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  • #432,201
  • Jun 12, 2016 2:12am Jun 12, 2016 2:12am
Quoting Jfx
{quote} The EU is undemocratic. The Magna Carta isn't window dressing. It was a hard fought and won cornerstone of democracy. Giving up sovereignty for short term benefits is like giving away your country for a handful of beads. 55% of UK trade is with the rest of the world and growing. And the Eurozone will want to continue trade after a Brexit. The idea that they will have the upper hand is pure fear mongering on behalf of those who benefit from the Eurozone socialist state. The UK is the second largest importer of German cars after the US and...
We are not giving up sovereignty but pooling it for many good reasons.

Will you be advocating removing the UK from NATO, United Nations, the WTO and the Commonwealth and demand the tearing up of 1000s of international treaties to which we are currently party, given how undemocratic and non-transparent they are? We are a strong sovereign country within the EU. We decide our fiscal and monetary policy, education, health, housing, transport and defence (and many more). In terms of a democratic deficit, the UK has the House of Lords, the FPTP (first past the post) electoral system, where the Conservatives are in power with only 25% of the electorate voting for them. We have the BOE, also unelected and powerful numbers of unelected civil servants.

We are not in the euro, the major cause for the extent of Greece's problems, and have no intention of joining.

No, they (the EU) could not create a crisis based on bad terms dictated by Brussels, given we have our own currency, our own central bank, a floating exchange rate and a government which only borrow in its own currency. This is basic economics.
-
You support the Switzerland model for the UK? Switzerland's services (over 70% of its economy) isn't fully covered. Financial services (a power sector in the UK as well as Switzerland) isn't fully covered. Switzerland has to pay fees to the EU and accepts EU legislation (over which it has zero say) and, crucially, it has to accept free movement of people. The Swiss model is covered by 120 bilateral agreements which took years to negotiate. How would this be an improvement to what the UK has now?

I prefer our current arrangement, where the UK has commissioners, MEPs and a seat at the EC.

TTIP is being derailed thanks to public protest in EU countries - now that's democracy, the will of the people. Whereas the Conservative government in the UK are so pro-TTIP.
  • #432,202
  • Edited 4:23am Jun 12, 2016 2:42am | Edited 4:23am
When the UK joined the economic union the terms were purely economic. What you're discounting is the mission creep towards a central governing body with fiscal controls that directly affect UK autonomy. NATO, the UN, WTO, or any other organization the UK belongs to doesn't have the reach or dictate over the UK's internal affairs and industries that the EU is slowly gaining. The fact we're stuck with unelected officials in the BOE isn't a strong argument for giving control over our lives to EU leaders we don't elect too.

When I spoke of manufactured crisis, that doesn't apply to the Euro as in Greece's case, but through regulatory hegemony, where the UK loses it's productive independence and competitiveness, which can lead to the same results of loss of sovereignty. If you chose not to see what's happening as an integration process or it's longer term ramifications, that's your choice. The process is only partially complete, so UK independence is only partially eroded. For now.

TTIP was passed by the MEPs on May 29th. It wasn't derailed. Besides, votes don't matter to the EU, so your comment, "now that's democracy" isn't true. The EU ignored national democratic decisions with the French and Dutch referendums on the proposed EU constitution, Ireland’s initial “No” to the Lisbon treaty, the Greek referendum of 2015, and the recent Netherlands Ukraine referendum. Now that's NOT democracy, if you're honest about what's really happening.This discussion is probably a waste of time because the European Union will eventually fail whether or not the UK remains. Besides, it's too nice a day to waste it discussing gloomy European politics.

Quoting gammase1
{quote} We are not giving up sovereignty but pooling it for many good reasons. Will you be advocating removing the UK from NATO, United Nations, the WTO and the Commonwealth and demand the tearing up of 1000s of international treaties to which we are currently party, given how undemocratic and non-transparent they are? We are a strong sovereign country within the EU. We decide our fiscal and monetary policy, education, health, housing, transport and defence (and many more). In terms of a democratic deficit, the UK has the House of Lords, the FPTP...
  • #432,203
  • Jun 12, 2016 4:43am Jun 12, 2016 4:43am
Quoting Jfx
When the UK joined the economic union the terms were purely economic. What you're discounting is the mission creep towards a central governing body with fiscal controls that directly affect UK autonomy. NATO, the UN, WTO, or any other organization the UK belongs to doesn't have the reach or dictate over the UK's internal affairs and industries that the EU is slowly gaining. The fact we're stuck with unelected officials in the BOE isn't a strong argument for giving control over our lives to EU leaders we don't elect too. When I spoke of manufactured...
The TTIP has to be ratified by all 28 parliaments before it comes into effect. So it has not passed as it has to pass a democratic process. The very fact that we are having this referendum shows how sovereign we are. Even if we vote to remain, there is nothing stopping another referendum in 5 years from now, if the UK elects a party that stands under the banner of wanting another vote on the EU in the next general election. That's democracy and sovereignty.
  • #432,204
  • Jun 12, 2016 5:02am Jun 12, 2016 5:02am
Quoting gammase1
{quote} The TTIP has to be ratified by all 28 parliaments before it comes into effect. So it has not passed as it has to pass a democratic process. The very fact that we are having this referendum shows how sovereign we are. Even if we vote to remain, there is nothing stopping another referendum in 5 years from now, if the UK elects a party that stands under the banner of wanting another vote on the EU in the next general election. That's democracy and sovereignty.
LOL. Do you always cherry pick little details while avoiding major points in a discussion? Some people never let the facts get in the way, do they. I gave you 5 instances where referendums were directly ignored by the EU, and your response is the minor point that TTIF hasn't been ratified yet as an example of democracy in action. Good fucking grief. Discussion over.
  • #432,205
  • Jun 12, 2016 6:28am Jun 12, 2016 6:28am
it will touch 1.4020 before upwards stay tuned .
  • #432,206
  • Jun 12, 2016 7:41am Jun 12, 2016 7:41am
Looking forward to the Referendum!
  • #432,207
  • Jun 12, 2016 8:11am Jun 12, 2016 8:11am
Quoting Jfx
{quote} LOL. Do you always cherry pick little details while avoiding major points in a discussion? Some people never let the facts get in the way, do they. I gave you 5 instances where referendums were directly ignored by the EU, and your response is the minor point that TTIF hasn't been ratified yet as an example of democracy in action. Good fucking grief. Discussion over.
You have failed to address many of my points and ignored my question about the Swiss model.

I have acknowledged the imperfections of the EU in many of my previous posts, but I think it is important to place any complaints about perceived or real lack of democracy in the EU into context with counter-arguments (all facts) and comparisons with the democratic shortfalls in the UK. The EU should be more democratic, yes, but I would also like major changes to the electoral system in the UK.

Overall, I view our membership of the EU, including its imperfections, as being a net positive economically, socially and politically and I also view the EU as being an overall success when judged against key metrics. Clearly, you think the opposite; we will never agree, so, yes, the discussion has run its course. We will both get our say in 11 days time and I will accept the democratic outcome of the vote.

Anyway, it's Her Majesty's 90th birthday today and I have a wet street party to attend. God save the Queen and Jean-Claude-Juncker
  • #432,208
  • Edited 10:57am Jun 12, 2016 8:57am | Edited 10:57am
imperfections in UK system ,of course ,
but with EU if its not hugely corrupt now ill et my hat ,its a system that puts too much power in the few hands ,with no accountability,
power will only grow
if we leave we would do Europe a favour and ourselves long term
The population of the European Union (EU) 508 million , United States 320 million
fundamentally flawed to the core ,its the top reason to vote leave
like comparing a kitten with a tiger

Go Back to immigration because the vast majority UK citizens want to control its borders ,but we are unable by laws from afar its a very good example
its why UKIP did well ,even tho they haven't many known policies ,you can't vote UKIP for goverment

'I'll cut immigration or kick me out': What Cameron told voters at the LAST election before numbers arriving soared to 300,000
Urged voters in 2010 to hold him to pledge and kick him out if he fails




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  • #432,209
  • Edited 9:42am Jun 12, 2016 9:21am | Edited 9:42am
monthly looks like this ,daily had a range downside of 300 pips and close minus 200 under boris common gap
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  • #432,210
  • Jun 12, 2016 9:36am Jun 12, 2016 9:36am
Im not political at all ,apathy is high UK ,but certainly its now brought to my attention whats happened ,the vote I'm feeling confident will be leave and Boris will become PM the best man to hammer a future deals

Quoting rythmrig
{quote} I agree with you Bones ....Perspective : Thieves jumping your back fence dictating to you the CONDITION of GROUNDS they jumped upon are not fit for them whilst they raid your food cupboard and complain to you the kind of food they stole from you. They will threaten with fear and manipulate so next time they want the goods you have better offerings unwillingly.
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  • #432,211
  • Jun 12, 2016 9:50am Jun 12, 2016 9:50am
Quoting Bones
Im not political at all ,apathy is high UK ,but certainly its now brought to my attention whats happened ,the vote I'm feeling confident will be leave and Boris will become PM the best man to hammer a future deals {quote}
I think the vote will be to leave - the Brexit camp certainly have the momentum and Cameron is becoming more of a liability than an asset to the remain campaign. Boris for PM is not something I want, nor do I think it will be good for the country, particularly not for the working class - those who most want Brexit.
  • #432,212
  • Edited 8:49pm Jun 12, 2016 10:49am | Edited 8:49pm
Quoting Bones
imperfections in UK system ,of course , but with EU if its not hugely corrupt now ill et my hat ,its a system that puts too much power in the few hands ,with no accountability, power will only grow if we leave we would do Europe a favour and ourselves long term The population of the European Union (EU) 508 million , United States 320 million fundamentally flawed to the core ,its the top reason to vote leave like comparing a kitten with a tiger Go Back to immigration because the vast majority UK citizens want to control it ,but we are unable by laws...

Pat Condell puts it better than I could what's really at stake.

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If you haven't seen this yet, it's well worth your time.

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  • #432,213
  • Jun 12, 2016 11:15am Jun 12, 2016 11:15am
Quoting Jfx
{quote} There's no point in arguing with spineless sellouts.
  • #432,214
  • Jun 12, 2016 1:09pm Jun 12, 2016 1:09pm
http://www.forexfactory.com/showthre...47#post8975547

Leave is gonna win big no doubts lead by 19 (52-33) margin of win gonna increase not reduce..
Scoobi doobi doo
  • #432,215
  • Edited 4:14pm Jun 12, 2016 2:06pm | Edited 4:14pm
Quoting Scoobidoobi
http://www.forexfactory.com/showthre...47#post8975547 Leave is gonna win big no doubts lead by 19 (52-33) margin of win gonna increase not reduce..
The Leave vote is definitely gaining traction, but a couple of points for balance:

- The poll was commissioned by Brexit backed think tank, Bruges Group.

- The 19 point lead you mention was not in relation to a simple remain or leave choice, but included options about having free trade arrangements, so respondents could opt for leaving and being in free trade agreement (which is not on offer from the EU).

- Another Opinium poll, published in today's Observer, asked a straight question of whether respondents wanted to remain or leave and showed 44/42 in favour of leaving. This poll gives a clearer picture, as the question matches the one that will be asked on 23 June - a crucial point.


https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/...68380958625793
  • #432,216
  • Jun 12, 2016 2:17pm Jun 12, 2016 2:17pm
GBP opens at 1.42210 pre market (gap down ~50 pips so far)

http://www.easy-forex.com/int/currencyratespage/

https://www.dailyfx.com/forex-rates
Scoobi doobi doo
  • #432,217
  • Edited 4:20pm Jun 12, 2016 2:26pm | Edited 4:20pm
Study has found most of us now consider ourselves to be middle class
more conservative than anything else ,which is why they wont vote Brussels ,would never have done so from fresh,unless fear of the unknown wins now
me personally feel the less paid to a government of any type without stopping important social needs is always best .The less a government intervenes the better.
Governments are not productive or efficient because the money just rolls in
As appose to private companies where by sink or swim creates efficiency or you spending money personally
mark my words Boris is high odd


It is perhaps the most outlandish of the European Unions excesses; a 130 million travelling circus that once a month sees the European Parliament decamp from Belgium to France.
Over the course of the weekend, some 2,500 plastic trunks will be loaded on to five lorries and driven almost 300 miles from Brussels to Strasbourg.
On Monday, about 1,000 politicians, officials and translators will then make the same journey on two specially chartered trains hired at taxpayers expense.
A few thousand more will go to Strasbourg by other means, as the European Parliament switches from Brussels, its permanent base, to its official home in northern France.
For the first time, the full detail of this madness, contained in official European documents, can be disclosed today by The Telegraph and the price to taxpayers is astonishing.

In all, the EU admits that the monthly Strasbourg sitting, which lasts just four days, costs an additional 93 million a year. The Conservative Party in Europe, which is leading a campaign to abandon it, estimates the cost a little higher at 130 million, or about 928 million in the seven-year cycle of an EU budget.

Quoting gammase1
{quote} I think the vote will be to leave - the Brexit camp certainly have the momentum and Cameron is becoming more of a liability than an asset to the remain campaign. Boris for PM is not something I want, nor do I think it will be good for the country, particularly not for the working class - those who most want Brexit.
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  • #432,218
  • Jun 12, 2016 2:27pm Jun 12, 2016 2:27pm
GBP losing againts majors.
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  • #432,219
  • Jun 12, 2016 4:12pm Jun 12, 2016 4:12pm
Quoting Bones
Uk is a middle class majority more conservative than anything else ,which is why they wont vote Brussels ,would never have done so from fresh,unless fear of the unknown wins me personally feel the less paid to a government of any type without stopping important social needs is always best .The less a government intervenes the better. Governments are not productive or efficient because the money just rolls in As appose to private companies where by sink or swim creates efficiency or you spending money personally mark my words Boris is high odd It...
There was a YouGov survey which showed a correlation between education and likelihood of voting for Remain, in that persons educated to degree level were 64/36 in favour of remain, whereas not university educated were 41/59 (so in favour of an exit). This survey also showed a positive correlation between "class" and wanting to remain, with ABC1 (lower to upper middle class) split 59/41 in favour of remaining and C2DE (working class and unemployed) split 62/38 in favour of leaving. Obviously, this is one survey and the numbers have likely changed since it was carried out.

The holding of some sitting in the Strasbourg building make little sense to me. There is a desire for this to be stopped, but doing so has been blocked by the French, as the government has faced intense lobbying from hotels and restaurants in the city. The economy of the Strasbourg area is totally reliant on serving the EU.

As for government intervention in the economy. I think the main role of government spending in the economy should be to create the right infrastructure and conditions for economic growth: good transport and communication links, excellent educational facilities, healthcare available to all citizens and adequate housing (working with private sector) and a "fair" welfare safety net...

Also, the government has the role to stabilise and support growth when there is insufficient demand from the private sector, conditions which lead to high unemployment, workers dropping out of the workforce (in the US now, for example) and lots of spare capacity. This would mean deficit spending (particularly so when interest rates are at zero and can go no lower and the effectiveness on QE is questionable), through either tax cuts or infrastructure spending, in order to inject demand and create the right conditions for private sector growth. Once the private sector is firing on all cylinders, then government spending can be reined in, to prevent inflation from running away from target.
  • #432,220
  • Jun 12, 2016 5:36pm Jun 12, 2016 5:36pm
I can't believe the more educated you are the more you'd want to stay ,maybe the higher educated often are not the most practical

The Strasbourg building doesn't makes sense it wouldn't happen in the real world ,all costly artifical support .

We are a net contributor to the EU ,going up and up as the monster grows
we send money then they choose what the the rebate is spent on in UK ,subsidies to farmers for instance ,which our government doesn't support ,again it wouldn't happen
It all goes back to free trade for the vote stay ,
this open market ,yea course thats what we signed up for originally,
you can't give away sovereignty to achieve that,and pay for the privilege
even if we stay its gonna fail later ,if it continues on its path

350 million is what we would pay to the EU budget,
without the rebate.But the UK actually pays just under 250 million a week.
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