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  • #161
  • Jul 30, 2021 12:57pm Jul 30, 2021 12:57pm
If price is manipulated with intent then supply and demand is not the driver of price. Instead supply and demand is a consequence of price manipulation. Who else manipulate price with such precision and consistency? The unseen entity aka master algo.
Know what you trade
  • #162
  • Jul 30, 2021 1:25pm Jul 30, 2021 1:25pm
Quoting BWilliam
If price is manipulated with intent then supply and demand is not the driver of price. Instead supply and demand is a consequence of price manipulation. Who else manipulate price with such precision and consistency? The unseen entity aka master algo.
Frankly, I am beginning to think the whole supply and demand trading strategy is BS. When it does work, it just seems coincidental.

Have you ever seen a supply and demand indicator play out in MT4's Strategy Tester? I have a very good supply and demand indicator. It appears to draw the zones accurately. But when you test it in Strategy Tester, most of the time the levels don't hold. In other words, the strategy doesn't play out as reliably as supply and demand proponents would like us to believe.

This tells me that it is useless using such a strategy to try to figure out where the market makers are going to make their next big move. I think the market makers approach to trading is much more sophisticated than anything we know. I would love for someone to prove me wrong.
Learn from your mistakes and march on.
  • #163
  • Jul 30, 2021 1:27pm Jul 30, 2021 1:27pm
Quoting here2there
{quote} If it is manipulated, then it is dirty. And yes, I believe it is manipulated.
Please explain how manipulating currency values is against the law.
  • #164
  • Jul 30, 2021 1:39pm Jul 30, 2021 1:39pm
Quoting BWilliam
If price is manipulated with intent then supply and demand is not the driver of price. Instead supply and demand is a consequence of price manipulation. Who else manipulate price with such precision and consistency? The unseen entity aka master algo.
Supply and demand work just fine. It's the intent of the suppliers and demanders that might be throwing off your perspective. And there is no unseen entity. They are doing it right out in the open for all to see. Nothing mysterious about any of this. I think TimeTell's E$ chart is the perfect example of this reality.
  • #165
  • Jul 30, 2021 1:43pm Jul 30, 2021 1:43pm
Quoting GEfx
{quote} Please explain how manipulating currency values is against the law.
Did I say it is against the law? Or did I say it is dirty? Pay attention!
Learn from your mistakes and march on.
  • #166
  • Jul 30, 2021 1:51pm Jul 30, 2021 1:51pm
Quoting here2there
{quote} Did I say it is against the law? Or did I say it is dirty? Pay attention!
No, I said that dirty was illegal. If not, if dirty or clean mean nothing, why the subjective labels? Okay, you think it's dirty. What's the point?
  • #167
  • Jul 30, 2021 1:55pm Jul 30, 2021 1:55pm
Quoting GEfx
{quote} No, I said that dirty was illegal. If not, if dirty or clean mean nothing, why the subjective labels? Okay, you think it's dirty. What's the point?
We apparently don't share the same opinion on what is fair/ethical concerning this subject. I don't care to discuss this with you further. Have a nice day.
Learn from your mistakes and march on.
  • #168
  • Jul 30, 2021 5:25pm Jul 30, 2021 5:25pm
To whom it may concern and certainly not to here2there,

I think every nation has the right and the obligation to manage their currency, and to the extent necessary, to work with other nations to ensure a smooth and orderly currency market. To the extent that nations call upon their central banks and their large tier 1 banks to assist in this effort, they seem to do a pretty good job maintaining order. Before anyone passes judgement regarding fairness or ethics of this system, you better have in mind a system that is fairer or more ethical.
  • #169
  • Jul 30, 2021 5:39pm Jul 30, 2021 5:39pm
Quoting moodybot
Let's compare the prices of milk all over the world. 2.19 / 2.29 / 1.99 / 2.14 / 2.59 / 3.19 / 2.29 / 2.15 / 2.25 / 2.39 / 2.19 / 2.29 / 2.39 / 2.75 / 2.09 Just some examples. What is the average? Once you know the average, do you know if you are paying more or less than the average? Where is the time???? On a trading chart, there is time. Shouldn't there be time in the price of milk? Hmm. So those stupid fake lines you all draw and call support/resistance mean absolutely nothing because the candles you see and connect also mean absolutely nothing....
I apply a 3 period RSI and buy homogenized when there is a divergence between 2% and skim
  • #170
  • Edited 8:27pm Jul 30, 2021 6:44pm | Edited 8:27pm
Manipulation regarding Supply & Demand vs An Algo market???


It is certainly one of the most interesting philosophical topics in Forex for me and one, for that reason lol, that I have recently spent a bit of time on (such time I have to spare, I'm retired).


I might start at the End of a story and say my own thoughts now after (only) a few months specifically on this - is that neither are the holy grail of trading.


While ‘both’ (SD - Algo) look like nice areas, zones or prices to conduct any reversal trading at (for example) they, again after study, work like EVERYTHING else in forex it seems to me (ie indi’s etc) about 50% of the time.


The ‘better’ work I have seen shown on here, in regards to reversals specifically, is now RickMs work on the futures linkage. I have not seen this in action live, only reports on charts posted, yet that is enough. BW has something going for him also I believe in regards to an algo operation, though again I have not seen this in action live, only reports on charts posted, yet that is also enough for me. And Bilal has also shown some terrific work on here I reckon with his charts from his own deep ICT studies.


The price levels, zones I put up on my E$ charts earlier (for me at this stage of my study) I use for trading towards them, not away from them (and often at occurring inflection areas).

My levels ARE mathematically derived, I can say that, and in the case of E$ the period involved is over the past 13 years. (That time frame varies for the other majors that I trade). RickM mentioned 18 years in one post to me, which caught my eye, but I think he was referring to an actual price. Where the price levels I put up are not BASED on THE actual price level itself, which may seem contradictory sorry.


Many of my ‘price level actions’ occur, interestingly enough I thought, during the later NY session when I am in bed asleep - meaning that a lot of ‘activity’ takes place when both Frankfurt & London are closed and NY have the footy field to themselves - maybe a prime time for any singular algo/entity/group to do what they do (as there would be little I imagine other supply happening at that time).
  • #171
  • Jul 30, 2021 6:58pm Jul 30, 2021 6:58pm
Quoting GEfx
To whom it may concern and certainly not to here2there, I think every nation has the right and the obligation to manage their currency, and to the extent necessary, to work with other nations to ensure a smooth and orderly currency market. To the extent that nations call upon their central banks and their large tier 1 banks to assist in this effort, they seem to do a pretty good job maintaining order. Before anyone passes judgement regarding fairness or ethics of this system, you better have in mind a system that is fairer or more ethical.
You want to talk about what is unfair and unethical in the Forex market?

Why is it lawful for citizens of other countries than the US to hedge on a single account, and to not have to abide by FIFO rules, but unlawful for US citizens to do the same with US brokers? Not only is this unfair, but also unethical. It's unethical because these rules lawfully allow US brokers to discriminate against US retail traders. These unfair and unethical laws make it easier for US brokers to take money out of the pockets of retail traders. Such rules clearly put US retail traders at a disadvantage from the start.

It's clearly an unfair game! The rules mentioned above are proof of that!
Learn from your mistakes and march on.
  • #172
  • Jul 30, 2021 7:16pm Jul 30, 2021 7:16pm
Quoting TimeTells
Manipulation regarding Supply & Demand vs An Algo market??? It is certainly one of the most interesting philosophical topics in Forex for me and one, for that reason lol, that I have recently spent a bit of time on (such time I have to spare, I'm retired). I might start at the End of a story and say my own thoughts now after (only) a few months specifically on this - is that neither are the holy grail of trading. While ‘both’ (SD - Algo) look like nice areas, zones or prices to conduct any reversal trading at (for example) they, again after study,...
Everything looks lovely in hindsight!

There is a reason why you don't see braggers share their trades in real time. Except for a few rare cases, most of these people are full of BS! It's easy for people to cherry pick trades they have won and say, "See, my strategy works!" And then they post some bad ones from time to time, perhaps to make it look more legit.

I don't want to see the winners in hindsight that are easy to cherry pick or to manipulate using photoshop. I want to see the trades that are taken at the time when they are taken. In other words, give the entry price, stop loss, and take profit, and a reason to justify the trade. I want to see the results of at least 100 consecutive trades. Then we can have a clear picture of how successful the strategy is, and how skilled the trader is.

But you likely won't see people do that in here. For if they start posting every trade idea in real time, the truth will come out, and many will be exposed as charlatan traders.
Learn from your mistakes and march on.
  • #173
  • Jul 30, 2021 7:20pm Jul 30, 2021 7:20pm
Quoting here2there
{quote} You want to talk about what is unfair and unethical in the Forex market?
No, I have absolutely no interest in talking about that! We went from talking about whether the forex market is clean/dirty, legal/illegal, and fair-ethical/unfair-unethical to complaining about brokers. Not going there with ya! Best wishes!
  • #174
  • Jul 30, 2021 7:28pm Jul 30, 2021 7:28pm
Quoting here2there
{quote}
I want to see the results of at least 100 consecutive trades. Then we can have a clear picture of how successful the strategy is, and how skilled the trader is. But you likely won't see people do that in here. For if they start posting every trade idea in real time, the truth will come out, and many will be exposed as charlatan traders.

Hi H2T (edit sorry lol),

Crikey lol. It's interesting (to me) that you quoted my post yet the only part you mentioned was in relation to seeing trades live.

I can see that is an issue with you and I have no comment to make (surprisingly, to some ) as that is your way of assessing a trader.


Now I did mention I choose to believe, the 3 folks I mentioned in my post (and there are others I did not get around to mentioning).

And I have my reasons for such belief.

I can dismiss one trade that a person puts up (after) here on FF. But I use my own logic to assess a trader. Especially when they put up multiple charts, over and over. And from that I can make my opionion on that trader.

Why any trader would want to stop their trading and post what they're now doing on an FF thread to prove anything to anyone is actually beyond my comprehension.


And also I agree with GEfx re his comments on what folks often refer to as manipulation, as in a dirty way.

In fact, looking at that point alone, and considering some of the largest participants in forex who have absolutely massive amounts flowing thorugh this market, then I believe our markets could NOT operate in any other way than how it does, period.
  • #175
  • Jul 30, 2021 7:30pm Jul 30, 2021 7:30pm
Quoting GEfx
{quote} No, I have absolutely no interest in talking about that! We went from talking about whether the forex market is clean/dirty, legal/illegal, and fair-ethical/unfair-unethical to complaining about brokers. Not going there with ya! Best wishes!
You are missing the point! Such unfair and unethical laws clearly evidence that the Forex market is not a fair market, and is therefore, dirty! But I wouldn't expect someone who apparently favors market manipulation to care about such things.
Learn from your mistakes and march on.
  • #176
  • Jul 30, 2021 7:39pm Jul 30, 2021 7:39pm
Quoting TimeTells
{quote} Hi H2T (edit sorry lol), Crikey lol. It's interesting (to me) that you quoted my post yet the only part you mentioned was in relation to seeing trades live. I can see that is an issue with you and I have no comment to make (surprisingly, to some ) as that is your way of assessing a trader...
If a person has time to brag, then they have time to back their words up. Otherwise, what point is there in bragging? FF is filled with ego. It's not wrong to call people out on their bragging.

If this is of little concern to you, then it's your choice to be gullible. But don't expect me to think like you. The Forex market is filled with fraudsters. I have good reason to be skeptical of outrageous claims, and of braggers.
Learn from your mistakes and march on.
  • #177
  • Jul 30, 2021 7:48pm Jul 30, 2021 7:48pm
Quoting TimeTells
The price levels, zones I put up on my E$ charts earlier (for me at this stage of my study) I use for trading towards them, not away from them (and often at occurring inflection areas).
That is how I view target. I like to trade to them, then observe PA to make trade decisions from there. That is what bankers do, and you saw that play out in PA as your level was hit. They had quite a conversation today as they debated where to go next. I reviewed my trading notes in review of how that level was created, how the target below was created, then hit, and the subsequent PA that brought us back to where we are today (basically, the story of the chart you posted). No mystery entity, just greedy bankers doing what they do.
  • #178
  • Jul 30, 2021 7:54pm Jul 30, 2021 7:54pm
Quoting here2there
{quote}
If a person has time to brag, then they have time to back their words up. Otherwise, what point is there in bragging?
FF is filled with ego. It's not wrong to call people out on their bragging.
If this is of little concern to you, then it's your choice to be gullible. But don't expect me to think like you.
The Forex market is filled with fraudsters. I have good reason to be skeptical of outrageous claims, and of braggers.

Hi H2T,

Wow lol.

You look at the world in a completely different way to myself. But that is okay. I do not say I am right and you are wrong. Just different.


I will say that what you see as bragging, I see as someone just posting what THEY see in the markets.

That has been helpful to me in my short period in Forex (bout 4 years now).


And when someone posts what they SEE in the markets, bragging is the last thing I work on in my assessment of that post lol.

What I do is, immediately open up my own personal template, and CHECK their trade or view against my own chart.

Do you see where I am going?

Once I compare a posted trade to my own trade possibility at their entry (and I guess exit to some extent) I can then make my assessment as to whether or not it has any value for me. (edit That removes any possibility in my eyes of gullability as you call it).


And even if it doesn't have value for me, the last thing on my mind is to call someone a bragger or fraudster. The last thing!

If there is no value to me I just move on.


You say you have your reasons and I can only assume that you have been burnt previously. In that view I can understand your comments.

all the best
Pete
  • #179
  • Jul 30, 2021 7:57pm Jul 30, 2021 7:57pm
Quoting here2there
{quote} You are missing the point! Such unfair and unethical laws clearly evidence that the Forex market is not a fair market, and is therefore, dirty! But I wouldn't expect someone who apparently favors market manipulation to care about such things.
Actually, I agree with the CFTC regarding FIFO. Why should forex trading differ from everyone else? And there are ways around FIFO, and hedging, too. The hard truth is, FIFO and hedging have zero impact on the quality of trading.
  • #180
  • Jul 30, 2021 8:01pm Jul 30, 2021 8:01pm
Quoting GEfx
{quote}
That is how I view target. I like to trade to them, then observe PA to make trade decisions from there. That is what bankers do, and you saw that play out in PA as your level was hit. They had quite a conversation today as they debated where to go next. I reviewed my trading notes in review of how that level was created, how the target below was created, then hit, and the subsequent PA that brought us back to where we are today (basically, the story of the chart you posted).
No mystery entity, just greedy bankers doing what they do....

Cheers GEfx.

It's an interesting topic for sure.

In a way, maybe you are saying the greedy bankers lol ARE the entity that others refer to, rather than there is NO entity.

But I don;t wish to further this can of worms . I have mentioned a few times 'whatever" is moving the market does not factor into how I trade.

I will say though, the E$ charts levels that I posted were on my charts well prior to any supply & demand happening around that level at a later stage.
(So do the bankers have those same levels, I am now considering lol, cheers)



all the best
Pete
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