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  • #2,321
  • Nov 6, 2011 11:23pm Nov 6, 2011 11:23pm
Quoting MaryJane
Hi Eval,

just took a quick journey through your thread ..although my own trading methods differ from yours, I'm always all ears about anything that seems to work and it's at least somehow quantifiable, regardless of the underlying principle. Thanks for another dose of inspiration.

First of all, kudos to you It seems you have found a viable trading method for yourself, other people's success with your system only proves one thing: it doesn't matter that this or another indicator repaints, finally the success or failure depends on how...

MaryJane,

Thank you for your feedback it is most informative and very nice detailed writeup.

I do have some questions. I have FXPRO and Trafing Point platforms and they both have default settings just as you showed but I do have slightly different results that show when signals are occuring. I have include a screenshot of the settings you have said. Does that mean that because the bars look back 65000 they will give different results? I apologize but I am confused. If both platform have the same settings should they not produce the same results on the same machine?? If that is the problem then what setting is best for optimal performace? 5000, 10000, 20000, 40000??? If the indikators is truely a reflct of the past history then would one not wish to have the best reflection of past data to provide the best calls while opimize cpu usage and therefore lower refresh issues?

Honestly, I never refresh my screen until I am to place an order so I only refresh when I receive a signal at the close of the candlestick to make sure is a valid signal. Therefore, I am not refresh all the time....only when I am to place an order to make sure of any possible technical issue.

I must say this is an interesting point and could explain the differences in results. I will have to test it this next week and see if that corrects my discrepancies. Thank you.

As to your second section, the results that I reported are because I used the Symphonie Indikators and apply account balance protection techniques that I outlined in this thread. As I stated in the beginning I was very encouraged by the results and think I have proven them as I again have started a new thread account and have been able to continue to grow it even through a very tough last week. At one point, the account was holding a large carry trade but I believe if you read though the thread I did explain why. (in case you missed post #1521) It was because I was testing an EA and it went crazy and opened up multiple orders (over 100) and did not close them. By the time I realized it was carring an 8300 carry trade. Reread the thread and I believe your answers are there at that will explain this point. Under normal circumstances there is a small or no carry trade.

Stoploss....I use stoploss and in 15 min timframe I use 75 pips. No. I am not seriously good I am pretty average trader and I make many mistakes all the time I just trade the way I trade that is all. Posting all the exact trades in a report will just cloud the issue and no I will not post them.

I do not wish to get so caught up in looking at the leaves on one tree that causes people miss the entire forrest. Posting a trade log will only open up to questions of why did you do that at that time because the history says different and how come you did that? My answer will always be the same. I trade when Symphonie System give me a signal. If there is a repaint then I correct the order and keep with the Symphonie Signals that show the trend. (that can be to your advantage because of double down situations or multiple reentry points) There is no other explaination than that. Looking at history on a repainting indikator will always show perfection. THIS SYSTEM IS NOT PERFECT nor do I claim it perfect. It will make wrong calls but I have found through many trials and errors that this System is more right than wrong and with proper chart interpretation (yes you do need to learn chart patterns) good strategy, and proper money management skills you can grow your account at a consistant rate.

You are correct!! I no longer have an obligation to prove anything because I believe I have done just that over the past 155 pages of this thread. To you and all who seek answers....they are here in this thread. All you have to do is just read.

If you are searching for the Holy Grail....go somewhere else because it is not here. For those who seel to trade and win each time...it is NOT here and you need to seek another thread. However, to those that seek a system that will assist you in trading consistance, help you with money management skills and provide you with a rigid trade strategy to be a consistance trader that can turn results; then this trade MAY help you and be the thing you seek. But I make no promises or guarrantees because the hardest part is you.

Happy Trading,

Evaluator
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: Symphonie Screenshot 91.jpg Size: 78 KB
  • #2,322
  • Nov 6, 2011 11:32pm Nov 6, 2011 11:32pm
Quoting Eugenides
i knew presence of some hideous MM there. if a newbie follow this system like a robot he may break-even. but no 35% return in a month. its impossible with the risks mentioned dude.

be it any manual system, the system is 30% good as the skills of the user so we be better. if we don't have skills(price action, fibs, pivots, SR, psycho lvls, news, candle patterns, market hours& psychology) we are as good as an EA, consequently we will loose for the same reason why EAs loose in the end.

any manual system that...
Eugenides,

If you seek perfection. You will not find it here. I suggest you move on to another thread. But if you want to learn a system that will provide you with easier strategy and money management then Symphonie Trader System can provide you a good foundation. What you do with it and how you interpret is all up to your personal disipline and knowedge.

Best of luck,

Evaluator.
  • #2,323
  • Nov 6, 2011 11:35pm Nov 6, 2011 11:35pm
Quoting Aztrader2
I'm reading this thread from the principle, and now I'm still at page 68....
I write here because I didn't find here (FF) or in other forums people more patient than Evaluator.
Always in a thread there are people who says it's right or it's wrong, expecially when using repainting indicators, but almost nobody (after more than 1000 posts) still answer quietly to the some old questions as Evaluator does!
Maybe it's because he is so confident in his system? As I see the statements prove it..... isn't it?

So I wish to thank Ev for the great...
Aztrader2,

Thank you very much for your comments. They are most appreciated. I hope you find this thread informative and helpful in your trading experience.

Eval
  • #2,324
  • Nov 6, 2011 11:42pm Nov 6, 2011 11:42pm
Evaluator: can you point me out as to how to join the skype room?
  • #2,325
  • Nov 6, 2011 11:46pm Nov 6, 2011 11:46pm
Quoting johnjwong
Evaluator: can you point me out as to how to join the skype room?
johnjwong,

Contact cmac0351 in skype and ask to join the ST Group.

Eval.
  • #2,326
  • Nov 7, 2011 1:12am Nov 7, 2011 1:12am
Quoting MaryJane
Simply great idea I was thinking about finding some lows or highs and counting from that point but these get taken out etc, too much complication!

it would be great if you could code it, remember a time offset against broker time (+/- hours, no fancy GMT/DST things necessary imo). take a look at steve's nicotina bot thread, people can make WW3 out of such banalities.. btw mbkennel shared a GMT sync library here on ff but idk (didn't use it). meanwhile, i will try to tweak the logic

thanks

edit: watching the mod i posted...
Ok. i modified the cycle indi that you can put a fixed datetime for calculation. my datetime i set is the london open last week. you have to calculate the datetime of your broker at which candle this would be. I use IBFX and their timezone setting is the same like london time so i set 2011.10.31 08:00.

@MaryJane: this would be difficult to see in visual backtestmode because if you start 'em MT4 would not load enough history and the cycle indi needs at last 250 Bars to calculate the ATR.

@Evaluator: i for my self uses only 3000 Bars in Chart & history to keep CPU usage low. and this is more than enough for the most indicators.

Cheers Mediator
Attached File(s)
File Type: mq4 Cycle identifier wAlert1 major (refreshfix+date).mq4   15 KB | 1,042 downloads
  • #2,327
  • Nov 7, 2011 1:27am Nov 7, 2011 1:27am
Quoting Evaluator
I do have some questions. I have FXPRO and Trafing Point platforms and they both have default settings just as you showed but I do have slightly different results that show when signals are occuring. I have include a screenshot of the settings you have said. Does that mean that because the bars look back 65000 they will give different results? I apologize but I am confused. If both platform have the same settings should they not produce the same results on the same machine?? If that is the problem then what setting is best for optimal performace?...
What matters is the starting point and that is the oldest bar in your chart. A set limit of 65000 (or whatever number) on both platforms does not mean your starting point is the same. In fact, I recognize the limit doesn't mean anything because you could have filled 225 days of M5 candles (that's 65K bars) in your chart on both platforms but if they start with different candles (just one 5min candle more or less) then the indy output will be different. The count does not have to do anything with signal quality. It's not that 65000 bars would give you better spikes than 500 bars! In fact, I have observed basically two or three possible states (too jagged, too flat and optimal) that alternate with the barcount, changing with bare one candle added. Me and Mediator are working on a final fix showing the same on every platformt, pls be patient.

LOL! I see Mediator posted a new version as i type

Quoting Evaluator
Honestly, I never refresh my screen until I am to place an order so I only refresh when I receive a signal at the close of the candlestick to make sure is a valid signal. Therefore, I am not refresh all the time....only when I am to place an order to make sure of any possible technical issue.
If I may suggest, please try our mods (the one Mediator just posted could be the better one). It's output is always the same even if you switch TF to another then back. That was not the case before. From what I see in strategy tester and live market, the signals are more reliable; both extreme and non-extreme spikes - it repaints less.

Quoting Evaluator
As to your second section, the results that I reported are because I used the Symphonie Indikators and apply account balance protection techniques that I outlined in this thread. Stoploss....I use stoploss and in 15 min timframe I use 75 pips. No. I am not seriously good I am pretty average trader and I make many mistakes all the time I just trade the way I trade that is all.
Ok ok I just wanted to point out that MM can make or break anyone's trading results and that your statements (applause for them) should NOT be considered as achievable by everyone. You have mentioned that this is a complete system (or better said - a guiding framework), yet the most discussed part (and the power) is the entry - that's why even experienced traders like RJ and Jack checked in. In my opinion, the efficiency of an entry method can only be tested with pre-determined SL aka "I'm right or I'm out" approach, some basic exit strategy (1R at least), one trade at a time. Of course, trader's experience will - even in this case - make or break the account statement because experience provides the so necessary selectivity.

I don't use tight and hard stops but if (example) I enter off M15 and then a hourly candle (entry TF x4-x6) closes above/below recent swing high/low against me, then the entry failed in my book and if decide to hold the losing trade within risk limits and even add to it (average), then it's my choice but the success or failure of the entire trade has nothing to do with the first entry (I sometimes do such things, even counter, but only if there are massive signs of exhaustion).

I would be very eager to see some stats with one trade at a time (per pair) - because that would be replicable. With necessary portion of screentime (experience), PA knowledge and discipline, anybody could get near with time. Maybe (I don't promise anything because i'm short on time) I will put together an alerting or semi-auto EA and make such a test.

Quoting Evaluator
Posting all the exact trades in a report will just cloud the issue and no I will not post them.
Nobody can force you to do that but i strongly disagree with the quote.

Quoting Evaluator
However, to those that seek a system that will assist you in trading consistance, help you with money management skills and provide you with a rigid trade strategy to be a consistance trader that can turn results; then this trade MAY help you and be the thing you seek. But I make no promises or guarrantees because the hardest part is you.
This is fair enough. You have my vouch for your persistence and willingness to help others
MarginTrader All Time Return: na
  • #2,328
  • Nov 7, 2011 1:29am Nov 7, 2011 1:29am
Quoting Mediator
Ok. i modified the cycle indi that you can put a fixed datetime for calculation. my datetime i set is the london open last week. you have to calculate the datetime of your broker at which candle this would be. I use IBFX and their timezone setting is the same like london time so i set 2011.10.31 08:00.

@MaryJane: this would be difficult to see in visual backtestmode because if you start 'em MT4 would not load enough history and the cycle indi needs at last 250 Bars to calculate the ATR.

@Evaluator: i for my self uses only 3000 Bars in Chart &...
GREAT I have to go out right now but i will torture test it with diff broker demos in the afternoon.
MarginTrader All Time Return: na
  • #2,329
  • Nov 7, 2011 1:51am Nov 7, 2011 1:51am
Quoting MaryJane
What matters is the starting point and that is the oldest bar in your chart. A set limit of 65000 (or whatever number) on both platforms does not mean your starting point is the same. In fact, I recognize the limit doesn't mean anything because you could have filled 225 days of M5 candles (that's 65K bars) in your chart on both platforms but if they start with different candles (just one 5min candle more or less) then the indy output will be different. The count does not have to do anything with signal quality. It's not that 65000 bars would...
MaryJane,

Thank you for your contributions. Maybe we can refine the Symphonie Trader System and improve on its ease of use and reliablilty of accuracy for all. After all that was my purpose is to provide my system and experiences in hope they can avoid the loss of 1000s of dollars that I have lost and avoid the many pitfalls I have fallen into over the years.

I look forward to your final results on the best optimized settings.

Eval.
  • #2,330
  • Nov 7, 2011 2:08am Nov 7, 2011 2:08am
Symphonie Trader Tip:

One of the ever occuring problems is with the false signals of the Symphonie Extreme Indikator. Here is a trick I use that can give one extra pips of profit. If you receive a Symphonie Signal (BUY or SELL) after you place an order the price action moves 30 pips causing one to move stop to 3 pip profit and an Extreme Spike occurs. Let 2 candlestick closings pass to make sure it is not a false signal. If the Extreme Spike remains after 2 candlestick closes then you would per Exit Strategy 1 close the trade or in Exit Strategy 2 exit 1/2 of your trade order. You may find you get a few extra pips of profit because price action has not fully found a bottom and the extreme will most likely repaint at least one time before making any significant bottom. However, if the Extreme Spike occurs and the retracement candlestick is greater than the extreme spike candlstick by 2 times in size you can assume a extreme price action point has occured and exit earlier in your trade.

eval.
  • #2,331
  • Nov 7, 2011 2:37am Nov 7, 2011 2:37am
Eval, what if you're in a buy trade with 2 lots then a red spike appears and closes on a candle,then you exit one lot with +44pips profit,then the blue spike now disappears,do you add back another sell trade or let the last lot still run?

If you're in a sell trade according to all the rules and you're in -25pips and the red spike now disappears,do you exit the trade before it hits stop loss or leave it to hit stop loss

In the image you"ll see a 15 mins eur/usd chart .On the second white arrow,there was a blue spike;as price has come down and the blue spike disappears,do I enter a sell trade cause on the far end with the first white arrow,there is a red spike and all the other criteria for entering a sell trade is there?
Thanks Eval
Kasapreko
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: question.png Size: 28 KB
  • #2,332
  • Nov 7, 2011 3:07am Nov 7, 2011 3:07am
Quoting Kasapreko
Eval, what if you're in a buy trade with 2 lots then a red spike appears and closes on a candle,then you exit one lot with +44pips profit,then the blue spike now disappears,do you add back another sell trade or let the last lot still run?

If you're in a sell trade according to all the rules and you're in -25pips and the red spike now disappears,do you exit the trade before it hits stop loss or leave it to hit stop loss

In the image you"ll see a 15 mins eur/usd chart .On the second white arrow,there was a blue spike;as price has come down and...
Kasapreko,

That looks like a double down or a re entry situation. I explained it in the thread. Look for the post on Double Down or ReEntry.

eval.
  • #2,333
  • Nov 7, 2011 3:17am Nov 7, 2011 3:17am
Quoting Evaluator
Kasapreko,

That looks like a double down or a re entry situation. I explained it in the thread. Look for the post on Double Down or ReEntry.

eval.
Eval,how do I search for that?
Kasapreko
  • #2,334
  • Nov 7, 2011 3:17am Nov 7, 2011 3:17am
MaryJane,

This one is just for you. Here is an excellent example why I do not post the actual numbers on the trade report because historically if you look back it would just confuse people where (at that time) this is a perfectly logical Symphonie System signal trade. I like to call it bottom feeding (or playing the repaints) because you are catching the topping or bottoming of extreme spikes but gambling on the fact that there will be atleast 1 repaint per extreme spike.

You have a trade and then you receive an extreme spike but you do not think it is the actual bottom because it is the first extreme spike. Then you have a small retracement. What one would do is place a Sell order at the bottom of the extreme spike candlestick in this instance at 1.37200. Then as Price Action creates an Extremem Indikator repaint you would then immediately exit the trade on the next extreme spike. (do not wait exit immediately or price action will turn on you quickly and you loose pips.)

In this situation it provided a 20 pip profit....but if you look back at history it will reflect nothing and just confuse people because they will spend all their time arguing with me on why I took the trade and I am cheating somehow....where in actuallity it stay exactly with the way I explain the system and you get proper signals just as I said they would.

So, again....do not look so closely at the bark on one particular tree because you will be so focus on that you will not see that the entire forrest is on fire...and you will then get burned.

eval.

P.S. I block out the others because I want to emphasize extreme spike that repaints and disappears...not even a normal spike shows.

P.P.S. I find it helpful to mark all extreme spikes with vertical stripe to make extremes as they appear.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: Symphonie Screenshot 92.jpg Size: 114 KB
  • #2,335
  • Nov 7, 2011 3:53am Nov 7, 2011 3:53am
ok. so i understand is, if you have an extreme LONG spike and the price turn around but did not generate a valid LONG signal because it could only be a retrace you put an SELL STOP at the Low of extreme long cycle candle?

with this you trade repainting action and top and bottom picking?

now this is why some could be confused because this rule is not written down.
for me now everything is clear.

thank you for explanation.

Mediator
  • #2,336
  • Nov 7, 2011 4:10am Nov 7, 2011 4:10am
Quoting Mediator
ok. so i understand is, if you have an extreme LONG spike and the price turn around but did not generate a valid LONG signal because it could only be a retrace you put an SELL STOP at the Low of extreme long cycle candle?

with this you trade repainting action and top and bottom picking?

now this is why some could be confused because this rule is not written down.
for me now everything is clear.

thank you for explanation.

Mediator
Mediator,

yes. i did make a post along time ago on repainting plays as well as a post on doubledown and reentry points. they are very similiar but today just happen to be another excellent example to post a fresh update example to back my position. you have to play the symphonie system for the now and be totally willing to let the market guide you not think you can guide the market because it will burn you everytime.

eval.
  • #2,337
  • Nov 7, 2011 4:40am Nov 7, 2011 4:40am
Quoting Mediator
Ok. i modified the cycle indi...
unfortunately, there's still difference between different br0kers ..guess why. the crooks open(Sun) and close(Fri) their shops at different times don't know how to get out of this --you're right with the 250 bars (the range thing) so no point setting the start to Monday Tokyo open - would take a day to fill the minimum.

guess we have to dissect the algorithm. i'm convinced there's NO point to iterate across hundreds of bars to get a usable result from the indy. the indy is no miracle and imo it's improperly coded to mimick the behavior of the original but something got lost in translation. ..i'll install ninjatrader and check their script how it's done later in the evening.. any ideas welcome by then. i hate unresolved issues

Quoting Evaluator
MaryJane,

This one is just for you.
I see. Thanks for clearing it in everybody's interest
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  • #2,338
  • Nov 7, 2011 4:51am Nov 7, 2011 4:51am
Quoting MaryJane
unfortunately, there's still difference between different br0kers ..guess why. the crooks open(Sun) and close(Fri) their shops at different times don't know how to get out of this --you're right with the 250 bars (the range thing) so no point setting the start to Monday Tokyo open - would take a day to fill the minimum.

guess we have to dissect the algorithm. i'm convinced there's NO point to iterate across hundreds of bars to get a usable result from the indy. the indy is no miracle and imo it's improperly coded to mimick the...
This is why i would not use the first candle when broker server starts their datafeed. i prefer the candle at open london.
but you are right, we need at minimum 250 candles and this behaves in different results because the datetime settings has to be before weekend.

what could be done is to exclude the sunday candles for the calculation in the code. but different brokertimezone would lead into different excluding and the same problem appear.
the only thing what solves the problem is to use all the same broker for demofeed to compare trades.

Mediator
  • #2,339
  • Nov 7, 2011 5:35am Nov 7, 2011 5:35am
Quoting MaryJane
unfortunately, there's still difference between different br0kers ..guess why. the crooks open(Sun) and close(Fri) their shops at different times don't know how to get out of this --you're right with the 250 bars (the range thing) so no point setting the start to Monday Tokyo open - would take a day to fill the minimum.

guess we have to dissect the algorithm. i'm convinced there's NO point to iterate across hundreds of bars to get a usable result from the indy. the indy is no miracle and imo it's improperly coded to mimick the...

MaryJane,

I think you are also forget that different brokers pay different rates and have different connection levels to market data. Some is faster and more accurate than others and some have more averaged pricing action data tha others that may pull it as true raw data there for there is also a small discrepancy that brokers will report back to you different information that may delay or retard the true market price action that you see. I have heard some even delay the data slightly that way they are always in front of their clients on trades. I find this dishonest but obviously no one is taking issue with that or we would hear about it in the news.

So, there are other factors that you may not be considering when trying to solve this riddle inside an enigma.

Happy Hunting.

eval.
  • #2,340
  • Nov 7, 2011 6:37am Nov 7, 2011 6:37am
I would share with you even two scripts (LONG and SHORT) for M5 (50 pip stop)
Attached File(s)
File Type: ex4 Symph_LONG_50pip.ex4   2 KB | 812 downloads
File Type: ex4 Symph_SHORT_50pip.ex4   2 KB | 781 downloads
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