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  • #14,221
  • Jan 19, 2015 2:46am Jan 19, 2015 2:46am
Quoting hornsant
{quote} Because the whole situation is absolutely stupid, how do you expect to make a teenager accountable for a loss of xxx,xxx USD if the boy lives on a schollar loan. In the first place why does the FX industry take customers like that, it puts the whole custom base at risk, my losses are ridiculously small and I have nothing to lose by going to court, in my country it does not work like knoc knoc give me your furniture. First they will have to show compliance with the local exchange comission rules about lending wich I doubt they do....
that is my point, why do you think you are not accountable for the loss on trades which you entered on margin and now have to cough up the rest...
be accountable, after all everytime you take a 1.0 lot trade on 1,000 margin you are effectively borrowing 99,000
  • #14,222
  • Jan 19, 2015 2:50am Jan 19, 2015 2:50am
Quoting MaxDoom
{quote} that is my point, why do you think you are not accountable for the loss on trades which you entered on margin and now have to cough up the rest... be accountable, after all everytime you take a 1.0 lot trade on 1,000 margin you are effectively borrowing 99,000
Hard, but true ...
Fix up, trade sharp ...
  • #14,223
  • Jan 19, 2015 2:56am Jan 19, 2015 2:56am
Quoting hornsant
{quote} Because the whole situation is absolutely stupid, how do you expect to make a teenager accountable for a loss of xxx,xxx USD if the boy lives on a schollar loan. In the first place why does the FX industry take customers like that, it puts the whole custom base at risk, my losses are ridiculously small and I have nothing to lose by going to court, in my country it does not work like knoc knoc give me your furniture. First they will have to show compliance with the local exchange comission rules about lending wich I doubt they do. Second...
FX for the longest time was limited to the Central Banks and the largest of players but like most things in modern life their was an option to expand. In 2004 when I first got a taste for Forex there were limits. 50:1 leverage was the norm and you had to trade standard sized lots ie $10 per point or there abouts was the minimum positions size.

Today you see brokers on every dark corner offering rewards to sign up, bonus credit to trade, 500:1 leverage and incremental position sizes lets you trade as little as 1c per point. The increase in numbers across the globe have all but de-regulated the industry and it was lead, as per usual, by the banks. The explosion of FX has been cleverly crafted by the promise to make millions, the strategies and automation so you can get rich with no effort and the electronic dealing desks in which you don't even necessarily have a cognitive connection with your actual funds: It is just mere numbers that go up and down and usually more often it is the latter.

The real markets are hidden through poor price feeds, manipulation, leaks, algorithms and priced in news. In order to get up to the date news is costly but that delay of 10 secs is the different, especially in the tech world where an algorithm can move positions quicker than humans and price feeds and internet speed cost the average speculator. Increases in spreads, failure to get orders in and being slipped a mile are all major disadvantages against the retail guy.

Ive got to leave work so ill add more later this evening but suffice to say, depending on where you are in the world will depend on just how honest your broker likely is or needs to be.

Forex has been played out as an easy way to get rich. Its a fools play that pays off very very rarely, in fact your more likely to win the jackpot in the lottery and I believe there are statistics out there that prove it. Ill try and dig some up.
  • #14,224
  • Jan 19, 2015 2:57am Jan 19, 2015 2:57am
Quoting Hickson
{quote} Hard, but true ...
to be fair, I have stated that I am sympathetic to people that have lost money here, but the attitude of some of them is all wrong, going around saying the brokers are at fault, bad adverts, going to sue them etc etc... that did not stop them trading before, and they still decided to trade on margin..... when they entered a 1 lot trade they wanted profits from a 1.0 lot trade, so therefore they have the risk of a lot trade..... but I digress, I am sympathetic to their loss not their attitude.
  • #14,225
  • Jan 19, 2015 3:02am Jan 19, 2015 3:02am
Quoting MaxDoom
{quote} to be fair, I have stated that I am sympathetic to people that have lost money here, but the attitude of some of them is all wrong, going around saying the brokers are at fault, bad adverts, going to sue them etc etc... that did not stop them trading before, and they still decided to trade on margin..... when they entered a 1 lot trade they wanted profits from a 1.0 lot trade, so therefore they have the risk of a lot trade..... but I digress, I am sympathetic to their loss not their attitude.
I know mate, that is the trouble with this world ... everyone "knows" everything, but in the end nobody wants to take the responsibility. It is like hanging on the couch all day with beer and chips and then not taking responsibility for being fat and ugly. What became clear to me is that I also entered dangerous territory in this market. I can use low leverage and tight stops but what does this do against a move like last week ... but what is the conclusion? Quit everything due to fear and be another puzzle piece for capitalistic, ruthless people?
Fix up, trade sharp ...
  • #14,226
  • Jan 19, 2015 3:15am Jan 19, 2015 3:15am
Quoting Hickson
{quote} I know mate, that is the trouble with this world ... everyone "knows" everything, but in the end nobody wants to take the responsibility. It is like hanging on the couch all day with beer and chips and then not taking responsibility for being fat and ugly. What became clear to me is that I also entered dangerous territory in this market. I can use low leverage and tight stops but what does this do against a move like last week ... but what is the conclusion? Quit everything due to fear and be another puzzle piece for capitalistic,...
this is all trueLast week was bit of black swan but equally the danger signs were there, margins had been increasing on chf for the last two months that alone implies trouble ahead. But more importantly the 1.20 was an artificial dam. Trading above it compared with trading non chf was high risk. Betting that snb would continue to maintain. The reAl issue here is that many retail didn't and still don't understand that when you trade on margin you are risking the whole value of the amount traded and not just your stop, margin or account balance
  • #14,227
  • Jan 19, 2015 3:17am Jan 19, 2015 3:17am
Quoting Harris27
{quote} Rest assured, adding thursday's loss, my long run profits from eurchf alone(not talking about my accounts for other pairs trading) worth more than accounts of all bandwagoners commenting on this thread imagine and plan hahaha, this is why ur now a billionaire and commenting here too hahaha FX high risk, thanks for reminding me, never knew this valuable info hahaha....OH remind Swatch and Nestle about this too hahaha
I don't get it: so you are a very profitable trader, implying you are experienced. You knew about FX being high risk. Yet you think you can take a one-way bet and disregard the consequences?
I've stated here that it's best to remain calm, devellop a legal strategy and try to find solidarity in groups, maybe even try to organize groups of 'victims' per broker to co-ordinate. In court most of the different actions of last thursday will come to light and this may help to prevent people from going truly broke.

But it doesn't help anyone to keep on ranting about SNB, scam-brokers, etc., when it was the retail investor who pulled the trigger and decided to trade Chf. First of all: everyone is responsible for his own risk. It is very difficult to assess this, but that is what trading is first and foremost about: risk.
I'm not a billionaire, I lost dearly in this move because I decided for myself I was able to take the risk and the expected reward was worth it. Not only was I wrong with my trade, I was totally wrong about what kind of risk I was entering. So actually the only thing that saved my ass here was the very small size of the trade and the margin call, that I until now only expected to happen in case the world ends.

I'm not trying to say I told you so, I hope people learn from this. I hope I learn from this.
Fail better.
  • #14,228
  • Jan 19, 2015 4:24am Jan 19, 2015 4:24am
Quoting MaxDoom
{quote} this is all trueLast week was bit of black swan but equally the danger signs were there, margins had been increasing on chf for the last two months that alone implies trouble ahead. But more importantly the 1.20 was an artificial dam. Trading above it compared with trading non chf was high risk. Betting that snb would continue to maintain. The reAl issue here is that many retail didn't and still don't understand that when you trade on margin you are risking the whole value of the amount traded and not just your stop, margin or account balance...
Brokers changed leverage on CHF bcoz they thought that Swiss NB will intervene not the opposite. They knew 99% of retail were buying the pair, and bcoz 95% of brokers are market makers including ones that claim to be stp ecn, they wanted to limit their losses on intervention possibility.

I bet FXCM for example and many others the same were hedging on the other side, this is why it hadn't bother to close orders until 1 hour later.

Swiss NB surprised the whole market and world, from a SCANDAL decision this time!
  • #14,229
  • Jan 19, 2015 4:33am Jan 19, 2015 4:33am
Quoting LarryDarrell
{quote} I don't get it: so you are a very profitable trader, implying you are experienced. You knew about FX being high risk. Yet you think you can take a one-way bet and disregard the consequences? I've stated here that it's best to remain calm, devellop a legal strategy and try to find solidarity in groups, maybe even try to organize groups of 'victims' per broker to co-ordinate. In court most of the different actions of last thursday will come to light and this may help to prevent people from going truly broke. But it doesn't help anyone to keep...
Larry, I understand the consequences of my decisions in and out of trading. But sometimes it is out of control of any bodies decision like if an earthquake destroyed your property, u can't tell the owner, u must had known this will happen!!

From my trading start until now, my all accounts had never known what margin call stop out margin requirement......mean, until last thursday Swiss NB scandal!
bcoz i always traded safe, anyway another guy posted that despite risking 2% the Swiss disgrace didn't help his account to survive.

ur broker gave u the margin call feature in this scandal time, most traders on this thread had no margin call but negative balance instantly.

My blame to Swiss NB is from full perspective of there's a very big wrong childish decision if not conspiracy from their side and to brokers bcoz they didn't respect terms and conditions of their contracts(stop out margin etc), that was the time to show us their good service not in normal market,

Then why the existence of a contract? when anytime brokers can say there was an earthquake, tsunami, very volatile news, we couldn't trigger close of positions on stops etc

I take full responsibility of my trades but not in such way of 1 minute everything crashed, this never happened especially coming from a CB that must have the least credibility!!
  • #14,230
  • Jan 19, 2015 4:58am Jan 19, 2015 4:58am
Quoting Harris27
{quote} Larry, I understand the consequences of my decisions in and out of trading. But sometimes it is out of control of any bodies decision like if an earthquake destroyed your property, u can't tell the owner, u must had known this will happen!!
But that is a case in my point: the earthquake happening might not be probable, and you might even don't know it could happen at all, but nevertheless it CAN happen. There is risk in life, so people buy insurance, there is risk in trading. We usually say that we risk - say - 1% of the account. But there is also slippage and then other risk (internet connection, market news, gaps, what-have-you). Risk management for a trader includes covering for that as well. And as well for the inconcievable event, the black swan.

You drive your car in the mountains, somebody tells you there is a remote chance of flooding. You decide to drive anyway, there is no sign flooding is happening. Suddenly the road collapses, your car is destroyed, you are injured. Of course you can go around and tell the car manufacturer: the car didn't properly protect me, I wore a seatbelt. You can blame the road authorities: you didn't build stable roads. The weatherman: you didn't explicitly tell me this would happen. But it happend anyway, and if you didn't take the road, you would be fine.

There are some examples of people who didn't trade CHF pairs anymore after the introduction of the peg. They did the right thing, even if they didn't earn anything on that decision, they protected themselves from this fallout (unless of course thery are with a broker that collapsed because of their poor riskmanagement...).
Fail better.
  • #14,231
  • Jan 19, 2015 5:00am Jan 19, 2015 5:00am
Quoting MaxDoom
{quote} that is my point, why do you think you are not accountable for the loss on trades which you entered on margin and now have to cough up the rest... be accountable, after all everytime you take a 1.0 lot trade on 1,000 margin you are effectively borrowing 99,000

Are you saying it’s good for the cigarette companies to encourage people to smoke as much as people want as long as these companies comply with the government regulation? Did you see how governments banned cigarette companies’ advertisement afterwards when they found more needs to be done?

Same with risk taking, there will always be people don’t understand the risk therefore tighter government regulations are needed. Who do you think these regulations are for? Of course it’s to govern the financial institutions not the general public. Because governments know not everyone is knowledgeable enough to fully understand the risk. Forex brokage companies now a days is like the cigarette companies encouraging people to smoke as much as they can by providing them excessive leverage and incentives. They are willing to take anyone on board.
  • #14,232
  • Jan 19, 2015 5:02am Jan 19, 2015 5:02am
Quoting MaxDoom
{quote} that is my point, why do you think you are not accountable for the loss on trades which you entered on margin and now have to cough up the rest... be accountable, after all everytime you take a 1.0 lot trade on 1,000 margin you are effectively borrowing 99,000
In my opinion people need to trade stocks first before trade fx. They need to understand what bid and ask prices. They should understand if no one want to buy asset how bid prices goes down all of a sudden with the daily limits day after day without any buyers. Than they need understand how leverage works in fx.

They think that putting stop lost means someone or brokers have to buy or sell (according to direction of trade) your asset at that price.
  • #14,233
  • Jan 19, 2015 5:08am Jan 19, 2015 5:08am
I think whatever needs to be said was already said. Obviously there are some who are angry, there are some who are desperate, there are some who are seeking help/advise and there are some who are here to "encourage" people to pay up.
  • #14,234
  • Jan 19, 2015 5:09am Jan 19, 2015 5:09am
Quoting tim10167
{quote} Are you saying it’s good for the cigarette companies to encourage people to smoke as much as people want as long as these companies comply with the government regulation? Did you see how governments banned cigarette companies’ advertisement afterwards when they found more needs to be done? Same with risk taking, there will always be people don’t understand the risk therefore tighter government regulations are needed. Who do you think these regulations are for? Of course it’s to govern the financial institutions not the general public. Because...
But what do you want? Regulate the fx-retail market out of existance because some (or a majority, I'm not sure anymore after these conversations...) people don't understand the risk? It's like those people who sued McDonalds because they didn't realize you could get fat if you eat their stuff on a daily basis.

@Rockerzeus: agree. But one of the reasons for me to get into fx was the better liquidity. Until there wasn't any... .
Fail better.
  • #14,235
  • Jan 19, 2015 5:20am Jan 19, 2015 5:20am
Quoting LarryDarrell
{quote} @Rockerzeus: agree. But one of the reasons for me to get into fx was the better liquidity. Until there wasn't any... .
I am sorry that it happened to you and to other people mate. I was trying to explain mechanism to some who don't know what they are dealing while trading fx.
  • #14,236
  • Jan 19, 2015 5:34am Jan 19, 2015 5:34am
Quoting Rockerzeus
{quote} I am sorry that it happened to you and to other people mate. I was trying to explain mechanism to some who don't know what they are dealing while trading fx.
No, no, don't worry. I wanted to say: it's a very good idea to have traded equities before. Generally speaking the fx market is much more liquid and thus 'save', but this incident was a very good reminder that this isn't a given.
I would still say that EurUsd for example is one of the 'savest' instruments there is to trade. But you have to arrive at this conclusion knowing the alternatives.

The level of naivity here is amazing. I paid for my sins of overconfidence, and rightly so. But I think I never saw this as a sure one-way-bet. I just thought it was insanely unprobable that EC would print -2000 (or -4000) pips in an instant. Well: i was wrong.
Fail better.
  • #14,237
  • Jan 19, 2015 5:57am Jan 19, 2015 5:57am
Quoting LarryDarrell
{quote} But what do you want? Regulate the fx-retail market out of existance because some (or a majority, I'm not sure anymore after these conversations...) people don't understand the risk? It's like those people who sued McDonalds because they didn't realize you could get fat if you eat their stuff on a daily basis. @Rockerzeus: agree. But one of the reasons for me to get into fx was the better liquidity. Until there wasn't any... .

Your spot on, because there are so many people so stupid by eating McDonalds every day and still wanted to sue McDonalds. That’s why government should regulate McDonalds to stop providing junk food whenever people get too fat. Like how Forex.com increased their margin requirement on EURCHF over the past year. It’s a bitter medicine for their clients to swallow, but great for them; similar to if McDonalds replace their junk food with salads if they see people too fat. Why it has to work this way? – Because there will always be stupid people, even for smart people they were stupid too when they were young. This is reality mate, not everyone is a professional like you.
  • #14,238
  • Jan 19, 2015 6:20am Jan 19, 2015 6:20am
Quoting LarryDarrell
{quote} But that is a case in my point: the earthquake happening might not be probable, and you might even don't know it could happen at all, but nevertheless it CAN happen. There is risk in life, so people buy insurance, there is risk in trading. We usually say that we risk - say - 1% of the account. But there is also slippage and then other risk (internet connection, market news, gaps, what-have-you). Risk management for a trader includes covering for that as well. And as well for the inconcievable event, the black swan. You drive your car in...
For ur info, rare are the property owners who have insurance coverage, 20% in the most earthquake zone. For several reasons like Normal Insurance do not cover earthquakes or similar catastrophes, u must pay 30% more to get it, and even if u have it the company will not simply pay u all house price but partial of it and only after u pay an initial amount.

I simplify such cases when u can't control the coming to DESTINY, and sometimes ONLY sixth sense may help.

If u believe or not, for 5 days prior to the swiss nb scandal, i had bad feelings toward my eurchf account, there was something inside pushing me to close all orders, this idea was repeated in my mind every day at that period, until the tragedy had come, few hours before had a dream about the fall and that nothing was left in account. Not all ppl have such sense or feeling and not all can take advantage of it or be sure it's a true feeling not imaginations as eurchf trading left too much pressure on all of us who traded it.

At end, I see it from the point of view, what I gained and what I loss from trading eurchf, the end result was good for me +xxx%, only bcoz i understood to withdraw my profits and kept deposited amount that's way less, but many buyers of this pair were more greed and left all amount in account dreaming of intervention etc
I can afford the loss or even if i was in their place(the whole amount deposit+profits) but most can't afford to loose it and am deeply feeling for them.

Swiss National Bank ruined the lives of many traders and families. What a shameful central bank
  • #14,239
  • Jan 19, 2015 6:27am Jan 19, 2015 6:27am
Quoting tim10167
{quote} Are you saying it’s good for the cigarette companies to encourage people to smoke as much as people want as long as these companies comply with the government regulation? Did you see how governments banned cigarette companies’ advertisement afterwards when they found more needs to be done? Same with risk taking, there will always be people don’t understand the risk therefore tighter government regulations are needed. Who do you think these regulations are for? Of course it’s to govern the financial institutions not the general public. Because...
I agree on that and add that the scam brokers(95%) enrich their contract with legal clauses that need a lawyer to understand, and it protects the broker at all times, whatever happens there's an excuse for the broker!!, many of us careless about it until a big event happens to discover the brokers cheating.
  • #14,240
  • Jan 19, 2015 6:30am Jan 19, 2015 6:30am
So no one long or short?

The range so far is 272 pips

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