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  • #461
  • Dec 8, 2015 3:00pm Dec 8, 2015 3:00pm
Hey Bill,

"Any insight you might have on what ref pts to use and how to calculate them would greatly hasten my process."
I cant tell you how to write the calculations in programming languages. There is no insight/magic/trick. But this is what I think would boost your progress and maybe help you to calculate the reference points by your own:
Study Jones and Dalton articles/books. Have a look on market profile solutions, get in contact with the autors. There is a trail and study course on cisco website.

"How do you feel it's progressing? Do you think this is a path that the rewards will justify the means?"
Yes its worth it. Have a look on Evaks and Mzvegas trade examples. If you realy want to learn whats going on in the markets learn Steidlmayers method.

It would be nice to have you in our little community.

Greetings
Chris
  • #462
  • Dec 8, 2015 8:48pm Dec 8, 2015 8:48pm
Quoting billmac3
Hi mzvega - Thanks for the page. TOC == table of contents. Ah yes, that loaded word 'potential'. My goal is to research both responsive and initiative trades in AMVA. I'm sure that some responsive trades have more potential than others and if the right alert system is in place, then you wouldn't have to watch the screen all day. It's funny how most traders who like to research ideas learn a little programming and then a little more..That's how I started. I had my own CTA but when 2000 rolled around and I saw the black cloud of a Bear Market on the...
Learning as I go is difficult..especially when I want to do analysis "NOW"

After writing a little over 8,000 lines of working code, I started to feel pretty good about myself,
until I got to the next chapter in my programming book: "What is a function?"

I'm always learning a better way of doing things which always sends me back square 1

Right now I use excel for alerts. My current program automatically updates an excel wb with prices of interest which sounds an alarm when price approaches when used with mt4 DDE.

My ultimate goal is to be platform independent. Right now I have the perfect tool, which exports my data (already calculated) for me, but if for any reason MT4 goes out of business, so will I, as there is no software available to fit the bill. Right now the indicator borrows mt4 to plot the data, but Id like to plot the same data in a window on my own computer using a GUI. I dont want to have to rely on a Broker, or Proprietary software for charting or my analysis.
I still have a long way to go........

TOC=
Markets are not efficient, rather they are effective - Jones
  • #463
  • Dec 8, 2015 11:20pm Dec 8, 2015 11:20pm
Quoting mzvega
{quote} That is a very very good one. It's so difficult for me to choose a favorite. Markets & Market Logic, I enjoy for the real world analogies. That makes it simpler to understand the reality in which Auction Markets and their participants operate. Mind over markets I enjoy because it focuses on the tool (not to be confused with thinking that it produces buy/sell signals) to identify how & where each of the different participants operate in. VBPT I love for quantitative and analytical analysis. But if I had to pick a favorite it would be the...
Let me not forget.........Steildlmayer on Markets: Trading with Market profile 2nd edition

I absolutely hate this book, because "volume profiler's" try to use this book as their justification of using a volume at price histogram (profile). They consider it their Bible, although they have never actually read it, consider it as "proof" that a volume profile it is the same thing as a market profile and auction market analysis.

"Volume at price" is the same kind of linear 1 dimensional variable "price to price" bar chart data is. Therefore it is not "market generated data" Steidlymayer, wouldn't use it.

Just as you would change the format of your data to a "price time" format (2 dimensional) you would also have to change the format of your volume data to a "volume at time" format (2 dimensional) that also requires a database.

Steidlymayer does not use a "volume at price" profile. He uses "Volume at time" analysis not a volume profile. Why do I think this? Because he spells it out in plain English.

Steildlmayer on Markets: Trading with Market profile 2nd edition
Chapter 7 Page 106

Understanding Volume @ Time
When looking at volume, the most forward-looking and revolutionary tool for Market Profile users is volume @ time. Steidlmayer Software developed this application in 1998 and it was integrated into Capflow32.

We took the online volume from stock exchanges, electronic future exchanges, and open outcry exchanges (when available) and integrated it into the Market Profile. This allows for the creation of an entirely new database, a volume database. Now people can trade a price database (Market Profile), a volume database, or a combination of the two.

How does it work? The price and volume information is recorded as it accumulates over time. Look at the industry standard Market Profile, which is half-hour data, and record the volume and price range for each half-hour segment. Compare that half-hours range (the existing) to the previous and determine whether it rotated up (took out the high of the previous half-hour but not the low), rotated down (took out the previous half-hours low but not the high), was an inside half-hour (did not take out the previous half-hours high or low), or was an outside half-hour (took out the previous half-hours high and low).

Volume @ time analysis throws out the volume information for inside and outside half-hours. Volume for inside and outside half-hour bars is not calculated because direction is not assignable..........


*(my note) It does not say "accumulates at price", and volume is defined as contractual volume, not the volume of ticks.

the book can be found in the other thread as I refuse to post it here..............
Markets are not efficient, rather they are effective - Jones
  • #464
  • Dec 9, 2015 6:15am Dec 9, 2015 6:15am
Hi!
usd/jpy looks nice for days, finally breakdown...

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greetings
C
  • #465
  • Dec 9, 2015 8:52am Dec 9, 2015 8:52am
Quoting dljonesFan
Hi! usd/jpy looks nice for days, finally breakdown... {image} greetings C
Glad to see you got UJ. The uj did take awhile, by the time I woke this morning, I missed the initial break. time zone often has me late to the party
I'm still holding uc..........
I was able to manage nj.........
and I added to the aj I took yesterday
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Click to Enlarge Name: nj.JPG Size: 275 KB
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Markets are not efficient, rather they are effective - Jones
  • #466
  • Dec 9, 2015 10:32am Dec 9, 2015 10:32am
we are doing good here
I must add nj to my markets.
Thank you for sharing Mzvega, always a pleasure. Learned the wohle day, time to relax.

greetings
C
  • #467
  • Dec 9, 2015 11:52am Dec 9, 2015 11:52am
Quoting dljonesFan
we are doing good here I must add nj to my markets. Thank you for sharing Mzvega, always a pleasure. Learned the wohle day, time to relax. greetings C
Not too bad…..
for me it’s close to mid-day, I still have the day to manage my trades.
Markets are not efficient, rather they are effective - Jones
  • #468
  • Dec 9, 2015 11:58am Dec 9, 2015 11:58am
Quoting mzvega
{quote} How does it work? The price and volume information is recorded as it accumulates over time. Look at the industry standard Market Profile, which is half-hour data, and record the volume and price range for each half-hour segment. Compare that half-hours range (the existing) to the previous and determine whether it rotated up (took out the high of the previous half-hour but not the low), rotated down (took out the previous half-hours low but not the high), was an inside half-hour (did not take out the previous half-hours high or low), or was...
I came across capflow32 manual 2 years ago as i was reading 141 which likely is the application of what was describe above. Known as VOLUME$;

Attached Image

Attached Image


Essentially the reference here pertains to rotation factor & the application of volume value to RF.
  • #469
  • Dec 9, 2015 12:35pm Dec 9, 2015 12:35pm
dljonesfan & mzvega - impressive stuff here! a few questions now please mzvega
1) is the data you use in your spreadsheets the same as what's exported from MP Multi-Composite indy?
2) why does your Command Panel have 2 export functions and mine has only 1 (Export Reffs) v2.10?
3) do you base your trading decisions solely off the exported data?
4) why can't I access cisco-futures.com without having to use a cached copy. Are they still in business?

I guess I could drive over there since they're only a 30 minute drive away

BTW, I used a similar concept to volume @ time except that I did keep outside bar infomation. I called it Directional Money Flow. I find Accum/Dist works better, if you want to follow that stuff.
Karma is a bitch, so play nice w/her
  • #470
  • Edited 5:17pm Dec 9, 2015 4:17pm | Edited 5:17pm
Quoting Evak
{quote} I came across capflow32 manual 2 years ago as i was reading 141 which likely is the application of what was describe above. Known as VOLUME$; {image} {image} Essentially the reference here pertains to rotation factor & the application of volume value to RF.
You never fail at pulling evasive rabbits out of your hat!!!!
I always question who loves this stuff more, you or I? Just when I think its me, you manage to one up me!
Great find! That's the best detailed description Ive come across

"Volume at time" is an interesting concept, I am curious, we have both tpos, and rf. Something for me to wrap my mind around great food for thought. I just cant learn this programming thing fast enough..

Again, as always.....Great share!
Markets are not efficient, rather they are effective - Jones
  • #471
  • Edited 6:49pm Dec 9, 2015 4:42pm | Edited 6:49pm
Quoting billmac3
dljonesfan & mzvega - impressive stuff here! a few questions now please mzvega 1) is the data you use in your spreadsheets the same as what's exported from MP Multi-Composite indy? 2) why does your Command Panel have 2 export functions and mine has only 1 (Export Reffs) v2.10? 3) do you base your trading decisions solely off the exported data? 4) why can't I access cisco-futures.com without having to use a cached copy. Are they still in business? I guess I could drive over there since they're only a 30 minute drive away BTW, I used a similar concept...
1) is the data you use in your spreadsheets the same as what's exported from MP Multi-Composite indy?

Yes it is.......some of it, results from a calculation of 1 or more of the references from the exported data. I consider them variables. But it is the data used.

2) why does your Command Panel have 2 export functions and mine has only 1 (Export Reffs) v2.10?

Bandung allowed me to beta test the indicator, that was a feature he was planning to incorporate, but since Evak and I where the only 2 people with a need for the indicator, he went to work on other things. Its a non working function. He's always been my hero, I use it more for sentimental reasons, than anything else. Your copy is a cleaned up, up to date version. They are virtually identical.

3) do you base your trading decisions solely off the exported data?
Yes

4) why can't I access cisco-futures.com without having to use a cached copy. Are they still in business?

I believe they are still in business, they were the first and one of the very few "authorized" data vendors for the CBOT/CME. I used the site as recently as last week. This is about the 3rd year in a row where I have noticed this happens at the end of the year. It also happens occasionally. The site is very old school and difficult to navigate, but periodically I see subtle changes.

If I was close enough, curiosity would get the best of me, have you seen his resume?
Literally, "Rocket Scientist" http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

The "Club" of volume profilers destroyed the previous thread, turned it into a swamp of misinformation. That's what happens when you challenge someones belief system with a set of "facts". It got pretty nasty, so I bailed, what can I say, its the internet, at least its not my stupidity forever recorded in time. I posted in that thread for almost 4yrs, you would never know I still have bad attitude about it


"Volume at time" is an interesting concept, I'm constantly working on being able to execute these ideas.
Markets are not efficient, rather they are effective - Jones
  • #472
  • Edited 9:12am Dec 10, 2015 12:24am | Edited 9:12am
Wont happen here Mzvega, we will stick to Jones method.

Observed aud/cad but missed entry. I forgot to set the orders.

I take my profits on uj, because the 5day last node upper limit getting touched. aj and nj showed me strong "corrections" in asian session, so Iam afraid of an possible "correction" in uj. but the daily data shows no signs of inituative buying. So the down auction cant be over. I think that exit was too soon.

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
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I take the eur/jpy breakdown, but get out on the 10day node LL test, because 10 and 20 are still trending. I think its better to dont trade against the long term timeframe, but it is ok to take some short term trading opportunities.

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
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I also take a responsive trade gbp/usd. Responsive trading is still a mystery for me... I checked the 1 day behaviour again and found inituative buying, so I get out quickly.

Attached Image


@BILL I use python 3.5 and excel.

Greetings
C
  • #473
  • Edited 11:03am Dec 10, 2015 10:43am | Edited 11:03am
Quoting dljonesFan
Wont happen here Mzvega, we will stick to Jones method. Observed aud/cad but missed entry. I forgot to set the orders. I take my profits on uj, because the 5day last node upper limit getting touched. aj and nj showed me strong "corrections" in asian session, so Iam afraid of an possible "correction" in uj. but the daily data shows no signs of inituative buying. So the down auction cant be over. I think that exit was too soon. {image} I take the eur/jpy breakdown, but get out on the 10day node LL test, because 10 and 20 are still trending. I think...
Its good to take profits, and if you are correct in your analysis, you can always get right back in, often at a better price than you got in at......
I'm still holding.......uj
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
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The nj got nasty yesterday......I took a small loss on that

Because of fifo, in order to not take a loss on my add-on on the AJ yesterday, I had to close my best position first , so I just set a new order at my original price, only because there was nothing in the data that suggested the condition of the market had changed. I added to that today. My bias holds until the data changes. I have to see how that works out
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the gu broke the 5 & started testing the 10 on pretty steady vty, I'll see how well that turns out......
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I'm watching nu for a break but we have been trending on the 20 for quite awhile, I think things are slowing, a possible pause or end of trend, but I'll bail if things start going sideways, I jumped in prematurely
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Still holding uc
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Markets are not efficient, rather they are effective - Jones
  • #474
  • Edited 8:51am Dec 11, 2015 4:55am | Edited 8:51am
Hi mzvega,

nu=nzdusd(?) is not on my list for breakout, because shows signs of responsive selling (seller tpos), upper tail (could be a sign of inituative selling) and buying activity is shutting down. The market is currently in short term hands, because of that smal va range. I wait until lower prices attract initial buying activity again. I traded that one responsive today, dont realy liked it and get out. I learned a lot about responsive trading this week. Its very difficult and needs more preperation than breakout trading. I traded usd/jpy responsive short, not bad but I get out, because I cant concentrate on the trade. Hope you are still in usd/jpy. Iam currently studing daily profile behaviour again and work on my statistics.

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: nzdusd resp 11122015.JPG Size: 59 KB


greetings
have a nice weekend
C
  • #475
  • Dec 11, 2015 6:55am Dec 11, 2015 6:55am
SAKISF
how to use market profilevirgin.any more info pls
  • #476
  • Dec 11, 2015 7:47am Dec 11, 2015 7:47am
Quoting wealthpro
SAKISF how to use market profilevirgin.any more info pls
Hello,

I would like to reccomend you Steidlmayers book "Markets and Market logic".

greetings
Chris
  • #477
  • Dec 11, 2015 8:16am Dec 11, 2015 8:16am
Quoting dljonesFan
{quote} Hello, I would like to reccomend you Steidlmayers book "Markets and Market logic". greetings Chris
thank you chris
  • #478
  • Dec 11, 2015 12:16pm Dec 11, 2015 12:16pm
Quoting dljonesFan
Hi mzvega, nu=nzdusd(?) is not on my list for breakout, because shows signs of responsive selling (seller tpos), upper tail (could be a sign of inituative selling) and buying activity is shutting down. The market is currently in short term hands, because of that smal va range. I wait until lower prices attract initial buying activity again. I traded that one responsive today, dont realy liked it and get out. I learned a lot about responsive trading this week. Its very difficult and needs more preperation than breakout trading. I traded usd/jpy responsive...
It depends on how youre looking at it. The reason I use 1 price step for my data is for better granularity in my data. You need a minimum 3 and 5 tpos to identify one distribution from another. When you use a price step of say 10, youre taking the tpos of 10 prices for a count to determine one distribution from another. If you are always using the tpos of ten prices when youre looking for a min. of 3, even if you had 1 tpo at each of the 10 prices(steps), you will not see the break in the distribution because 10 tpos would the minimum. It skews the data, making it look like a single bracket. Another reason I look at the tpos instead of the histogram boxes, because it smoothes the distribution visually. I prefer 1 step for the finer details. A price step of 10 will make almost every day look like a bracket. For you its a Bracket, for me, multiple distributions...............
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: compare.JPG Size: 381 KB



So from my perspective (1 step) the 10 day is still trending (multiple brackets).The latest 10day dist. Is considered an accepted area. Until that area fails and trading returns to the previous dist. for me its still an area of acceptance. The target of a responsive trade is mid bracket. From my perspective it did not look like that would happen very easily. I was fortunate to get out of that trade at BE. I jumped in prematurely, and could have avoided the trade. But until price returns to trading of the previous dist. of the LTF, my bias wont change. Now come EOD, after todays EOD analysis and I look at the data, my bias might change.

As for single prints, from my perspective there are more LTF single prints below.

I jumped in prematurely, and could have avoided the trade, but it hasn't changed my bias. After I do my eod analysis I may change my bias

It was great you managed to find an opportunity.
Any bracket is a candidate for either or break or responsive.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: nu compare steps.jpg Size: 423 KB
Markets are not efficient, rather they are effective - Jones
  • #479
  • Dec 11, 2015 12:33pm Dec 11, 2015 12:33pm
Quoting dljonesFan
Hi mzvega, nu=nzdusd(?) is not on my list for breakout, because shows signs of responsive selling (seller tpos), upper tail (could be a sign of inituative selling) and buying activity is shutting down. The market is currently in short term hands, because of that smal va range. I wait until lower prices attract initial buying activity again. I traded that one responsive today, dont realy liked it and get out. I learned a lot about responsive trading this week. Its very difficult and needs more preperation than breakout trading. I traded usd/jpy responsive...
unfortunately I closed my uj trade before you asked the question, but imo it was still a good trade. I closed all my trades except uc and gu, my gu trade had better results. I'm may close gu end of day....
Attached Image(s) (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: uc.JPG Size: 239 KB
Click to Enlarge Name: gu.JPG Size: 248 KB
Markets are not efficient, rather they are effective - Jones
  • #480
  • Edited 6:30am Dec 12, 2015 5:03am | Edited 6:30am
Thank you mzvega for your opinion.
You are right, there are differences in displaying trending/bracketing conditions. The direction of the cash flow could be misinterpreted and so the market condition. I experimented in the past with different settings. The wohle problem of that sensetive setting of 1 price steps is that my mt4 starts to run very slow. If there is one thing I hate, than slow working programs. Because of that I cant use this setting.
But so far I see no problem with my 10 price step setting, because 90% of my analysis is based on statistical data (reference points) in my excel sheets and the last two weeks I dont miss one of the breakouts. If that success rate holds, I wont change my settings.

I think I could solve that setting issue only by buying a new pc. I will buy one next year. Or develope mt4 seperated solution, but I cant do that now, I need my time for studing responsive strategies.

Thank you for sharing your entries! Best way to learn how to turn theory into practice.
I like your GBP/USD entry. Your decision at 1 day ul dist is inspiring. Yesterday I was thinking about where to set entries on 1 day based responsive trades. My responsive short on usd/yen was at the 1 day dist ul, because short term buying was shutting off.

Iam very interested in Evaks trade management. I hope he will share his entries with us.

Have a nice weekend!
C
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