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  • #9,501
  • Edited 8:08am Oct 14, 2023 4:58am | Edited 8:08am
Quoting venkatredy
A final one for Venka if you are out there sir, I didn't reply sorry to your question about the FRACTAL behaviour of the markets. The fractal nature of the markets imo is that similar things happen, which look exactly the same, that occur over most of the chart timeframes. The Trap for traders is that the 'same thing' doesn't always happen across ALL the timeframes AT THE SAME TIME (this is a key to understanding fractals) ie what is happening on a 15m chart and a 1hr chart or a 4hr chart at the same time can be a DIFFERENT directional behaviour....
Fractals in nature is how a "visual pattern" repeats" over & over again no matter how much you zoom into or out from the main pattern.

It is a repeating pattern that you see in the form of trees. leaves, blood vessels, river deltas, even snowflakes.

On a chart we see Fractals in the form of Highs & Lows that repeat in all timeframes.

Fractal are defined as a single candle High or Low that has candles each side that have lower highs or Higher Lows forming a peak or trough.

The number of candles to each side in the fractal a pattern is a personal choice, minimum being at least 1 candle each side.

In trading we would pay more attention to a higher timeframe fractal when Price returns back to the same level, where we would expect
some type of reaction to that HTF fractal, and as our strategy dictates we would take action.

If an Uptrend is defined as market making higher highs & higher lows and Downtrend defined as Lower Lows & Lower Highs then :

Is this a monthly or 1 minute chart ? Which direction is the price trending and what timeframe, not always the same.

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It never gets easier, you just get better
  • #9,502
  • Edited 8:03am Oct 14, 2023 7:44am | Edited 8:03am
Quoting Shabs19
{quote} Which direction is the price trending and what timeframe, not always the same. {image}
Same Chart with major Fractals marked. Break Failure often called Fake Breakout or "Fakey"

In case you are wondering, it is a 1 minute chart for Crude, but equally it could have been an 15m or 4Hr. etc.

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It never gets easier, you just get better
  • #9,503
  • Oct 14, 2023 1:42pm Oct 14, 2023 1:42pm
Quoting Shabs19
{quote} Same Chart with major Fractals marked. Break Failure often called Fake Breakout or "Fakey" In case you are wondering, it is a 1 minute chart for Crude, but equally it could have been an 15m or 4Hr. etc. {image}
Hmmm....Food for thought there looking at those blue horizontals

Wife watching " Strictly"
Mew -allowed to surf web for duration of programme
every Saint has a past. Every Sinner has a Future
  • #9,504
  • Edited 2:31pm Oct 14, 2023 1:56pm | Edited 2:31pm
Quoting turnip15
{quote} Hmmm....Food for thought there looking at those blue horizontals Wife watching " Strictly" Mew -allowed to surf web for duration of programme
I don't have access to TV remote over the weekend, so I am in Desktop PC prison also.
You are probably also on Tea / Coffee Duty as well ......

I don't normally draw these lines, as there are structural levels already present, like PDH,PDL,PWH, PWL, Pivots etc.
I do like zones as they provide enough buffer to counter the spikes that happen around these lines/levels.

I tried to show @Venkatredy how Fractals can be observed with Price Action, so something seemingly random has Structure that can be traded.
It never gets easier, you just get better
  • #9,505
  • Oct 14, 2023 5:01pm Oct 14, 2023 5:01pm
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  • #9,506
  • Oct 14, 2023 5:01pm Oct 14, 2023 5:01pm
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  • #9,507
  • Oct 15, 2023 12:15am Oct 15, 2023 12:15am
Quoting Shabs19
{quote} Same Chart with major Fractals marked. Break Failure often called Fake Breakout or "Fakey" In case you are wondering, it is a 1 minute chart for Crude, but equally it could have been an 15m or 4Hr. etc. {image}
Thank you Shabs & T 721 for replying and i would like to know more reg Herd linked with fractal.
  • #9,508
  • Edited 5:08pm Oct 15, 2023 3:30am | Edited 5:08pm
Quoting venkatredy
{quote} Thank you Shabs & T 721 for replying and i would like to know more reg Herd linked with fractal.
The Herd is simply a term to describe a cluster of pending orders that are likely to accumulate above/below previous Fractal Highs & Lows, left by traders to catch any Breakouts and get into the trade early. This of course, provides an opportunity for those that anticipate this, or who can actually see these orders in the book (marketmakers) to exploit.

Very often a breakout is also followed by a retracement, targeting stoplosses (more pending orders) before reversing again and ccontinuing in the direction of the original breakout.

These areas are where many different traders will have different objectives, either getting into a new position or getting out of their trade using the levels as "targets". One thing is for sure, there will be increased activity around these "Previous" Fractal levels.

This is why the area would be a place aptly descibed, where the "Herd" gather, often meaning "Dumb" money that can be targeted by the profesionals. The Prey vs the Hunter.

Order clustering around "Round Numbers".

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It never gets easier, you just get better
  • #9,509
  • Oct 15, 2023 4:55pm Oct 15, 2023 4:55pm
Quoting venkatredy
{quote} Thank you Shabs & T 721 for replying and i would like to know more reg Herd linked with fractal.
The herd.

Think of a football match, big stadium.
The stadium is your chart.
You can’t see the pitch, only smart money can.
You have to choose which team to support but you don’t know which entrance to take.
You hear a big roar from one end of the stadium, you now know where to enter the stadium, you choose the entrance, you walk into the stadium and join all of the fans standing at one end of the stadium.
You look at the scoreboard knowing you have just scored.
The score is 1-0 to the smart money standing at the other end.
You chose wrong.
You we’re enticed, duped with the herd.
  • #9,510
  • Oct 15, 2023 5:17pm Oct 15, 2023 5:17pm
Quoting moodybot
{quote} The herd. Think of a football match, big stadium. The stadium is your chart. You can’t see the pitch, only smart money can. You have to choose which team to support but you don’t know which entrance to take. You hear a big roar from one end of the stadium, you now know where to enter the stadium, you choose the entrance, you walk into the stadium and join all of the fans standing at one end of the stadium. You look at the scoreboard knowing you have just scored. The score is 1-0 to the smart money standing at the other end. You chose wrong....
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It never gets easier, you just get better
  • #9,511
  • Oct 15, 2023 8:05pm Oct 15, 2023 8:05pm
TP taken early, ie locking in a trade (for tp).

Not waiting for the target to actually get taken
(someone once said because of this I wasn't even trading to my target views lol ).

Lock trades, ie TP in the a/c.

Kev/Blue calls it "Ringing the Register"

Back for Franky, see what goes on. No fomo, no greed, just tp and then "do something else with your day imho".

.
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  • #9,512
  • Oct 15, 2023 8:11pm Oct 15, 2023 8:11pm
Quoting moodybot
{quote} The herd. Think of a football match, big stadium. The stadium is your chart. You can’t see the pitch, only smart money can. You have to choose which team to support but you don’t know which entrance to take. You hear a big roar from one end of the stadium, you now know where to enter the stadium, you choose the entrance, you walk into the stadium and join all of the fans standing at one end of the stadium. You look at the scoreboard knowing you have just scored. The score is 1-0 to the smart money standing at the other end. You chose wrong....
Best Explanation Ever
Markets are Mirrors,,Mastery of craft is mastery of self
  • #9,513
  • Oct 15, 2023 8:18pm Oct 15, 2023 8:18pm
Quoting TimeTells
TP taken early, ie locking in a trade (for tp). Not waiting for the target to actually get taken (someone once said because of this I wasn't even trading to my target views lol ). Lock trades, ie TP in the a/c. Kev/Blue calls it "Ringing the Register" Back for Franky, see what goes on. No fomo, no greed, just tp and then "do something else with your day imho". . {image}

KA_CHING Well done Pete !
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Of course this popped up in my search...and I thought yep I remember seeing some of these National Cash Register Co. machines !

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Markets are Mirrors,,Mastery of craft is mastery of self
  • #9,514
  • Oct 15, 2023 8:25pm Oct 15, 2023 8:25pm
Quoting bluesteele
{quote} KA_CHING Well done Pete ! {image} Of course this popped up in my search...and I thought yep I remember seeing some of these National Cash Register Co. machines ! {image}

Cheers Kev, much appreciated pal.

I know the cash register game well,
At one point I was programming Point Of Sale gear just for a while for a wholesaler to business operators, who then sold to the public.

National hahaaa.

Well it WAS NCR who first came up with the cash register back in the early 1900's (???? dont quote me on the date lol)

NCR made it on behalf of a Shop Owner lol who had an inkling one of his staff was "tickling the till"
Thus the day X & Z reads for an End Of Day Balance Report before anyone could go home.
Sticky Fingers was the reason for the creation of the humble cash register,
who would have thought
  • #9,515
  • Oct 15, 2023 9:01pm Oct 15, 2023 9:01pm
Quoting TimeTells
TP taken early, ie locking in a trade (for tp). Not waiting for the target to actually get taken (someone once said because of this I wasn't even trading to my target views lol ). Lock trades, ie TP in the a/c. Kev/Blue calls it "Ringing the Register" Back for Franky, see what goes on. No fomo, no greed, just tp and then "do something else with your day imho". . {image}
TPs,,, another important point in the trade process...It is a process with an UNDETERMINED OUTCOME on ANY individual trade... IF anyone tells you different
they are full of shit. Just ask them why they did not put 100% of every dollar they can get ahold of..Borrow from the bank family friends sell your house and go
all in,,,, Ya i didn't think so....

As Pete said he's not waiting and took the 11pips...We all have seen many Pete posts and what his normal target for a days work >>15 pips or so...so he banked 75% of his daily goal,,,, That's GOOD!!!!

We get caught up in Chasing pips.. I know I do and have...I would venture I have lost several thousand pips in the past year alone from the greed of chasing "pips"
I cant count how many times i've been up 25 50 75+++ and given all of it back..most of it..or even stopped out for a loss.... That hurts..

Why do/did I do that.... Ego. greed etc..purely psychological reasons. Anyways didn't mean to discuss myself personally but here we are ...
"where ever you go, there you are" the man in the mirror is always there..

Yep made a few boatloads and given back a boatload lol... Anyways Blue 2.2.1 has emerged and has changed his risk mgmt trade mgmt upside down after
needlessly giving too much back....Waiting for that target that a lot of times does not come...

NOW some will say ahhh you never go broke taking profits...well it depends on your whole trading plan...some can go broke by ringing the register too soon,,
but you need a large data set of trades under your belt to figure that out... Far too many 10R 20R type of bullshit hype traders out there nowadays... Twitter
is full of them..I ask them ...How many trades did you lose before you banged that one out? If it was so GREAT why didn't you load the Boat ? ahhh yes
I thought so strikes again....

I had an old futures trading buddy that told me "_ _ _ _ _, Ring the Register !! " always thought I was smarter than that... NAH Nope !
He came from a background of trading the ES full size contracts ...and banking a few pts a day...2 ,4 ,8 on a big day !...

Theres a daytrader Corey Mitchell,,,awesome guy..day trades EU only (also stocks and swings) but daytrades the EU on the 1min.... Old school "REAL PROP"
trader been doing this FT for 20+ yrs... His TARGETS on the EU.. 4-8 pips a day.... AHHH Corey My Man you should have held for 15 or 20 you Punter !

MMMmmm nope... hes trading according to his plan plain and simple... Can you imagine 4-8pips... man I can sneeze that ! Yep well try it with proper risk mgmt.
Try it with a 2 or 3 or 4 pip SL and see how consistent you can be... Say each pip is $100-$250 or more ,,What if you have 5 straight days of losses at max size ?

Harping on as nothing is as easy as it seems...and we are all different trading very differently from each other... Trading is as unique as the individual No two traders trade exactly the same.....So save the judgements for the guy in the mirror...

Think my rant is over ??? lost track of my theme here haha...

Wouldnt it be great to say most days..."Had a good day trading guys !!!! ....Rang the Register for 4 pips today ! " BOOM !
Can the guy in the mirror handle that ?

Cheers
Blue

I say all of this as a rhetorical question to my guy in the mirror,,,me

(these are my favorite posts...ones where I just write it and dont go back and proof and edit..just spit it out in the order it comes out... ) Cheers
Markets are Mirrors,,Mastery of craft is mastery of self
  • #9,516
  • Oct 15, 2023 9:22pm Oct 15, 2023 9:22pm
I can also fully understand a reason many traders are trading to the highest pip profit TP they might achieve with each trade.

We usually all begin with minor size accounts to test the waters of the markets.

To build higher a/c sizes (outside of deposits) we do ‘need’ higher pip results just to accelerate the a/c building process.
Which can become a double edged sword many might agree.

But if a TP is the actual aim, and not the target or highest TP level, then compounding all of your smaller win $$$'s also accelerates a/c growth.

At the end of the day, if we were initially seeking 45 pips a day from our trades to satisfy our net $$ results,
then when we have finally tripled our a/c size and then also tripled our initial trade lot size then …

We will only need 15 pips a day to get exactly the same $$ return from our initial 45 pips requirement.
(a successful & consistent trader might then later go back to chasing their 45 pips, why not)

That is the maths that I like to contemplate within our markets.

The trading itself then only usually needs to be between whatever two targets you choose for yourself,
or that the market chooses for you with structure & structure break/retests.

Keep it simple imo.

Trade safe, trade well all.
  • #9,517
  • Oct 15, 2023 9:49pm Oct 15, 2023 9:49pm
Quoting bluesteele
{quote} TPs,,, another important point in the trade process...It is a process with an UNDETERMINED OUTCOME on ANY individual trade... IF anyone tells you different they are full of shit. Just ask them why they did not put 100% of every dollar they can get ahold of..Borrow from the bank family friends sell your house and go all in,,,, Ya i didn't think so.... As Pete said he's not waiting and took the 11pips...We all have seen many Pete posts and what his normal target for a days work >>15 pips or so...so he banked 75% of his daily goal,,,,...
Why dont you both

  1. https://assets.faireconomy.media/nfs...ar744045_1.gif TimeTells

get on zoom with me sometime. Maybe later this week if you guys have time

Let me know, just dm me and see if we can arrange a suitable time. Gotta get to sleep, 3.50am here

  • #9,518
  • Oct 15, 2023 10:02pm Oct 15, 2023 10:02pm
Quoting bluesteele
{quote} Best Explanation Ever
  • #9,519
  • Oct 15, 2023 10:15pm Oct 15, 2023 10:15pm
Quoting T721
{quote}
Why dont you both https://assets.faireconomy.media/nfs...ar744045_1.gif TimeTells get on zoom with me sometime. Maybe later this week if you guys have time Let me know, just dm me and see if we can arrange a suitable time. Gotta get to sleep, 3.50am here
Rest is best T
  • #9,520
  • Oct 15, 2023 11:07pm Oct 15, 2023 11:07pm
Quoting TimeTells
TP taken early, ie locking in a trade (for tp). Not waiting for the target to actually get taken (someone once said because of this I wasn't even trading to my target views lol ). Lock trades, ie TP in the a/c. Kev/Blue calls it "Ringing the Register" Back for Franky, see what goes on. No fomo, no greed, just tp and then "do something else with your day imho". . {image}
The spread, no commission for GBPJPY on my broker (regulated in Canada) is 2.3 to 3.0…. I couldn’t profit from scalps such as this.
What is the spread/commission on your end? I am unable to open account in other regulatory countries due to draconian rules…. In once sense it protects clients from brokers, but gives them a sort of monopoly. Kind of sucks because I like the way the guppy moves.
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