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Taking it serious and accelerating my learning curve

  • #1
  • First Post: Jul 6, 2010 9:34am Jul 6, 2010 9:34am
Hello guys

my first contact with fx was in spring of 09. since then i learned everything i could, which i consider was quite a lot.

i consider myself a beginner but educated. im past all the noob things like system hopping, superduper EAs and the like. i have developed a method that could work quite well. the only obstacle now is practice.

this is what i am thinking of lately: quit my dayjob, get a part time job in my proximity (to lower travel costs), and use the gained time for working my ass on practice, practice and practice.
this is why i consider this in the first place: im still fairly young, have relative low living costs and live on my own - i dont have to support anybody. cutting down on luxury expenses and partying on the weekends could get me by quite ok.

why i think this is a good way: like every skill, trading needs vast amounts of experience. working a full day job that is mentally demanding makes it impossible for me to do anything trading related in the evening because i lack the concentration needed. weekends - well you all now the markets are closed then

the point of this thread:
i wanted to ask you: has anyone done something similiar? what where your experiences and how did it work out?

i know that one member here quit his job and uni to learn trading, taking advantage of the luxury to still live with his parents, who support him. i envy you, man are you lucky (you know who you are )

PS: please dont give me the standard "trade the dailies, its stressfree and doesnt require 8 hours a day of your attention", because it is something that is just not for me.
you may have the opinion that im doomed to fail, im ok with that.
Patience is key.
  • #2
  • Jul 6, 2010 10:00am Jul 6, 2010 10:00am
I'll be interested to see what kind of responses you can get on this as I am thinking of doing similar.

I know what its like, you need the day job for the money but have no time to trade (unless you are lucky and can trade at work, I certainly can't).

Are you profitable yet?

At the moment I am taking lots of 'holiday' and trading around my work as I work a shift pattern. On a week off at the moment and am getting so much crammed in, it would be great if I could do this all day everyday!
  • #3
  • Jul 6, 2010 10:11am Jul 6, 2010 10:11am
Quoting Ultimatus
I'll be interested to see what kind of responses you can get on this as I am thinking of doing similar.

I know what its like, you need the day job for the money but have no time to trade (unless you are lucky and can trade at work, I certainly can't).

Are you profitable yet?

At the moment I am taking lots of 'holiday' and trading around my work as I work a shift pattern. On a week off at the moment and am getting so much crammed in, it would be great if I could do this all day everyday!
i have made 10% in may on demo, but that doesnt mean anything. i would like to prove myself that i can do this for an extended period of time.
i cant trade at work too, its just not possible (work- and boss-wise)
do you plan on a job change to gain more freetime? or are you using up all your available holidays?
Patience is key.
  • #4
  • Jul 6, 2010 10:15am Jul 6, 2010 10:15am
Hi Moetzger,

There's nothing wrong with your wish to do this and possibly you can make it. And if you are consistently porfitable as in having made profits for the past 12 months month on month I would even suggest to do it right now.
Though I suppose you wouldn't even think twice if you had such record and wouldn't bother to ask here on the forum.
I demoed and learned for 2.5 years and worked towards quitting my day job.
Well thats what happened though I have been made redundant and things kinda got rolling a little earlier than I planned.
The last 5-6 months I've been doing this full time and still have to become consistently profitable.

Even now after occupying myself with trading for the past 3 years I realise how big a task it is. Often I felt that I was almost there and just a little push further would bring me the break through.
Many little pushes have passed since and now I think there isnt a break through. Just loads of little aha moments along which one slowly forms onself into a profitable trader.

Finally I realised that the main challenge is mental/psychological despite having it heard 1000 times before.

Anyways to cut a long story short my advise:

 

  1. If you love it, ease into it as strongly and as safely as you can.

  1. Having low costs and not a ton of other responsibilities, especially financial ones e.g. credit cards, debts etc. take you time to eliminate those before letting yourslef into a trading committment.That's what I did and I cant tell you how glad I am that I did, else it would be hell now.This is very important to keep you carefree and focus on trading without emotional imbalance.

  1. Be prepared to get bored sometimes AND NOT to pull the trigger on a half baked trade, cant emphasize this enough.

  1. Maintain a "life" though, do things you enjoy asides from trading.Not only will it make your life more rounded but it will help you stay happy and mentally more balanced, very important for trading.

  1. Oh, and allow yourself time, and I mean A LOT of time.

There you go, wish me luck as I do to you.

Be like a post stamp! Stick to it until you get there!
  • #5
  • Jul 6, 2010 10:22am Jul 6, 2010 10:22am
I have traded the lower timeframes for years......and as much as I hate to say it .....you will only get the mega pips when you start trading the higher timeframes. If you are trading with the correct methodology, it should be scalable to the higher timeframes. I wasn't able to trade the higher timeframes until I started trading with a strategy that was in concert with the higher timeframes. I still use the lower timeframes as a point of reference for my entries though.
  • #6
  • Jul 6, 2010 10:23am Jul 6, 2010 10:23am
Quoting moetzger
i have made 10% in may on demo, but that doesnt mean anything. i would like to prove myself that i can do this for an extended period of time.
i cant trade at work too, its just not possible (work- and boss-wise)
do you plan on a job change to gain more freetime? or are you using up all your available holidays?
I have thought about it but to be honest I don't think I am ready yet. At the moment I think its safer for me to trade around my job when I can.

I am an IT contractor so can take more holiday than usual but I don't get paid for it! When I reach the stage where I am consistently profitable trading with the time that I have...I will think about quitting the day job.

Also I want to have a cushion of money to support me for say 6 months or so without having to rely on any trading profits, I think this is a sensible idea as then you won't feel as pressured.

Good luck.

Hey if it all goes t1ts up you can always get another job right!?
  • #7
  • Jul 6, 2010 10:47am Jul 6, 2010 10:47am
Hey moetzger

I remember doing exactly what you are planning to do now...

Everyones different but for me to stop everything and go to trading full time without any real long term results was very naive and foolish in hindsight.

Like you I had no massive financial commitments like a mortgage, family, kids etc so my weekly expenses meant I only need to make 10 pips profit a week to cover it.

Sounds so easy doesn't it?

Well for me anyway I found it quite the opposite because if say on Monday I started the week wit a loss well then it wasn't 10 pips I needed befoe the end of the week, it was now 30...

Another loss and its now Thursday, I need 50 pips and I'm stressing, I'm urgent, I'm impatient, I'm seeing things that I want to see and my trading suffered serverly. I'm not trading the markets anymore, I'm trading my livelihood.

These days I use my trading account simply for trading - i don't rely on it for income and it is so much easier to love. I can take the day or week off if I feel like it, I don't get angry at the markets if they're not moving, I don't hate on the US for having a bank holiday, and I can be patient and much more open to new ideas and have a more honest look at myself and whats happening with my trading.

One day for sure I want to be able to support myself through trading but as I came to realise I'm just not ready yet and thats fine with me.

Once you realise that this game takes many small baby steps you begin to appreciate the fact that IF you get there - it will be an invaluable tool you possess - not some money printing object that anyone off the street could come and learn in a few months. You gotta earn it.

Thats just me as I said everyones different, but I was convinced I'd be fine, and that I'm ready and I most certainly learnt the hard way I wasn't fine and I wasn't ready.

Mary Pippins made the best point You need to have a life outside FOREX. I totally agree... I'm back at University at the moment and its fantastic to occupy my mind with something other than FOREX 24/7, it can be so draining on your mental when you're learning... (not that we ever stop)

Try and be open to what people here are trying to say here - I know its hard - I used to block this sort of stuff out cause I simply didn't wanna hear it, and it cost me money and time. If you think you're ready then go for it but be very honest in your answer and think long term. The markets aren't going anywhere, take your time. Once you "make it" you want to have money left to trade with!

Sorry for the long post
Time hides Nothing
  • #8
  • Jul 6, 2010 11:26am Jul 6, 2010 11:26am
If you are replacing your income trading part time....then it is a no brainer to start trading full time. Otherwise, stay the course and keep trading and learning.
  • #9
  • Jul 6, 2010 11:30am Jul 6, 2010 11:30am
If you can do it, and not "ruin" yourself financially, meaning NOT go into debt, still pay your bills, and still have some money for "fun"; then perhaps you should try.

Ask yourself this question though, if six months from now you are not profitable or have lost 1/2 your trading account, will you still be glad that you tried?

I try to trade every day, it does become like work. Some days I make excuses and try to avoid it, just like a regular job.

Good luck either way.
  • #10
  • Jul 6, 2010 11:51am Jul 6, 2010 11:51am
THIS IS THE WORST POSSIBLE THING YOU CAN DO.

I put that into bold so that you would notice. A one-year apprentice quiting his day job to go full-time in the market is the quickest road to financial, psychological, and spiritual ruin. Short answer - don't do it. If you want the long answer, attach a copy of a demo statement that you've been running for 4 to 6 months, otherwise you've got nothing to talk about here.

This is a sincere attempt to steer a young buck in the right direction. I'm not some bitter old man telling you that you don't have what it takes to make your dreams come true. However, your cognitive thinking skills are rapidly declining and your ego is giving way to a really bad idea. Switch your strategy to higher TFs, or use a trading simulator for practice on the weekends.
  • #11
  • Jul 6, 2010 12:09pm Jul 6, 2010 12:09pm
thanks everyone for your replies

Quote
There's nothing wrong with your wish to do this and possibly you can make it. And if you are consistently porfitable as in having made profits for the past 12 months month on month I would even suggest to do it right now.
Though I suppose you wouldn't even think twice if you had such record and wouldn't bother to ask here on the forum.
yep, im nowhere near consistent profit. but i feel if i continue like this, i will never reach that goal.

Quote
Having low costs and not a ton of other responsibilities, especially financial ones e.g. credit cards, debts etc. take you time to eliminate those before letting yourslef into a trading committment.That's what I did and I cant tell you how glad I am that I did, else it would be hell now.This is very important to keep you carefree and focus on trading without emotional imbalance.
i am proud of myself for not having one single cent of debt. i dont have to pay back anything to anyone - so i dont have pressure from this side.

Quote
Be prepared to get bored sometimes AND NOT to pull the trigger on a half baked trade, cant emphasize this enough.
i know what you mean, patience is important, but not easy to learn

Quote
Maintain a "life" though, do things you enjoy asides from trading.Not only will it make your life more rounded but it will help you stay happy and mentally more balanced, very important for trading.
if i can devote 2 or more days a week to trading, i would be well satisfied and i could go on do other things in my free time. money wise its not a big deal, i can spend whole saturday nights in the local bar/pub spending only a few €s and still hav fun with friends.

Quote
Oh, and allow yourself time, and I mean A LOT of time.
i dont expect to be the uber trader after a few months. it will take as long as it takes.
thanks for your post, you made valid points!


Quoting Troikaone1
I have traded the lower timeframes for years......and as much as I hate to say it .....you will only get the mega pips when you start trading the higher timeframes. If you are trading with the correct methodology, it should be scalable to the higher timeframes. I wasn't able to trade the higher timeframes until I started trading with a strategy that was in concert with the higher timeframes. I still use the lower timeframes as a point of reference for my entries though.
i tried trading the higher tfs with my method, and it seems to work, but even if it doesnt need that much time, im not comfortable with it because of the distraction my job provides. i will try to do this anyway - thanks for pointing this out.


Quoting Ultimatus
I have thought about it but to be honest I don't think I am ready yet....
thanks for your replies - i can relate totally. if you can take advantage of your free time without putting yourself in danger financially, do it! i think it will pay off.


Quoting CindyXXXX
Hey moetzger

I remember doing exactly what you are planning to do now...

Everyones different but for me to stop everything and go to trading full time without any real long term results was very naive and foolish in hindsight.

Like you I had no massive financial commitments like a mortgage, family, kids etc so my weekly expenses meant I only need to make 10 pips profit a week to cover it.

Sounds so easy doesn't it?

Well for me anyway I found it quite the opposite because if say on Monday I started the week wit a loss well then...
thanks for sharing your story. im glad you tried it. it surely was a valuable expierence.
regarding myself, i dont expect to live off my trading profits from day 1. it will take time, and i dont mind that. thats why i want to get a part time job. im fortunate enough to have quite a big chunk of money as reserve, which i can use to get myself through tough periods. im certainly not blocking things out people say here - i am glad they do. i dont know everything, thats why i like to know other people's views on things. thank you!


Quoting Intu
If you can do it, and not "ruin" yourself financially, meaning NOT go into debt, still pay your bills, and still have some money for "fun"; then perhaps you should try.

Ask yourself this question though, if six months from now you are not profitable or have lost 1/2 your trading account, will you still be glad that you tried?

I try to trade every day, it does become like work. Some days I make excuses and try to avoid it, just like a regular job.

Good luck either way.
yes, i would not ruin myself. i would not consider this if i would, because its one of my top priorities to stay clean in terms of debt. i know that its very hard to get out of that red figure hole.
the question if i would still be glad to have tried it if it didnt work - yes, absolutely. i think that sometimes you have to take the plunge if you want to achieve something. and ther are few things worse than regretting not to have tried. and as i said multiple times, i dont have to risk my ruin financially, i just have to cut my expenses, which is absolutely doable.

if trading becomes like work, it has become what it should be. boring work, sometimes you love it, sometimes you hate it.


Quoting mr.marketz
THIS IS THE WORST POSSIBLE THING YOU CAN DO.

I put that into bold so that you would notice. A one-year apprentice quiting his day job to go full-time in the market is the quickest road to financial, psychological, and spiritual ruin. Short answer - don't do it. If you want the long answer, attach a copy of a demo statement that you've been running for 4 to 6 months, otherwise you've got nothing to talk about here.

This is a sincere attempt to steer a young buck in the right direction. I'm not some bitter old man...
thank your for your advice. you may have noticed i dont want to rely on trading, i want to get a part time job to support myself. i would never assume that i could live off trading right now. i am not a fool who thinks he is the best there ever was, not listening to advice of people who have been doing this since i was an infant. i dont let my ego take control over myself, i know this leads to ultimate failure.
i would like to ask you to post your opinion again and tell me what you think of living low-cost to get free time for learning.


again, thank you all for those long posts! i am a man who always has a plan when it comes to decisions with great impact and not doing such things impulsive.
i will start to evaluate if there are jobs that i could take in my area (i live in a small town, so there arent that many), because without such an opportunity, this endeavour has already failed.
Patience is key.
  • #12
  • Jul 6, 2010 3:34pm Jul 6, 2010 3:34pm
While it's great you're targeting large amounts of time to learn trading, I'd like to share an important bit of info I learned when I took a course in Cognitive Psychology.

Our minds are most efficient when processing information a little at a time. So, learning to trade will flow smoothly if we spend no more than 1 hour at a time collecting or analyzing info. Then, our conscious minds need to focus on another (unrelated, preferably non-intellectual) task, while the executive or sub-conscious part of our mind processes and digests the trading info collected earlier.

Alternating between these 2 activities (even several times per day) will produce a smooth and reasonably comfortable learning curve, reduce doubt, while increasing confidence, and ultimately, performance. There's also a tried-n-true learning strategy to anchor new trading skills - frequent drill and practice with flash-cards (hard copy or digitally).

And, here is a general sequence of important questions to help us teach ourselves how to be consistently profitable: 1. Where is the primary place to look for directional clues? (Hint - In the learning phase, it's not on the right side of the chart...) 2. How can I recognize safe, smooth trade-able trends in the early stages? 3. How can I find safe entry levels? 4. How can I know when it's safe for me to enter? - to exit? - to take profit?
Enjoy the journey, Suzanne
Mind Power Magnetizes Market Profits!
  • #13
  • Jul 6, 2010 4:37pm Jul 6, 2010 4:37pm
Quoting sunsue
While it's great you're targeting large amounts of time to learn trading, I'd like to share an important bit of info I learned when I took a course in Cognitive Psychology.

Our minds are most efficient when processing information a little at a time. So, learning to trade will flow smoothly if we spend no more than 1 hour at a time collecting or analyzing info. Then, our conscious minds need to focus on another (unrelated, preferably non-intellectual) task, while the executive or sub-conscious part of our mind processes and digests the trading...
@ Suzanne
Thanks for the info here. I wish this information was made available to me when I was spending 18 hours a day staring at price charts.

@ moetzger
"i would like to ask you to post your opinion again and tell me what you think of living low-cost to get free time for learning"

I think that you should keep things exactly as they are. Even though the idea of quiting your job, going part-time, or any other such variation to focus on learning may seem noble, I assure it is not. If I could do it all over again, I would have exercised more self control on this journey. Instead, I allowed the market to make my decisions for me. I think you know how that ends up... it's no different than an alcoholic waking up in some piss infested ally. You dig what I'm saying, right? The market has an uncanny ability of turning upright citizens into sloppy addicts.

Learn the market at your pace, under your rules, and maintain ego control at all times. This may come across as advice that seems a bit too cosmic for you, but until you "bottom out" (in every sense of the word) - you simply may not be able to relate.

"Have I earned the right to go full-time?"
That is the million dollar question. If your honest answer is yes... than go right ahead. If not... do the time. Coincidently, if you think your answer is YES, then by all means feel free to upload that 4 to 6 month demo statement I had mentioned earlier.

Try not to F this up... you're still ahead.

MM
  • #14
  • Jul 6, 2010 4:40pm Jul 6, 2010 4:40pm
Quoting sunsue
While it's great you're targeting large amounts of time to learn trading, I'd like to share an important bit of info I learned when I took a course in Cognitive Psychology.

Our minds are most efficient when processing information a little at a time. So, learning to trade will flow smoothly if we spend no more than 1 hour at a time collecting or analyzing info. Then, our conscious minds need to focus on another (unrelated, preferably non-intellectual) task, while the executive or sub-conscious part of our mind processes and digests the trading...
Suzanne, thanks for this post. some really refreshing thoughts! i have experienced the increased learning effect of concentrating for short periods, then doing something else entirely myself. but i would have never thought of applying this to trading. i will definitely consider this, independent of how my journey will continue.

that flash-card technique sounds interesting. i have never heard of it before, could you please elaborate on this?

the questions in your last paragraph are thought provoking. though i constantly ask them myself for quite some time now (in a slightly different way), its never wrong to have someone ask them so you actively think about them, not just passively.

very nice post of yours, thank you!
Patience is key.
  • #15
  • Jul 6, 2010 4:50pm Jul 6, 2010 4:50pm
Perhaps it might be possible to get a little more experience by trading on a simulator out of hours and weekends ?

I'm sure that there are software applications out there that allow real time replay of tick data (if not, write one, and live on the software royalties whilst you learn to trade)
  • #16
  • Jul 6, 2010 4:56pm Jul 6, 2010 4:56pm
Quoting mr.marketz
@ Suzanne
Thanks for the info here. I wish this information was made available to me when I was spending 18 hours a day staring at price charts.

@ moetzger
"i would like to ask you to post your opinion again and tell me what you think of living low-cost to get free time for learning"

I think that you should keep things exactly as they are. Even though the idea of quiting your job, going part-time, or any other such variation to focus on learning may seem noble, I assure it is not. If I could do it all over again, I would have exercised...
i can not relate with "bottom out". i too am definitley not ready to go full time. not even closely. i also know that the market can f**k you up pretty badly, i know some poor guys who have lost it all (although not through trading, but different high risk businesses).
of course i dont want to end up completely broke, wishing i would have never heard about fx.

i would never trade real money if i wouldnt have at least a 4 month track record of profitable demo trading. if you cant do it on demo, why try for real?
you say, i should learn the market at my pace. thats exactly what i try to achieve. as things are now, i almost cant learn at all. as i mentioned earlier, i am by no means an ego freak, never was. if i do this, i do this for learning purposes only, not for the bragging rights or because i think ill make so much money in a year that ill own the world. i think its a bit like going to university. most students (at least here in europe) are living as low cost as possible, work a part time job so they can support themselves, and the rest (or a great part of it) of their remaining time goes into studying. all i want to do is exactly that.

i dont think your advice is cosmic - albeit my age i have been through many life situations, and i have learned more than most at my age. i am a realistic person i believe, and ego control is something not many people have, but i think i have enough to keep me on track.

what i dont really understand in your post is, why are you relating quitting your job with allowing the market to make decisions for you? in my understanding if you let your control slip, this can happen in any situation, be it part-time trading or fullt-time trading, whatever. maybe i didnt understand you here, if so, sorry for rambling for no reason
Patience is key.
  • #17
  • Jul 6, 2010 5:01pm Jul 6, 2010 5:01pm
Quoting Razzle
Perhaps it might be possible to get a little more experience by trading on a simulator out of hours and weekends ?

I'm sure that there are software applications out there that allow real time replay of tick data (if not, write one, and live on the software royalties whilst you learn to trade)
thanks for mentioning this. after reading mr.marketz's talking about it, i have considered this for the first time. never thought about that, however strange this might sound. i will definitely give this a try and try out simulater trading this weekend.
thank you and mr.marketz for pointing this out to me. maybe this could help me wanting to keep my job
Patience is key.
  • #18
  • Jul 6, 2010 5:08pm Jul 6, 2010 5:08pm
Now you're talking! Simulator after work hours, and weekends. In the meantime keep the day job, save up a decent account size, and take a voluntary leave of absence when you're really ready to rock n' roll.

That's what a smart and savvy investor/trader would do.

Good luck to you.
  • #19
  • Jul 7, 2010 2:38am Jul 7, 2010 2:38am
I had being lurking on FF for a long time but I just feel compelled to reply to your thread.

I am a full time intraday trader who took the jump by quitting my daytime job. Perhaps, I can help by offering a few comments for discussion.

First of all, before you make the jump, you must ascertain this: Do you have an edge that you can consistently exploit? You are ready to do full time if you are confident on this. Failure is certain without an edge.....

Secondly, what kind of edge is your edge(if you had one)? If it is a statistical edge, you might consider keeping your job as you can trade the 4h or daily setups. You can just quickly enter your trade and SL and check when you are free. You will have too much free time if you quit your job. However, if your edge is something similar to what is described as "orderflow trading" here or perhaps scalping, you might consider going full time. You can definitely earn more and learn more if you take the plunge.

I wish the best of luck to you no matter which path you choose.

Best regards
  • #20
  • Jul 7, 2010 5:10am Jul 7, 2010 5:10am
Quoting mr.marketz
Now you're talking! Simulator after work hours, and weekends. In the meantime keep the day job, save up a decent account size, and take a voluntary leave of absence when you're really ready to rock n' roll.

That's what a smart and savvy investor/trader would do.

Good luck to you.
i just ordered an additional computer which i will use only for trading. this weekend im on vacation (completely forgot about that), so simulator trading will start next weekend. if i can work with a simulator and i have the feeling it works and i benefit from it, i will postpone the searching for a part time job for a while. this way i can wait for a nice opportunity and still learn in the meantime.
fortunately, initial account size will not be the problem.

thats what i created the thread for - to get new ideas/perspectives from other people.


Quoting ggcow
I had being lurking on FF for a long time but I just feel compelled to reply to your thread.

I am a full time intraday trader who took the jump by quitting my daytime job. Perhaps, I can help by offering a few comments for discussion.

First of all, before you make the jump, you must ascertain this: Do you have an edge that you can consistently exploit? You are ready to do full time if you are confident on this. Failure is certain without an edge.....

Secondly, what kind of edge is your edge(if you had one)? If it is a statistical...
congrats for making the shift to full time! did you have financial backup to survive for some time? i assume so, because if not it would have been sort of "get rich or try dying" adventure? whats also a major concern for me is, did you get support from your family/friends? i think it is really hard if everyone tells you you will fuck up and that trading will never work, etc.
i am sure i have an edge - i think you could call it "orderflow trading". but i am hesitant to let everything go and cut all fixed income right from the start, because what my edge is lacking is proof. i know that it works, but i dont know if i can work it to its fullest potential. which actually means i need to proof myself, not the method.

Quote
You can definitely earn more and learn more if you take the plunge.
thats what my initial thoughts where, why i even created this thread

thanks for your view on this, which differs vastly from most others who have replied, and for registering just to take part in this discussion .

i dont have pressure regarding my plans, so i will give myself time to decide what to do exactly.
next steps will be:

  1. simulator
  2. when i feel i need forward testing, try to get a part time job
  3. when confident enough, trade real money
  4. when performance speaks for itself, go full time

Patience is key.
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