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EUR/CHF

  • #14,181
  • Jan 18, 2015 7:40am Jan 18, 2015 7:40am
My SL at 1.1980 was filled,but the position was very small. They were bids reported until 1.1960. The factors may influence why a SL was not filled are
1. The position size
2. The brokers liquidity
3. ECN or MM
4. The speed of your Internet
Many Brokers,like Oanda, are so happy now because they are pure MMs.


Quoting Harris27
{quote} True, and not just say no liquidity bcoz of cap remove but prove it by showing data feed from lp's, where the 10 or more lp's brokers proudly show on it sites getting best prices from??? my orders must had been closed for minimum margin req. 1.1995 to 1.20 depending on chf value that time. so enough money left in balance. no liquidity there, how? when most stops must be placed there!!!
  • #14,182
  • Edited 8:12am Jan 18, 2015 7:56am | Edited 8:12am
Quoting OberonZhao
{quote} Please give us some hope, what reason do you think this pair will show some volatility? Thanks

To be honest, I hold this pair for 3 years, never so desperate like today.

Hope you did cover some when SNB first announced negative LIBOR rate. I did close the most part on that day and leave tiny bit to watch the movement.

Quoting Fxworld
My SL at 1.1980 was filled,but the position was very small. They were bids reported until 1.1960.
Same here for EURCHF
Attachment

But USDCHF was executed -52 pips
Attachment
  • #14,183
  • Jan 18, 2015 8:10am Jan 18, 2015 8:10am
FXCM is a ECN or a MM ?
FXDD is a ECN or a MM ?
  • #14,184
  • Jan 18, 2015 9:14am Jan 18, 2015 9:14am
Quoting MaxDoom
{quote} you are missing the point.... margin levels, stop levels etc.
.... that said I feel sorry for those that have lost money as a result of this
Forget it, he's into his hole for too long now, for him it's the SNB and the brokers who are to blame, not the fact that he as a trader had all opportunities beforehand to imagine and plan for tail-end-risk/black swan. Like it says in all the ads: FX trading carries high levels of risk. It's not just a joke.
Fail better.
  • #14,185
  • Jan 18, 2015 9:19am Jan 18, 2015 9:19am
Market Makers such as Oanda offset client positions against one another but if they are unbalanced they will hedge the difference in the real market hence why they came out better than the ECN brokers such as FXCM.
  • #14,186
  • Edited 12:01pm Jan 18, 2015 9:46am | Edited 12:01pm
Quoting Fxworld
My SL at 1.1980 was filled,but the position was very small. They were bids reported until 1.1960. The factors may influence why a SL was not filled are 1. The position size 2. The brokers liquidity 3. ECN or MM 4. The speed of your Internet Many Brokers,like Oanda, are so happy now because they are pure MMs. {quote}
This is my suspicion too. Those who have SL set just below 1.2000, 20-50 pips under, had their SL's hit with minimal slippage. So those who trade off longer term charts had SL's set 100+ pips away couldn't execute because all the Liquidity had dried up. This is how micro-market structure works. The people who had SL's within the range I stated above who got massive slippage, I suppose had brokers who had poor LP's. I would like to hear more about this from others about their trades being executed around this price.
By the way, did anyone have the DOM up during the time of the surprise announcement, it would be interesting to see how it looked just prior and how many resting orders sat just below 1.2000 to be absorbed by Stop losses....
I would also like to know how those who use EA's managed? Did your EA's trigger out trades? etc . . . .?
  • #14,187
  • Jan 18, 2015 10:50am Jan 18, 2015 10:50am
Quoting aetekef
I have negative cash balance in SAXO -62k. Traded options and got filled to stop out and they modified the deals. Is there any solution for that? Friday they call me about negative cash balance but i said it was incorrect. Someboby any information they will let off this payment as others do? If they not is it possibilty to probate this negative balance? If yes between SAXO and me will be on the Hungarian court? If danish court legitimate how can probate it in Hungary? I havent got any demand of payment from saxo. Thanks
I think the repricing of closed options by system is their weakest point. Even if they didn't have liquidity on the spot market price, that doesn't mean, that they could drastically change the value of underlying price for options. They are market maker for options by itself !
  • #14,188
  • Jan 18, 2015 1:04pm Jan 18, 2015 1:04pm
Am I alone in thinking this may be the mother of all stop-hunts in the long term up move?
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: Screenshot_2015-01-18-19-59-30.png Size: 115 KB
Where price is now, it has been before, and will be again.
  • #14,189
  • Edited 1:24pm Jan 18, 2015 1:12pm | Edited 1:24pm
Quoting MaxDoom
{quote} you are missing the point.... margin levels, stop levels etc. work fine when a market has liquidity.... but the orders are executed at the time the price is hit or exceeded, if at that point there is no liquidity to exit the position then you get filled at the best available price, in normal trading this is fine because slippage is minimal.... in this case we have the mother of all slippage.... a brokers obligation to trade your exit is just that, it is not their obligation to fill it at a certain price if the market has not liquidity to...
This is funny. All of us who trade safe and leveraged reasonably(far of eurchf trading) will 99% not use margin req. and stop out. We want it at times of high volatility or sudden dramatic change in market condition, if not at that time the broker will show its good quality service then when?? at normal market conditions hahaha

Some people are just bandwagoners, they saw nothing otherwise they were billionaires now, not commenting on this thread.

Margins tightening from some brokers were to protect themselves only, not bcoz they new something special.

If the IMF, ECB and big banks were surprised and lost 100s of millions then the smart axsx coming here to comment saying they knew and was clear must clearly work in place of draghi and lagarde not commenting here. But they were trashing the same 2 years ago when i was a money machine trading eurchf and thursday's loss didn't have real effect on my long term profitability from this pair
  • #14,190
  • Jan 18, 2015 1:14pm Jan 18, 2015 1:14pm
Quoting prutar
Good day to all. I am also a "victim" of SAXO. Actually, I am client of Saxo partner in small EU country, I had some long EURCHF spot trades with stops above 1.2 and I was short with multiple put options. At the time of the event, my spots got stopped above 1.2 and after 3 minutes the margin call closed all my put positions at acceptable price, that was valid at the time of transaction. That all left me with about 25 % of the account. The revisions that came at the evening left me with huge negative balance. I have started to communicate with their...
You are right, everybody tell them request to return the account to the amount before adjusment. I did the same, it wont stand up any court if even they do something. I am in the same situation. Keep in touch and write the happenings.
  • #14,191
  • Jan 18, 2015 1:16pm Jan 18, 2015 1:16pm
Quoting Fxworld
My SL at 1.1980 was filled,but the position was very small. They were bids reported until 1.1960. The factors may influence why a SL was not filled are 1. The position size 2. The brokers liquidity 3. ECN or MM 4. The speed of your Internet Many Brokers,like Oanda, are so happy now because they are pure MMs. {quote}
1. so the broker will tell me bcoz ur lot size is big couldn't fill it properly but only for small lot sizes!?

2. God knows this info!!

3. God knows this info too!! Maybe not both even hahaha

4. what if my platform was closed?!!
  • #14,192
  • Jan 18, 2015 1:19pm Jan 18, 2015 1:19pm
Quoting LarryDarrell
{quote} Forget it, he's into his hole for too long now, for him it's the SNB and the brokers who are to blame, not the fact that he as a trader had all opportunities beforehand to imagine and plan for tail-end-risk/black swan. Like it says in all the ads: FX trading carries high levels of risk. It's not just a joke.
Rest assured, adding thursday's loss, my long run profits from eurchf alone(not talking about my accounts for other pairs trading) worth more than accounts of all bandwagoners commenting on this thread

imagine and plan hahaha, this is why ur now a billionaire and commenting here too hahaha

FX high risk, thanks for reminding me, never knew this valuable info hahaha....OH remind Swatch and Nestle about this too hahaha
  • #14,193
  • Jan 18, 2015 1:19pm Jan 18, 2015 1:19pm
Quoting levinakit
Hi All, Are there any Singapore retail traders here that are facing issues with Saxo regarding either the CHF repricing quotes or negative balances? Some of us are looking to come together potentially to explore options and was wondering if others like to join us for a combined approach. If so, please email us at [email protected]
We can contact from many others country i think. Saxo against houndreds of thousends clients and we are all together against saxo bank.
  • #14,194
  • Jan 18, 2015 1:32pm Jan 18, 2015 1:32pm
Quoting Harris27
{quote} This is funny. All of us who trade safe and leveraged reasonably(far of eurchf trading) will 99% not use margin req. and stop out. We want it at times of high volatility or sudden dramatic change in market condition, if not at that time the broker will show its good quality service then when?? at normal market conditions hahaha Some people are just bandwagoners, they saw nothing otherwise they were billionaires now, not commenting on this thread. Margins tightening from some brokers were to protect themselves only, not bcoz they new something...
Harris, I think people are wondering why you are so upset about the snb? Especially since you claim that this did not affect your overall bottom line? People who trade real time did see something odd going on, but did not know what it was. Technical traders who follow their charts rather than their bias did have time to get short. The momo of the currency had been getting weaker since Wednesday.

Do not feel attacked. Some I think are just wondering why you are sooooo over the top angry about something that happens more often than you think.
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #14,195
  • Jan 18, 2015 1:34pm Jan 18, 2015 1:34pm
Quoting Harris27
{quote} This is funny. All of us who trade safe and leveraged reasonably(far of eurchf trading) will 99% not use margin req. and stop out. We want it at times of high volatility or sudden dramatic change in market condition, if not at that time the broker will show its good quality service then when?? at normal market conditions hahaha Some people are just bandwagoners, they saw nothing otherwise they were billionaires now, not commenting on this thread. Margins tightening from some brokers were to protect themselves only, not bcoz they new something...
they tighten margins due to increased risked from lack of liquidity and increased volatility, you are too much of a conspiracy nut
  • #14,196
  • Jan 18, 2015 1:40pm Jan 18, 2015 1:40pm
I made a comparison in terms and conditions of margins between 2 US Brokers and 2 Non-US brokers to show the difference between the good and the scam.

First comparison between Citifxpro and Oanda. Read for urself how each explains its margin conditions:

- CitiFxpro:

Automatic closeouts - important
CitiFX Pro calculates account value (consisting of the cash balance +/- unrealized profits/losses) on a continuous basis. The account value is compared to the margin requirements for all open positions to determine margin adequacy. If at any time the account value does not cover the margin requirements, CitiFX Pro shall commence the closing of all open positions. This process provides vital protection to our clients as well as Citi, and is a common practice across providers of margin FX trading and is required by regulation.
It is your responsibility to ensure that your account value at all times meets margin requirements. Clients are accountable for any losses associated with liquidated positions due to insufficient margin funds.


*Very clear, no philosophy style in explanation of its margin rules. Not even a mention of "if" market is very volatile we might not trigger close of all positions..blah blah. Instead they show it clear in black "If at any time the account value does not cover the margin requirements, CitiFX Pro shall commence the closing of all open positions."

------------------------------------------------------

- SCAM Oanda:

Margin Call: When losing positions result in account equity falling below the maintenance margin measured at 4:00PM ET daily, you will receive a margin call alert by email requiring you to deposit additional funds or close open positions so as to return your account equity to the Initial Margin value. An account whose value rises above the initial margin level during the trading day but falls below the maintenance margin level at the 4:00 PM ET measurement will be issued a margin call as a result of that measurement. A margin call is resolved only if the account margin is above the initial margin requirement at 4:00 PM ET.

OANDA will send daily margin call emails to accounts that fall below margin requirements at 4:00 PM ET. When an account remains undermargined for 7 consecutive trading days, all tradable open positions in the account will automatically close using the current fxTrade rates at the time of closing. Any remaining open positions will automatically close at the current fxTrade rate when the markets for those instruments re-open.

Liquidation Margin: The Liquidation Margin is equal to 50% of the Initial Margin.

Margin Closeout: If your account falls below the Liquidation Margin level, all of your open positions will be immediately liquidated. The fxTrade platform will try to alert customers who are signed in to the fxTrade platform when the Margin Closeout Value falls within 5% of a margin closeout, and again when the Margin Closeout Value falls within 2.5% of a margin closeout. When the Margin Closeout Value declines to half, or less than half, of the Margin Used, all tradable open positions in the account will automatically close using the current fxTrade rates at the time of closing. If trading is unavailable for certain open positions at the time of the margin closeout, those positions will remain open and the fxTrade platform will continue to monitor your margin requirements. When the markets reopen for the remaining open positions, another margin closeout may occur if your account remains undermargined.

Note: in a fast moving market, there may be little time between warnings, or there may not be sufficient time to warn you at all. Be mindful of the “Margin Closeout Percent” field in the Account Summary of the fxTrade user interface. The closer the Margin Closeout Percent is to 100%, the closer you are to a margin closeout.



*Actually, there are more philosophy paragraphs but don't want fill the post with it all especially it's a repeat of the above words.....

Most importantly Oanda does not mention the possibility of all open positions might not be closed at minimum margin requirement for any reason.

Guess why? Because this is prohibited by the regulators. A broker can not tell a client that there was no certain price in the market especially in london session!! and must prove it in details from its LP's, this is no joke that can pass easily for whatever reason!!



Continued......................

  • #14,197
  • Jan 18, 2015 1:41pm Jan 18, 2015 1:41pm
Before the floor I used to enjoy trading this pair.A dream pairing if you think about it. When the cap was introduced I took it off my charts.Think I might get interested again now.I opened a small long late Thursday but only because I expect it will have to correct short term.After it gets back near parity I'll bin it for a couple of weeks but I'm glad its now back in the market
Where price is now, it has been before, and will be again.
  • #14,198
  • Edited 2:17pm Jan 18, 2015 1:46pm | Edited 2:17pm
Quoting jmn5611
{quote} Harris, I think people are wondering why you are so upset about the snb? Especially since you claim that this did not affect your overall bottom line? People who trade real time did see something odd going on, but did not know what it was. Technical traders who follow their charts rather than their bias did have time to get short. The momo of the currency had been getting weaker since Wednesday. Do not feel attacked. Some I think are just wondering why you are sooooo over the top angry about something that happens more often than you think....
Simply, because Swiss NB scandal lost me money even if on the short run but still its money, I could had bought much properties with that amount instead
of the broker, market manipulators or maybe Swiss NB involved in a big conspiracy stealing it.

Technical traders had time hahaha...in one second, if brokers and LP's had no time to respect stops and had no liquidity that was dried up, traders had time to short what a bad joke!!!

So What happened last thursday happen more often!!! Many big companies, brokers, people bankrupted in one minute?!! Seriously are you talking real!?!
  • #14,199
  • Jan 18, 2015 1:56pm Jan 18, 2015 1:56pm
Quoting Harris27
{quote} Simply, because Swiss NB scandal lost me money even if on the short run but still its money, I could had bought much properties in that amount instead of the broker, market manipulators or maybe Swiss NB involved in a big conspiracy stealing it. Technical traders had time hahaha...in one second, if brokers and LP's had no time to respect stops and had no liquidity that was dried up, traders had time to short what a bad joke!!! So What happened last thursday happen more often!!! Many big companies, brokers, people bankrupted in one minute?!!...
Yes, technical traders had time to get short, there are other traders on this site that made money from this as well. So you are butthurt about losing money you did not have to lose, and so it's everybody's fault but your own. When you get serious about this business, you will eventually learn that that you live and die your own executive decisions. Stop blaming others for your losses.
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #14,200
  • Jan 18, 2015 2:03pm Jan 18, 2015 2:03pm
Comparison between 2 Non-US brokers Dukascopy and SCAM Hotforex:

- Dukascopy:

Minimum margin requirements

In order to protect clients from incurring liability above their equity and protect Dukascopy Bank SA from associated risks, the following minimum margin policy applies: The minimum equity requirement for the self-trading account is 100 CHF. For accounts with different base currency the minimum amount of equity is calculated at the exchange rate of the latest settlement. All open positions may be closed and the account may be blocked should the equity on the account reach the minimum margin requirement.

Margin call and margin cut policy

Margin call (Use of leverage >100%) means a situation where the margin requirements do not allow the client to increase exposure on his account. The client may only execute trades to reduce exposure, by closing or hedging the existing net positions. Despite the margin call level being reached, the positions will not be closed automatically. The automated system will cancel all placed bid/offer orders that can increase the exposure.

Margin cut or cut-off level (Use of leverage ≥ 200%) - if the Use of Leverage reaches or exceeds 200%, Dukascopy Bank has the right (but not the obligation) to fully or partially reduce the client's exposure by closing existing positions and/or by opening new positions in the opposite direction. Usually the system automatically reduces exposure so that the Use of Leverage is brought to approximately 100%. However, traders can select to fully close all open positions in case of a margin cut.

The client shall be solely responsible for maintaining sufficient margin in relation to the existing positions.

* Very Clear policy by Dukascopy, they assure of closing all positions at minimum margin requirement without attaching to it that they might not be able to do that "if" market face high volatility blah blah

------------------------------------------------------------------


- SCAM Hotforex:


The idea of margin trading is that your margin acts as a good faith deposit to secure the larger notional value of your position. Margin trading allows traders to hold a position much larger than their actual account value. HotForex offers Leverage of up to 1:1000 depending on the account type. Obviously, trading on margin comes with risk, since high leverage may work against you as much as it works for you. If account equity falls below margin requirements, the HotForex Trading Station will trigger an order to close all open positions. When positions have been over-leveraged or trading losses are incurred to the point that insufficient equity exists to maintain current open positions, a margin call will result, and open positions must be liquidated.
Please keep in mind that when the account's useable margin reaches zero, all open positions are triggered to close. The margin-call process is entirely electronic, and there is no discretion on HotForex's part as to the order in which trades are closed. Such discretion would require HotForex to actively monitor positions and accounts.
Although the margin call feature is designed to close positions when account equity falls below the margin requirements, there may be instances when liquidity does not exist at the exact margin call rate. As a result, account equity can fall below margin requirements at the time orders are filled, even to the point where equity account becomes negative. This is especially true during market gaps or volatile periods. HotForex will not hold traders responsible for deficit balances in this scenario, but clients should be aware that all funds on deposit in an account are subject to loss. Hotforex also recommends that traders use stop orders to limit downside risk instead of using a margin call as a final stop.
HotForex strongly recommends that traders maintain the appropriate amount of margin in their accounts at all times. You may request to change your margin requirement/leverage, which is subject to approval by HotForex. Margin requirements may be changed based on account size, simultaneous open positions, trading style, market conditions, and at the discretion of HotForex.
Account equity can fall below margin requirements at the time orders are filled, even to the point where equity account becomes negative. This is especially true during market gaps or volatile periods. HotForex will not hold traders responsible for deficit balances in this or any scenario, but clients should be aware that all funds on deposit in an account are subject to loss.

* if you understood hotforex manipulation I understood!!! They start with respecting of closing all positions if equity reach margin requirement to end it with repeated words of hurrying away from their responsibility under blah blah blah excuses to use it against their clients at anytime.

-------------------------------------

Conclusion: The broker that have no straight forward policy must be avoided by traders. This can be seen in saying the thing and its opposite and repeating the opposite more than the first just as SCAM hotforex have in its policy and Oanda do not respect margin req. despite no inclusion in its policy about rare cases of high volatility when it might not be able to respect its policy!!!
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