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EUR/CHF

  • #14,161
  • Edited 5:15am Jan 18, 2015 4:52am | Edited 5:15am
Quoting Caa
{quote} Did saxo send u an official request for fund with a deadline to pay? They offered a certain leverage, they couldnt get you out in time, they share the responsability. Anyway i dont have what they are asking even in land / house. So snb has effectively created mass defaults.
they send to all email about revision of trades to 0.96 rate, no dead line to pay, they say to pay at first convinience, even if they ask with dead line i wont pay them as i find them responsable which is to clear according to their general business terms, check the agreemet and if you want contact me on email - [email protected]
  • #14,162
  • Jan 18, 2015 5:27am Jan 18, 2015 5:27am
Good day to all. I am also a "victim" of SAXO. Actually, I am client of Saxo partner in small EU country, I had some long EURCHF spot trades with stops above 1.2 and I was short with multiple put options. At the time of the event, my spots got stopped above 1.2 and after 3 minutes the margin call closed all my put positions at acceptable price, that was valid at the time of transaction. That all left me with about 25 % of the account. The revisions that came at the evening left me with huge negative balance. I have started to communicate with their partner and they invited me to discuss the matter.

Honestly, I am scared about the case, but as much as I am thinking about, I am slightly optimistic. There are many aspects, that made me to be. First, there electronic sistem was working properly, stopped us right at the point, executed the margin call, that should be there to protect the account. We all have the trading record, that clearly shows that. We know, that they have a small print clause in their rules, that they could adjust or correct transactions. But wait a minute. The common law is not that straight. Of course, brokerage house can write their terms on the way, they like. But that doesn't mean, that when the real case appears, they can just execute anything, also the procedures, that is clearly in the breach of honesty and standards. As of my knowledge, in such cases the law should protect the weak party. We haven't had the possibility to negotiate terms, when we signed contracts. Be real, they had a meeting, saw their losses and just decided to apply the arbitrary stop loss to anybody in the 15 minutes interval, regardles of the actual time of transaction, order of transactions and prices of orders. Even if somebody, will approve that clause, it is not intended to make thousands or tens of thousands on accounts.....

What about reliability of their sistems, risk management, if they had such exposure to this pair......a lot of things are of their responsibility. Why they had such weak liquidity provider, that they could execute first stops at 0.96, when other brokers had stop-out their clients at 1.19, 1.17,...... I don't believe, they will be able to pass this to clients. I am actually preparing the official request to return my account to the amount before adjustments.

I am interested to exchange ideas and arguments with other clients of Saxo, that are in the same boat...eg.Zoran22 Caa,..... Together, we shall be stronger.
  • #14,163
  • Jan 18, 2015 5:34am Jan 18, 2015 5:34am
dear all I also have negative balance as a result of the event. I use FXCM in Hong Kong.

On last Friday I received a call from FXCM asking for topping up the balance to zero and I told them that it will not happen. Instead i asked them to restore at least the minimum margin %. Of course FXCM's first position is to test the water and ask you to pay everything and they blame the whole thing to illiquidity of the marekt at the time and they are not responsible, I have my reservation on such statement. At least when you look at the eurchf chart on FXCM, the volume for at least the first minute was huge. When you look at the 1min chart by SAXO, you can see the drop in the first couple minutes was actually relatively gradual, and you can also even see some the first couple bars are showing long tails suggesting that there were buyers stepping in and the bars for the first couple minutes closed near where they opened. What I want to say is that while the broker tried to convince traders that there were no liquidity and no buyers, I still have my doubt on the statement but of course it is the most convenient reason for the brokers to convince you why stops and margin requirement were not exercised, and therefore providing a "legitimate" reason for them to ask for top ups. I cannot prove but I have seen enough rumors from forum saying that FXCM/ other brokers are B booking their clients so if somehow we can prove that they did even 1 single trade on their book during the scramble while shutting down the window for all their clients, we may even be in position to ask for more than your minimum margin %. But to investigate such would require the regulator to step in. I am going to consult my lawyer and file an investigation request to the SFC, the regulator in Hong Kong and I hope everyone should do the same in your respective jurisdictions. If they did b book their clients, that is for sure a malpractice by the brokers and whether we need to settle the negative balance would be out of question right away.
  • #14,164
  • Jan 18, 2015 5:34am Jan 18, 2015 5:34am
the greatest forex manipulation of all time
http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other...pro/vi-AA8eu4t
  • #14,165
  • Jan 18, 2015 5:44am Jan 18, 2015 5:44am
would appreicate it if everyone could help to post the chart of initial reaction from different sources so we can get a better picture of whether the liquidity was as thin as the brokers claimed. I will post the ones I can find from FXCM and SAXO when I am back to my computer. I think having a better understanding of what really happened would determine how we deal with the matter. Thanks very much in advance for your help.
  • #14,166
  • Jan 18, 2015 5:49am Jan 18, 2015 5:49am
and here is the dead line form saxobank for paying till 23.1.2015., really funny people,
  • #14,167
  • Jan 18, 2015 6:05am Jan 18, 2015 6:05am
Quoting zoran22
and here is the dead line form saxobank for paying till 23.1.2015., really funny people,
It seems they are in hurry, which means they are going to be insolvent quite soon. Most probably, insiders (who knew about SNB decision) bought FX options and now are demanding tremendous amount of cash as a profit.
  • #14,168
  • Jan 18, 2015 6:09am Jan 18, 2015 6:09am
Quoting Fxworld
the greatest forex manipulation of all time http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other...pro/vi-AA8eu4t
This is worse than hildeband wife scandal, though i believe they covered the conspiracy by turning eyes on her only.

flows into switzerland in dec. and danthine assure cap last monday.

Biggest conspiracy in market history.

jordan and swiss nb members must be taken to court.

this is no joke, swiss nb ruined the lives of thousands of people companies families
  • #14,169
  • Jan 18, 2015 6:09am Jan 18, 2015 6:09am
Quoting zoran22
and here is the dead line form saxobank for paying till 23.1.2015., really funny people,
they are funny, in 2008 after the crash i widraw all from them,...and my money went to etoro, still bad broker (charts are awefull, trade against you, bad timing in volatility, but as oanda, and ducascopy to BIG to go down ), but as per forum conversation i am folowing right now etoro allow negative balance, but Will not demand to be repaied, account needs to be opened 1 more time,...They kinda want to say, if you want you can repay the negative account,...but we Will not demand it, and we all know why not, because they Will looose clients, and that means loosing the bussiness, and saxo is one of the first which seriously Will loose them , hate that danish wanna be pro, but no way close to, just fancy platforma, charts, but in circumstances like that arogant as shit, ... and not cheap broker at offline platforma the cost was or is 10 usd just to open 1 position in forex...
its just money
  • #14,170
  • Jan 18, 2015 6:23am Jan 18, 2015 6:23am
Quoting zoran22
and here is the dead line form saxobank for paying till 23.1.2015., really funny people,
yeah, tell saxo to piss off. ill contact my layer on monday to discuss suing oanda for breaching contract terms and conditions by not respecting margin req. and stop out, close of all orders etc instead of giving us favor of returning negative to zero balance. ill contact the NFA and file a complaint.

what do you think is the rate of success in such case?, knowing their only option is saying high volatility due to swiss nb cap remove but let them prove no liquidity before exit prices.
  • #14,171
  • Jan 18, 2015 6:35am Jan 18, 2015 6:35am
Quoting Harris27
{quote} yeah, tell saxo to piss off. ill contact my layer on monday to discuss suing oanda for breaching contract terms and conditions by not respecting margin req. and stop out, close of all orders etc instead of giving us favor of returning negative to zero balance. ill contact the NFA and file a complaint. what do you think is the rate of success in such case?, knowing their only option is saying high volatility due to swiss nb cap remove but let them prove no liquidity before exit prices.
your chances of success are about zero...... stops are not guaranteed, all trades are subject to liquidity, and you happily entered into leveraged trading... remember all those disclaimers you agreed too.... "leverage trading is high risk, you may lose more than your deposit" etc.

it will not be difficult to prove the market was lacking liquidity...
  • #14,172
  • Jan 18, 2015 6:40am Jan 18, 2015 6:40am
Quoting Harris27
{quote} yeah, tell saxo to piss off. ill contact my layer on monday to discuss suing oanda for breaching contract terms and conditions by not respecting margin req. and stop out, close of all orders etc instead of giving us favor of returning negative to zero balance. ill contact the NFA and file a complaint. what do you think is the rate of success in such case?, knowing their only option is saying high volatility due to swiss nb cap remove but let them prove no liquidity before exit prices.
all broker, at least most of them are in deep shit,
i will also put complaint to saxobank to return my account to positive as it should be closed at positive,
rate of success depends of court and agreement, as this is mostly OTC market and none of transaction is booked by any state regulator, it is transaction between you and your broker, to get money back in situaton like this it is difficult, at least 0 account should be done
  • #14,173
  • Jan 18, 2015 6:47am Jan 18, 2015 6:47am
Quoting MaxDoom
{quote} your chances of success are about zero...... stops are not guaranteed, all trades are subject to liquidity, and you happily entered into leveraged trading... remember all those disclaimers you agreed too.... "leverage trading is high risk, you may lose more than your deposit" etc. it will not be difficult to prove the market was lacking liquidity...
sure it wont be difficult for them to prove that liquidity was low,
but it will be very easy to prove their obligations in situations like this also written in their contract, as they act as market makers, and all transaction with them are OTC
  • #14,174
  • Jan 18, 2015 6:58am Jan 18, 2015 6:58am
Looks like brokers who trade against clients suffer losses because more clients having short positions than long .........

They are trying to offset the losses from clients who long .......
  • #14,175
  • Jan 18, 2015 7:10am Jan 18, 2015 7:10am
Quoting MaxDoom
{quote} your chances of success are about zero...... stops are not guaranteed, all trades are subject to liquidity, and you happily entered into leveraged trading... remember all those disclaimers you agreed too.... "leverage trading is high risk, you may lose more than your deposit" etc. it will not be difficult to prove the market was lacking liquidity...
then wats the importance of minimum margin required for open not get closed, margin call and stop out????!!!!

like this we all must trade as if can loose all money see zero or even negative money in balance, wheres trading condition protection brokers claim to provide.

high leveraged trading must had helped if brokers stopped orders at necessary margin etc
  • #14,176
  • Jan 18, 2015 7:13am Jan 18, 2015 7:13am
Quoting Ken A
Looks like brokers who trade against clients suffer losses because more clients having short positions than long ......... They are trying to offset the losses from clients who long .......
no doubt this is the situatuon here
  • #14,177
  • Jan 18, 2015 7:18am Jan 18, 2015 7:18am
Quoting zoran22
{quote} sure it wont be difficult for them to prove that liquidity was low, but it will be very easy to prove their obligations in situations like this also written in their contract, as they act as market makers, and all transaction with them are OTC
True, and not just say no liquidity bcoz of cap remove but prove it by showing data feed from lp's, where the 10 or more lp's brokers proudly show on it sites getting best prices from???

my orders must had been closed for minimum margin req. 1.1995 to 1.20 depending on chf value that time. so enough money left in balance.

no liquidity there, how? when most stops must be placed there!!!
  • #14,178
  • Jan 18, 2015 7:23am Jan 18, 2015 7:23am
I wish the account was with fxcm, they didnt bother to close orders until after an hour or at 1.03 hahaha so could had easily sued them to get the whole capital due to breach of contract etc
  • #14,179
  • Jan 18, 2015 7:28am Jan 18, 2015 7:28am
I request u guys post info about ur exit prices and the exact times (in seconds too), if there was liquidity at some prices at some brokers then others may have liquidity there too bcoz many brokers get price feed from same lp's, this will help on in the legal process. lets combine our efforts.
  • #14,180
  • Jan 18, 2015 7:31am Jan 18, 2015 7:31am
Quoting Harris27
{quote} then wats the importance of minimum margin required for open not get closed, margin call and stop out????!!!! like this we all must trade as if can loose all money see zero or even negative money in balance, wheres trading condition protection brokers claim to provide. high leveraged trading must had helped if brokers stopped orders at necessary margin etc
you are missing the point.... margin levels, stop levels etc. work fine when a market has liquidity.... but the orders are executed at the time the price is hit or exceeded, if at that point there is no liquidity to exit the position then you get filled at the best available price, in normal trading this is fine because slippage is minimal.... in this case we have the mother of all slippage.... a brokers obligation to trade your exit is just that, it is not their obligation to fill it at a certain price if the market has not liquidity to settle the trade...

personally, I agree that the SNB could have warmed the market up to the changes with some indirect comments to start setting market expectations and make it less of an impact..... on the other hand I have avoided trading CHF myself for the simple reason that CHF is a smaller currency and it was being manipulated with the 1.20 dam and sooner or later that would change, and now it has.... so take smaller currency = less liquid by comparison to others, take 1.20 dam as beyond market forces, pull the dam away and market forces take over in this case correcting the value of the CHF in an instant..... some people saw this coming..... there were warning signs over the last couple of months as well as margins started tightening on CHF..

so you could say:
margin trading = higher risk....
margin trading smaller currency = higher risk still...
margin trading smaller currency that is being manipulated = extremely high risk...

money makes money, if you don't have much trade safer, low margin, low risk, whilst some brokers have much to answer for generally in their practices, blame shifting ones own decision to trade extremely high risk is a little unfair.... that said I feel sorry for those that have lost money as a result of this
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