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Quoting ryuryu
{quote} Sure my friend you are welcome! Ask, research, think, try! Together we can make a lot of cool things
Awesome! let's ride on! let's make it! But you are sensei pls?
Ok let me try be as simple as my understanding and come with a general statement/question:
The closing of a market draws liquidity and volume out of that market, which is opposite to the previous general move preceding the close due to most of that move either was sellside liquidity or buyside liquidity, thus that major component of liquidity is gone causing a reversal of the previous move about 20 pips before continuation or flat. Thus there is an imbalance in liquidity since the major driving force is gone(main orders terminated).
True or false?
Quoting ryuryu
I think if some don't like my thread he can go and f*ck himself. I have no time and desire to waste my time for such a stupid greedy assholes. As I said many times: I'm not selling anything. There are no links. I even can't post link for my FREE bots on github because greedy idiots always complain. I don't need to sell anything. I'm a trader. But you stupid whiners who have not achieved anything in their lives continue your whining and further. I don't care. One more time: IF YOU DON'T LIKE ME OR MY THREAD...
A little bird sent me the below screenshots
So taking your words Ryuryu... Criticize everything Dont trust anyone...
I decided to share the following....
I gather its a screenshot of your Discord..and you telling traders where to go to purchase your indicators...

Obviously this is your website...

But since you say you dont sell anything That you dont need to sell anything (I guess not selling to you means you actually dont post links on FF)....
Im wondering why you just dont share your indicators out in the open for everyone?

Is it that TV might ban you for trying to get around you being commercial and not wanting to pay the monthly fees to share or should I say Sell your indicators?

I guess sort of like you being commercial here... I think @PayitForward was correct and you should be in the commercial area...quite obvious after seeing what I was given.....
Funnel readers to your discord,,, funnel discord users to your website and sell indicators for $69-$117 month.. (not a bad Gig)

But... if your indicators are so dazzling...im wondering why you have to average down time and time again if they are so accurate ? (save that for another time)

Anyways...im only posting this since I saw your quoted post where you say that you dont sell anything..
I dont like liars and i think they should be called out..when they are obviously spreading bullshit as you certainly appear to be doing...

Cheers
Blue


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The Best Loser Wins
Quoting bluesteele
Is it that TV might ban you for trying to get around you being commercial and not wanting to pay the monthly fees to share or should I say Sell your indicators?
You registered since 2007, but still don't know tradingview house rules and even don't know how subscriptions works and what is the difference between them. Go study it first and then come here and start posting again. Your post is absolute bullshit and nonsense.

Quoting bluesteele
Im wondering why you just dont share your indicators out in the open for everyone?
Because I don't want you to have my indicator. I made it. I spent my time and energy for that and I don't want you to have it in any case. I don't like you. You are scammer and cheater. You don't need my indicators. And I'll never give it to you. Go to your idiotic thread and scam people there with your fancy colored lines. You are not welcome here.

Quoting bluesteele
an you for trying to get around you being commercial and not wanting to pay the monthly fees to share or should I say Sell your indicators? I guess sort of like you being commercial here... I think @PayitForward was correct and you should be in the commercial area...quite obvious after seeing what I was given.....
I'm not selling anything here on FF. There are even no links to my website or even to my github. So if you have found it somehow it is your problem, not mine. Rules are rules. I see you like to cheat everywhere but FF rules are like a rock! You can't cheat it!

Quoting bluesteele
if your indicators are so dazzling...im wondering why you have to average down time and time again if they are so accurate ? (save that for another time) Anyways...
Who said that? You? Then you are liar and scammer. You are trying to ruin my thread with fake statements. And I know why. Because you fail in trading since 2007. And still no profits. That's why guys like you go crazy then you see successful traders.

For last year I have learned python from scratch, created several bots for crypto, dashboards and scripts. Started my own github. Created website with live data from crypto exchange, created discord chats, created tradingview pine script indicators. But tell me please and what have you (registered from 2007) achieved? Have you learned how to change the color of the lines on the chart? Or still no progress?

Don't cry dear, take your pills, go to your thread, draw your fancy colored and post nonsense and bullshit again and again. This is the way!
Observer effect
Quoting bluesteele
{quote} A little bird sent me the below screenshots So taking your words Ryuryu... Criticize everything Dont trust anyone... I decided to share the following.... I gather its a screenshot of your Discord..and you telling traders where to go to purchase your indicators... Obviously this is your website... But since you say you dont sell anything That you dont need to sell anything (I guess not selling to you means you actually dont post links on FF).... Im wondering why you just dont share your indicators out in the open for everyone? Is it that...
Please don't come in here and attack RyuRyu, if Ryu don't wanna share the hard work to anyone you should respect that.
And personal finance is none of your business, RyuRyu don't need to elaborate any of this, we don't know anything. Should you write an account statement before everytime you write a comment here?

If you are a successful trader, let us small people have a chance to develop too. Don't attack from top down, dont attack the small people.
Quoting Ferna
{quote} Awesome! let's ride on! let's make it! But you are sensei pls? Ok let me try be as simple as my understanding and come with a general statement/question: The closing of a market draws liquidity and volume out of that market, which is opposite to the previous general move preceding the close due to most of that move either was sellside liquidity or buyside liquidity, thus that major component of liquidity is gone causing a reversal of the previous move about 20 pips before continuation or flat. Thus there is an imbalance in liquidity...
I'll say True but thats not the whole story.

There is always a battle everyday and every moment to see who is stronger - current Limit orders or current Market orders.
When Executed orders are strong (CME data on Gold +333 contracts a minute) Market Orders dominate and forces price with its bias
When Executed orders are weak (CME data on Gold -333 contracts a minute) Limit orders dominate and forces price with its bias.

Therefore when liquidity leaves the market, we are left with a market controlled by Limit order Bias.

Once the money is gone, there will generally be an imbalance on the books to one side.

PRICE WILL NOW HAVE A BIAS AGAINST THE SIDE WITH MOST LIQUIDITY
Meaning if more bearish limit orders sit on the chart, price will turn bullish.

Cheers
Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
Quoting RickM
{quote} I'll say True but thats not the whole story. There is always a battle everyday and every moment to see who is stronger - current Limit orders or current Market orders. When Executed orders are strong (CME data on Gold +333 contracts a minute) Market Orders dominate and forces price with its bias When Executed orders are weak (CME data on Gold -333 contracts a minute) Limit orders dominate and forces price with its bias. Therefore when liquidity leaves the market, we are left with a market controlled by Limit order Bias. Once the money is...
Hi RickM,
could you perhaps illustrate this with one or more pictures? It would be great!
Quoting zego
{quote} Hi RickM, could you perhaps illustrate this with one or more pictures? It would be great!
S&P Futures Chart after New York Open on a day they are closed lol

Anyway, here the volume is low with Limit orders having the balance of power.

So an imbalance of excess Selling Limit orders drags price up, then when it flips to excess of Buying Limit orders - Price goes down
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Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
Quoting RickM
{quote} S&P Futures Chart after New York Open on a day they are closed lol Anyway, here the volume is low with Limit orders having the balance of power. So an imbalance of excess Selling Limit orders drags price up, then when it flips to excess of Buying Limit orders - Price goes down {image}
Hi RickM,

the picture is fantastic, thank you very much!
This shows that I, as an indicator trader, still have a lot to learn. Is this the entire dashboard you use to make your decision on a particular instrument?

Is there any knowledge base that can lead a future volume/imbalance... trader to a higher level from the beginning?
Quoting RickM
{quote} S&P Futures Chart after New York Open on a day they are closed lol Anyway, here the volume is low with Limit orders having the balance of power. So an imbalance of excess Selling Limit orders drags price up, then when it flips to excess of Buying Limit orders - Price goes down {image}
hello sir ,

thank you for sharing your panel.
i am really trying the last days to decrypt the very interesting thread. Still on the early steps of the puzzle
So just a verification question : whenever low volume we never trade the delta imbalance because with low volume there is not enough „power“ or „momentum“ for any serious move so now the orderbook is now deciding how the price will move and following the imbalance
Will this rule also work in cryptos on the 1M tf ?
I am asking since I use TradingView and although I have a CME data sub I cannot get the info of the orderbook but only the „correct“ volume readings
cryptos have a free orderbook
thank you in advance for your time

BR
Pap
Quoting papadas
So just a verification question : whenever low volume we never trade the delta imbalance because with low volume there is not enough „power“ or „momentum“ for any serious move
No, no, no my friend, just opposite! If there are no volume then it is too easy to push the price higher/lower. That's why it is too dangerous to trade low vol assets. Also you can trigger stops yourself too. If you push the button and execute market order you can "eat" all the thin orderbook, trigger stops and it will cause stop cascades.
BTW This is the reason why red news time is so volatile. Because no volume, no traders around. That's why price jumps so hard. People think that red news price movements are so hard because of news. But they are so hard because there are no volume in the market at that moment. This is great "cheat" for big player - remove all the competitors and leave only crying babies - guys who are in positions with tight stops around easy target

Think about market in words of limit orders, market orders and stops only. There are no other "power". Only these 3 things. For example there is no such a thing like "support" or "resistance". All we have is limit orders in the orderbook and market orders executed. And hidden stops of course - the hardest part of the party

I have posted that article several times. But it is too great and I can post it again and again.
https://blog.bitmex.com/scamwicks-and-stop-cascades/
Read it. Re-read it. Read it more and more. Again and again. Then Read again. And then once more. In fact that is all you need to understand how market works.
Observer effect
Quoting RickM
{quote} I'll say True but thats not the whole story. There is always a battle everyday and every moment to see who is stronger - current Limit orders or current Market orders. When Executed orders are strong (CME data on Gold +333 contracts a minute) Market Orders dominate and forces price with its bias When Executed orders are weak (CME data on Gold -333 contracts a minute) Limit orders dominate and forces price with its bias. Therefore when liquidity leaves the market, we are left with a market controlled by Limit order Bias. Once the money is...
I'll have to break it down, all these terms are new understanding to me.

Limit order: an order that is executed at a fixed price. Market order: an order that is executed at current price.
"Market order" = I delete Limit orders when i'm around.
"Limit order" = I slow down Market orders, and just sit around when Market order is not around.

"Limit order": I am on both sides of price. If i am strong on the buy side(bottom) people want to sell for a bit higher than what the buyers are offering, thus price will go higher. Since i have so many buyers on the bottom, there is no1 rich enough to buy past me, thus price doesn't fall, it will eventually develop into buyer bias.
If my orders are strong on the sell side(top) no-one can buy past me, i got to much to sell at this price. So people will seek to sell for lower prices, and as price falls more of the buyers are forced to sell or become losers quick, which speeds up the lowering of sell prices.

So i am thinking limit orders as blocks, which price cannot go past. So you are saying that when markets orders are in place, it's alot easier for price to move past them cause of the increased liquidity. When market closes, the market orders are not gone, but the Limit orders have a much greater effect? market orders to small to go past. - Thus when it hits a Big wall it tends to run in the other direction?

But to clarify for my teaching: When you say "Bearish limit order" will turn price bullish. In my head "bearish" means that the limit order has more sellers than buyers, thus creating a wall of sellers to keep price from climbing higher. How can that be bullish? every time price hits that level there won't be enough buyers to get past that.

"PRICE WILL NOW HAVE A BIAS AGAINST THE SIDE WITH MOST LIQUIDITY": Price will move towards the side with most orders? or from the side with most orders?

Thanks for your answer I'm slowly getting there, i'm still on Demo
Quoting RickM
{quote} S&P Futures Chart after New York Open on a day they are closed lol Anyway, here the volume is low with Limit orders having the balance of power. So an imbalance of excess Selling Limit orders drags price up, then when it flips to excess of Buying Limit orders - Price goes down {image}
I don't understand how to read this chart.
How can excess selling limit orders drag price up? shouldn't they block price from climbing higher?
Limit orders are wishes. Market orders are acts (moves, activity). Stops are market orders.

For example current price is 22 000$. I wish to sell at 22 222$, you wish to sell at 22 444$.

So we have

Limit Sell 1 22 444$
Limit Sell 1 22 222$
--> current price 22 000$

But RickM wants to buy at 19 999$ and another trader at 19 888$, then

Limit Sell (1) 22 444$
Limit Sell (1) 22 222$
--> current price 22 000$
Limit Buy (1) 19 999$
Limit Buy (1) 19 888$

But as you see that make to sense. Because the price will stay at 22 000$ forever until some will decide to buy or sell using market order.

Now tell me please what will happen if some will hit market buy with 1 lot size?
You think that it will fill first Limit Sell (1) 22 222$? Yes, it can be. But it can be not.
There can be hidden 100 lot size Stop Loss at 22 111$.

Then tell me please what will happen? It will crash the orderbook and wipe everything out. Because Stops are market orders and they search for limit orders to fill.

So in this example the formula is this:
If makret orders < limit orders AND stops = price will not move (I call it "hit the wall").

How to use walls? If you are in profit and the price hit the wall - exist using market order (but first calculate if it will stay in profit if it wipes limit orders ahead).
Or you can "Wait" until the wall will be eaten. But this can never happen and trading is not about waiting and praying. It is pure math
Observer effect
Quoting papadas
{quote} hello sir , thank you for sharing your panel. i am really trying the last days to decrypt the very interesting thread. Still on the early steps of the puzzle So just a verification question : whenever low volume we never trade the delta imbalance because with low volume there is not enough „power“ or „momentum“ for any serious move so now the orderbook is now deciding how the price will move and following the imbalance Will this rule also work in cryptos on the 1M tf ? I am asking since I use TradingView and although I have a CME...
Hi Papadas

Just adding a twist to Ryuryus comments because we trade against HFT algo's so we need to have a smart approach.

Kind of close papadas, the orderbook on low volume controls direction but it doesn't mean it follows imbalance. Imbalance here may just be the only liquidity available to trade.
For example if a big player has 500 contracts to trade in one hit. This trader fears sweeping too far as it puts then in a bad finanical position. If the imbalance favours the Selling Limit orders, one 500 contract Long trade would clear out all levels till the order was executed which may be 2 or 3 ticks. If this same trade tried a short with a Selling imbalance above - they may sweep the market for 15 levels down which would put their position in a major loss (due to a spike backwards against position a split second later - often known as a reclaim).
This trader could not afford to go short and therefore is forced to go Long.

Therefore an Bearish Imbalance in the Order Books during a low volume period = Bullish Trend.

How do I trade this.

I trade against the Imbalance of limit orders during low volume periods.
Check my results for the first four days of 2023 in a previous post to see how trading low volume periods can be profitable.

But this thread is really focussed on high volume periods and following market orders.
So now we have two plays, a strategy to trade high volume periods and a strategy to trade low volume periods.

Cheers
Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
Quoting Ferna
{quote} I don't understand how to read this chart. How can excess selling limit orders drag price up? shouldn't they block price from climbing higher?
I'll pm you
Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
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Let's make a competition - Crypto Vol Tournament!

1. Create bybit acc
2. Deposit 10$
3. Send me read-only API keys

When everyone is ready we start trading for 1 day since UTC0.
At 23:00 UTC we check the results.

I'll create a wep-page or telegram bot where we can check live results.

Rules are: no deposits allowed to cover losses during trading hours. You can trade manually or using algo trading. All allowed.
Any assets, futures perpetual.
At 23:00 UTC all positions must be close. We check "available balance" value to get the winner.

There will be a prize - 3 month subscription to all my tradingview Delta Volume indicators.
The prize for second place - sub for 2 mo, third place - for 1 mo.
Additional prize for the fastest liquidation. Trader who will be liquidated first will get my personal 1 hour mentoring haha in discord

Lets ROCK!

Who with play with me?
Observer effect
Quoting ryuryu
{image} Let's make a competition - Crypto Vol Tournament! 1. Create bybit acc 2. Deposit 10$ 3. Send me read-only API keys When everyone is ready we start trading for 1 day since UTC0. At 23:00 UTC we check the results. I'll create a wep-page or telegram bot where we can check live results. Rules are: no deposits allowed to cover losses during trading hours. You can trade manually or using algo trading. All allowed. Any assets, futures perpetual. At 23:00 UTC all positions must be close. We check "available balance" value to get the winner. There...
They won't take my CAD $.
Quoting RickM
{quote} Hi Papadas Just adding a twist to Ryuryus comments because we trade against HFT algo's so we need to have a smart approach. Kind of close papadas, the orderbook on low volume controls direction but it doesn't mean it follows imbalance. Imbalance here may just be the only liquidity available to trade. For example if a big player has 500 contracts to trade in one hit. This trader fears sweeping too far as it puts then in a bad finanical position. If the imbalance favours the Selling Limit orders, one 500 contract Long trade would clear out...
HellO Rick,

thank you for your detailed answer.

To sum it up so I can verify if I am on the same the same page:

1) Low Volume Conditions (Limit orders > Market orders)- The BIG guys will trade in the direction of the most liquidity so they will trade on the side of the Limit order that are more because of "security" reasons" as you mentioned above
So if Sell-ASK-Bearish LIMIT Orders > BUY-BID-BULISH Limit orders you will follow the Big Guys and also trade with a BULLISH order that means you BUY right?
So if Sell-ASK-Bearish LIMIT Orders < BUY-BID-BULISH Limit orders you will follow the Big Guys and also trade with a BEARISH order that means you SELL right?
IF I am Correct with the Above at which TimeFame will you apply the above strategy . We are talking again about TFs <=1M?

2) High Volume Conditions (Limit orders < Market orders). Market orders prevail the Market.
The Essence of the strategy is to wait for consecutive and high Deltas (3 or more in a row deltas in one direction and when it flips wait for the delta to close in the opposite directions (entry confirmation and then enter the market in the direction of the Flipped delta.
Is this the basic framework to watch out for? For this strategy I am pretty sure that it is to be applied on <=1M TF ?

Hope you can answer with yes or no to my questions

BR
Pap
There can't be limit orders > market orders or <
market orders use limit orders to execute (to fill)

If there will be a situation if there are no limit orders left, then market order will just be partially filled or canceled (if fill-o-kill type initiated)

Orders has several types: they are fill-o-kill (FOK), Immediate-or-cancel (IOC) and good-till-cancel (GTC). There are some other types, but these are major types.
FOK is good if you want to execute whole amount at the price. If no liquidity it will cancel.
IOC is about time. And GTC is "forever young" - basic type.
Observer effect
Quoting ryuryu
There can't be limit orders > market orders or < market orders use limit orders to execute (to fill) If there will be a situation if there are no limit orders left, then market order will just be partially filled or canceled (if fill-o-kill type initiated) Orders has several types: they are fill-o-kill (FOK), Immediate-or-cancel (IOC) and good-till-cancel (GTC). There are some other types, but these are major types. FOK is good if you want to execute whole amount at the price. If no liquidity it will cancel. IOC is about time. And GTC is "forever...
thank you Ryu for clarifying it.
maybe was not expressing the idea correctly. What I meant with limit>market and limit<market was low and high volume. Thank u however for the clarification. Apart from that are the other statements “correct” or not really .

btw thank you for sharing the resource on orderbook and volume . It is really helpful
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