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Attachments: The5ers - Trading & Growth Program
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The5ers - Trading & Growth Program

Once I had a coworker who was a Buddhist. I asked him to teach me Buddhism so I could understand what it was all about.
Instead, he gave me a cassette tape recorded by his head monk that addressed just the sort of curiosity that I had.

The head master said in it something like this: All humans have a desire to worship something, to look up to a greater power to seek guidance and they need rules to govern their lives by. Some find it in Christianity, some find it in Islam, some in Judaism and so on but if you haven't found the source of power that you are looking to worship, don't worry, we've got everything you need. We'll set you up.

I'm rephrasing of course but some people need their lives to be structured, looked over and organized by rules via a higher power who will hand out punishments if they astray from them. It seems that trading is no different.

I'm not trying to disturb the ones who have found their faith (or their preferred trading environment) and are practicing life according to the rules they have been given. Whatever it takes to be good in life is whatever it takes.

At the same time, there is no rule against the truth.
Letting the truth guide your life isn't always practical I guess. Not for everyone. So at the end, live and let live but the truth is out there.
Quoting OutThere
This is actually how it works....
Have we addressed this topic in the past?
I think I've read it in 8 years, several thousand times.
You did all these calculations, to show me that The5% ers make money.
I do the math, looking at what I earn.
Some basic difference, right?

We come to the end of the speech, because I too am good at turning numbers in my favor, but I learned from an early age, that mathematics is not an opinion.
Now: it's late and my head is purring. Let's see if my accounts are fair, because, honestly, I don't get yours back. But I'm sleepy.

All in the column, like in elementary schools. The figures are based on what you believe is the actual deposit.

I - I pull $ 275 out of my pocket. Not a cent more.
275
+ 06% =
1,000
+ 10% =
2,000
+ 10% =
4000
+ 10% =
8,000
+ 10% =
16,000
+ 10% =
32,000
+ 10% =
51,200
I - from 275 I got to 51,200 (my real deposit according to your calculation)
I have 1: 6 leverage and I am with a safe regulation: that of The5% ers and - until the last step, what I can lose is 275 $, because from my wallet, no more came out. IF I DO NOT COLLECT!

But I withdraw, and once divided by 50%, they are:
187.5 +
1,200+
2,400+
4,800+
9,600+
19,200+
38,400 =
75,787.50 - 275 (cost) = 75,512.5 (net) Money safe in my pocket.
I - now I have a FREE 51,200 account and + $ 75,512.5 in my pocket

YOU - fund your personal account with $ 275. Not a cent more.
275
+ 06% =
291.50
+ 10% =
320.65
+ 10% =
352.71
+ 10% =
387.98
+ 10% =
426.78
+ 10% =
469.46
+ 10% =
516.41
YOU - from 275 are at 516.41 and you must never withdraw.
YOU - if you want to have a risky regulation, you have 1: 500, otherwise you have 1:30 - 1:20 depending on the pairs and - until the last step, what you can lose is 275 $, From your wallet it has not come out more .
On the last pass, you have 516.41 and 0 (zero) in your pocket.

You see ... your speech in real life, I've heard it a million times.
It is that of a person who gets angry (and wonders) why he has to spend € 2.50 for a can at the bar, when the same can (wholesale supermarket) costs 50 cents. And he says the bartender is a thief.

How much The5% ers earns, I don't care. I look at my interests.
It's hot? Isn't there a supermarket within 10Km? I want to drink? I enter a bar, ask with courtesy and a smile for a can, I pay and I also thank.
He gave me a service and a product, which I needed and which otherwise I would not have had in any way.

Are you happy, leaving the house with your small bottle of tap water?
Do you enjoy not giving money to a business?
Happy you ... happy everyone.

But don't go all social media with this belief that you are right, desperately looking for someone to follow you.
Can you get out a salary to live (even after 2-3 years by hypothesis) starting from that $ 275 you have in your pocket?
If you succeed I am very happy for you. You have truly been a God. And I'm not joking.

If instead your speech is:
I take $ 50,000, put it on my private account and earn more than others .... what do you want me to tell you ... happy you ... happy everyone.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe
Quoting Trader-IT
{quote} Have we addressed this topic in the past? I think I've read it in 8 years, several thousand times. You did all these calculations, to show me that The5% ers make money. I do the math, looking at what I earn. Some basic difference, right? We come to the end of the speech, because I too am good at turning numbers in my favor, but I learned from an early age, that mathematics is not an opinion. Now: it's late and my head is purring. Let's see if my accounts are fair, because, honestly, I don't get yours back. But I'm sleepy. All in the column,...
Yes you are playing with the numbers. I never said you weren't good at playing with the numbers.
You are good with smoke and mirrors like magicians are with cloths and cages.

If I told a magician that he can't really cut a person in half and then let them walk away unharmed, they'd say how about I give you a cage, a saw and a drape and let's see how you create the illusion that a person is cut in half and then walks away.

Your $275 at 1:6 has no more buying power than a $275 with a 1:150 leverage. We discussed that previously and you didn't contest that. If you need to max out your 1:6 account to make money, it'd be like you are maxing out your 1:150 account to make money. If you are going to use only 1/3 of your margin to make money, it'll be 1:2 margin used vs. 1:50. I hope you know that.

If someone with a $275 1:150 maxes out their leverage use. it is exactly like someone with a $275 1:6 maxing out their leverage. You are just playing with numbers and relations to boost up the perceived balance in the account to look real.

And once again, you are good at it, no doubt. A webpage, a relation with an MT4 account provider which will provide you with any configuration of MT4 and leverage etc. that you ask for and a risk money of $875 is all that you need to execute your craft and making many times the investment. I am not arguing that.

So, good on you for finding a niche and capitalizing on it. Carry on because as long as there is demand for your business, there will be suppliers. Just ask the magicians. They only keep getting better and better.


PS: Sometime it's hard to tell if you work for The5ers or you are just a super duper fan (that's why I addressed you as if you work for them) but in any case, please carry on and don't let me distract you from what you are doing.


Also, I've said what I've needed to say. The5ers hasn't contested my 'math' or reasoning. All they said was that there are benefits to doing this which I can not dispute considering the amount of money The5ers are going to make from both the successful and the unsuccessful traders, yes, there are benefits to running this program, so see things as they fit you.
Quoting OutThere
{quote} Yes you are playing with the numbers. I never said you weren't good at playing with the numbers. You are good with smoke and mirrors like magicians are with cloths and cages. If I told a magician that he can't really cut a person in half and then let them walk away unharmed, they'd say how about I give you a cage, a saw and a drape and let's see how you create the illusion that a person is cut in half and then walks away. Your $275 at 1:6 has no more buying power than a $275 with a 1:150 leverage. We discussed that previously and you didn't...
Trader-IT explained it to you in a plain and simple way how it works. You still don't get it. I think it's time to choose a different career. Trading is just not for you. You just don't understand it.
Quoting OutThere
{quote} ...BTW robots4me thanks for all the indicators that you have made and posted for everyone's benefit. I have a few of them on my charts. I'm guessing you are 'working so hard' to help the community. Thanks for your help...
@OutThere -- you're welcome. That's what I do best. I'm glad we can agree on one thing...
Quoting Trader-IT
{quote} Have we addressed this topic in the past? I think I've read it in 8 years, several thousand times. You did all these calculations, to show me that The5% ers make money. I do the math, looking at what I earn. Some basic difference, right? We come to the end of the speech, because I too am good at turning numbers in my favor, but I learned from an early age, that mathematics is not an opinion. Now: it's late and my head is purring. Let's see if my accounts are fair, because, honestly, I don't get yours back. But I'm sleepy. All in the column,...
This math is indisputable. Please Out There, you are the one with the smoke and mirrors.
Quoting OutThere
{quote} Yes you are playing with the numbers.....
OK. In the name of the Matrix ...

I understand you. Really. In part I'm like that too.
But this is not a question of saving inexperienced young people who throw money into a Broker who steals and ruins them. It would be a fair fight and all honest traders would be with you.

Your principle is that it is best to put $ 275 in a private account and not join any prop company. The reasons are yours.

We have all tried to make you understand, that the growth you can have with your small account, whatever maximized leverage there is, is not comparable to what you could get with a sponsor company. And unfortunately we cannot argue about this. It is not fantasy, illusion or false magic, but the pure truth.

Your crusade, is to take people out of the slavery of a system?
They are not really the best target, prop companies.
There is much worse, and we have already talked about it, but this is beyond the subject in question.
Are you against trading, why do most people lose money?
What do prop companies focus on in all this?
Have you tried several times to get financed and failed with different companies?
I want to think this is not your case, but is it really the fault of these companies anyway? Is there any evidence that they cheat or don't pay? Not currently.

We are on different tracks in different directions (on this subject) and I think no one will ever be able to change the other's mind in the future, so why talk about it again?

And no .... I don't work for any company. Otherwise I could not open personal accounts with more than them.
And if that makes you happy, let me inform you that right now I'm negative, but not worried at all.
Indeed, this December I will be trading as little as possible.

I am in the process of modifying old and new tools (indy and EA), which will support my accounts and my different strategies, from January onwards.
This is what's important to me now.

If it is right (and it is right) to "live in the moment, the present" (Eckhart Tolle) it is also true that one cannot be unprepared for the future.
I prefer to accept the loss that I caused, with my mistake, and think of the best and simplest ways to face this job that I love, and to which I dedicate everything.

Because the best job a human being can find, is the one based on his or her passion.
I found it in 2003 and I'm still here.

PS:
Stop for today .... I meant tonight .... better to say this morning, since it's 4:50 AM here.
Tomorrow when I get up after a good sleep, I will devote most of the day to projects and only when I am tired will I return here.
On the other hand, I wrote today as much as a whole week.
I think they are all tired of me.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe
  • Post #728
  • Quote
  • Edited 11:50pm Dec 14, 2020 11:30pm | Edited 11:50pm
Quoting Trader-IT
{quote} OK. In the name of the Matrix ... I understand you. Really. In part I'm like that too. But this is not a question of saving inexperienced young people who throw money into a Broker who steals and ruins them. It would be a fair fight and all honest traders would be with you. Your principle is that it is best to put $ 275 in a private account and not join any prop company. The reasons are yours. We have all tried to make you understand, that the growth you can have with your small account, whatever maximized leverage there is, is not...
I'm sorry, the math you used in post #722 is flawed. I'm not going to break it down. It is exactly how The5ers are presenting things and it is further proof that it is working for them. It's your life. Do as you know best.

Edit: Okay, I'll bite but just with figures off the top of my head. $240 1:6 of The5ers is equal to $240 1:150. I think that is how we calculated it last week. So, $240 1:6 would be like $6000 1:6. Do you understand that we are talking about buying power of the same amount of money but at 2 different leverages?
You keep comparing the $240 (or $275) in a 5ers account with $240 of your own money again in a 5ers account environment. No, the $240 in your own personal account needs to have a leverage 30 times higher to be able to buy as much. So, it is just a matter of changing some numbers. You can ask your broker to set your leverage at 1:6 and deposit $240 and get the same trading conditions. The only difference is that you will have $275 instead of $240 to play with and you won't have to hand 50% plus of your gains to your broker just because it gave you the 1:6 leverage environment that you thrive in so well. Then you can just fund yourself with all those 50% profits that you were giving away for nothing.

All I have done is point out the facts. If I have applied at various prop firms and passed or not passed or whatever, has nothing to do with the facts.
If someone passes and trades for The5ers or any other funding company, they work together according to the terms of their contract.
You are probably assuming that if I passed, I would be happy and wouldn't want to point out the facts. You think I am bitter that I can't pass but you have passed and you are happy. That has nothing to do with the facts of the business model.
The argument of 'you wouldn't be complaining if you passed' is not a valid one.

If I passed. that spreadsheet image I posted would remain the same. It would still mean that I'd have to make 150% at my own 100% expense to be granted a chance to hand over 50% of my earnings forever. It still is true that The5ers would have very very initial exposure to risk for the profit they are expecting to get.

It all comes down if a salesman can convince you to buy something at a specific price. You choose to say yes based on the value that you give the item. If you think $24000 in your account looks so great (level 1) and you don't mind that $23000 of that is of no use to you, then you are a happy buyer. If you think you can make $2400 with access to only $1000 usable cash in your account, then you are a buyer. It makes the salesman happy and you happy. So by all means.

Also, I'm sorry you have to spend so much time to tell me that I am wrong. Let's agree to disagree. I wouldn't want to be the cause of you wasting your time. Have a good night/.
  • Post #729
  • Quote
  • Edited 12:43am Dec 15, 2020 12:26am | Edited 12:43am
Quoting Trader-IT
{quote} OK. In the name of the Matrix ... I understand you. Really. In part I'm like that too. But this is not a question of saving inexperienced young people who throw money into a Broker who steals and ruins them. It would be a fair fight and all honest traders would be with you. Your principle is that it is best to put $ 275 in a private account and not join any prop company. The reasons are yours. We have all tried to make you understand, that the growth you can have with your small account, whatever maximized leverage there is, is not...
@Trader-IT -- I think @OutThere's confusion is rooted in his misconception the amount you can lose is the same as the amount you can trade. They are not the same. Until the light-bulb in his head goes on, then this posting is simply wasting electrons and increasing global warming. And as a true progressive I'm sure @OutThere wouldn't want to be the cause of the earth's temperature rising 10 degrees due to his postings...

Consider a $250 account versus a $1,000,000 account with a StopLevel of $250. If my WinRate is 0% then both accounts will get closed right away. But suppose my WinRate is 100% -- which account would you prefer to trade? @OutThere would still prefer to trade the $250 account. I would choose the $1,000,000 account.
Quoting robots4me
{quote} @Trader-IT -- I think @OutThere's confusion is rooted in his misconception the amount you can lose is the same as the amount you can trade. They are not the same. Until the light-bulb in his head goes on, then this posting is simply wasting electrons and increasing global warming. And as a true progressive I'm sure @OutThere wouldn't want to be the cause of the earth's temperature rising 10 degrees due to his postings... Consider a $250 account versus a $1,000,000 account with a StopLevel of $250. If my WinRate is 0% then both accounts will...
Hey robots4me

Fair enough on your comment. It doesn't make my calculations wrong and it doesn't make me look like I am not getting it.

All you are adding to the situation is that to make this work under these conditions, you must have a laser accurate system to be able to turn $250 into 1000's. I agree. I have said it myself that you have to make 150% and then 240% to be able to complete the levels. All you are saying is that you are of that caliber a trader to do it. I can't wait to see you speed through all the levels to the very end.
Quoting OutThere
{quote} Hey robots4me I think there is something wrong with that indy you wrote about margin use for The5ers. So, fair enough on your comment. It doesn't make my calculations wrong and it doesn't make me look like I am not getting it. All you are adding to the situation is that to make this work under these conditions, you must have a laser accurate system to be able to turn $250 into 1000's. I agree. I have said it myself that you have to make 150% and then 240% to be able to complete the levels. All you are saying is that you are of that caliber...
I didn't claim I'm that caliber. What I am claiming is that the amount you can lose is not the same as the amount you can trade. And I used an exaggerated example comparing WinRates of 0% versus 100%. Realistically, your WinRate will be somewhere in between. The point is that it is advantageous to trade a larger account in the event your WinRate falls within a range where you can take advantage of it. If you are stuck trading a $250 account then even if you have a good WinRate it will take forever to build it to something substantial. And if you are a crappy trader then, I agree, trading your own $250 account or a 5ers account would probably end up crashing around the same time.
Quoting robots4me
{quote} I didn't claim I'm that caliber. What I am claiming is that the amount you can lose is not the same as the amount you can trade. And I used an exaggerated example comparing WinRates of 0% versus 100%. Realistically, your WinRate will be somewhere in between. The point is that it is advantageous to trade a larger account in the event your WinRate falls within a range where you can take advantage of it. If you are stuck trading a $250 account then even if you have a good WinRate it will take forever to build it to something substantial. And...
I hope you don't think that in a $6000 1:6 account, you have $36000 available margin.
Your available margin is going to be $250X6=$1500

To buy 1 standard lot of EUR, (100,000X1.21471)/6=20,245.16
That is how much available margin you need.
For $1500 worth, you can buy maybe .07 or .08 lots before you use up your available margin.
Then what happens when EUR moves the tiniest bit? You run out of margin and get a margin call.

You know what, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. Like I said, go make it all the way to the last level. I'll be very happy with you and promise to send me a post card with your signature on it, so I can sell it and make money off your fame.


Maybe The5ers can answer: If I have a $6000 account for the lowest cost plan, if I open up my terminal and want to max out my available margin, how many lots of EURUSD can I buy?
Quoting OutThere
{quote} I hope you don't think that in a $6000 1:6 account, you have $36000 available margin. Your available margin is going to be $250X6=$1500 To buy 1 standard lot of EUR, (100,000X1.21471)/6=20,245.16 That is how much available margin you need. For $1500 worth, you can buy maybe .07 or .08 lots before you use up your available margin. Then what happens when EUR moves the tiniest bit? You run out of margin and get a margin call. You know what, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. Like I said, go make it all the way to the last level. I'll...
"If I have a $6000 account for the lowest cost plan, if I open up my terminal and want to max out my available margin, how many lots of EURUSD can I buy?"

I believe they refer to this as "exposure". On the 6K account the max exposure is 0.65 lots. That can be a single trade or many smaller trades. Also, for each position, there must be an associated StopLoss that is no greater than 1.5% the value of the account. Don't ever forget they are not in business to give you money. They will not let you lose their money. They will never come out behind and you shouldn't expect them to. However, if you can work within their guidelines and you are "good enough", then there are benefits to be had.
Quoting robots4me
{quote} "If I have a $6000 account for the lowest cost plan, if I open up my terminal and want to max out my available margin, how many lots of EURUSD can I buy?" I believe they refer to this as "exposure". On the 6K account the max exposure is 0.65 lots. That can be a single trade or many smaller trades. Also, for each position, there must be an associated StopLoss that is no greater than 1.5% the value of the account. Don't ever forget they are not in business to give you money. They will not let you lose their money. They will never come out...
There is no way you can open a .65 lot of eur with only $250 of real money (losable) in your account.
How much margin do you think it takes to open .65 lots in a 1:6 account?
According to you, $1500 available margin can allow you to buy .65 lots or 65X.01 lots of EUR in a 1:6 leverage account.
You just can not use margin plus DD that exceeds $250. In fact $240 according to your comments a few days ago.

Are you practicing in a 1:100 account or something?

Like I said, The5ers needs to answer that question.
Quoting OutThere
{quote} There is no way you can open a .65 lot of eur with only $250 of real money (losable) in your account. How much margin do you think it takes to open .65 lots in a 1:6 account? According to you, $1500 available margin can allow you to buy .65 lots or 65X.01 lots of EUR in a 1:6 leverage account. You just can not use margin plus DD that exceeds $250. In fact $240 according to your comments a few days ago. Are you practicing in a 1:100 account or something? Like I said, The5ers needs to answer that question.
Sorry -- you're right. For the 6K account the max exposure is 0.30.

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: the5ers-max-exposure.png Size: 172 KB
Account X Leverage/100,000/Exchange rate

If you had $250 in an account with 1:6 leverage, this is how many lots you could buy with it:
250 X 6/100000/1.21436=0.012352185513357
If you increased the leverage to 1:150, then you can buy 25 X 0.012352185513357 which is about .30 lots giving you the same buying power.

In a $6000 account, this is how many lots you can buy:
6000 X 6/100000/1.21436=0.296452452320564

That is if your margin available is indeed $6000 but you have only $1500 available.
That is because your max allowable loss is $250 (actually $240), so you can buy only 1/4th of the 0.296452452320564 calculated above.

So, you can buy only up to .29645/4=0.074 lots of EURUSD

Max .07 lots that is and with the next tick and a tiny dd, you will get the pink MC line flashing at you.


I hope I have made a mistake there. Anyone let me know pls.
I'm not someone who calculates these things for every trade. at 1:500 leverage, I don't need to. I use usually 1:15 in a 1:500 account, so no need to get fussy.
Quoting OutThere
{quote} There is no way you can open a .65 lot of eur with only $250 of real money (losable) in your account. How much margin do you think it takes to open .65 lots in a 1:6 account? According to you, $1500 available margin can allow you to buy .65 lots or 65X.01 lots of EUR in a 1:6 leverage account. You just can not use margin plus DD that exceeds $250. In fact $240 according to your comments a few days ago. Are you practicing in a 1:100 account or something? Like I said, The5ers needs to answer that question.
"Are you practicing in a 1:100 account or something? "

I don't like to talk about my trading details --I'm still a rookie. But since I've insulted you a few times I suppose I owe you some additional details.

The past couple of weeks I've been trading @the5ers 6K account using an EA that trades 28 pairs. So far nothing to write home about -- just a little bit above the initial 6K value. But hundreds of trades and usually > 20 open positions at any one time. I'm still fiddling with TP and other settings, but I like what I'm seeing. Also, it has forced me to trade differently than I have in the past. In the past I would always go for maximizing profit. I'm okay with trading without a StopLoss and with my own accounts I have the luxury of waiting-out the large DDs. But with @the5ers I don't have that luxury. It's all about risk management and avoiding large DD. That's something I've rarely paid attention to in the past, but now I've begun to better appreciate it.

Also, as a US client the pickings are very slim for non-US brokers that will accept US clients. But with a prop firm that is no longer an issue. I just pay the registration fee. No documentation, no 10% fintech costs transferrring money in / out each way. For $275 I get to lose $240. The $240 that I could lose trading with @the5ers I could also lose trading my own account. From my perspective, I'm paying $35 for the opportunity of eventually trading a much larger account funded with someone else's money -- if I'm "good enough". For me it's a no-brainer -- trading a @the5ers account is like trading in a sandbox and more realistic than a demo account. Plus, if I pass, they promote the account with their money. Worst case I'm out $35 dollars -- but what I learn is worth much more and I'll get back on the horse and try again...
Quoting robots4me
{quote}usually > 20 open positions at any one time
+

Quoting robots4me
{quote}I'm okay with trading without a StopLoss

+


Quoting robots4me
{quote}with my own accounts I have the luxury of waiting-out the large DDs

= Guaranteed Disaster

Just like I imagined you would be, all hot air, arguing with everyone, but cant trade to save your life. I am starting to think your hobby is more social troll than a trader.
Quoting robots4me
{quote} And don't you wish you could see the multi-GMT /H4 indicator we are using...
probably like an xmas tree right - all bling bling
I find it funny that people are still debating/discussing the rules. But hey, at least prop firms like the5ers see other people's point of view and so far taken it to improve the conditions/rules for the better interest of both the trader and the firm.

------------------------------------------------------

I know I realized it late already but removing the trailing drawdown is a BIG YES for me. Looking forward next year to try the evaluation.
Also plan to use a copy trading software and copy my live account trades with different risk % ... and probably add one or two more prop firms.

I wonder why people just don't try. I mean loosing a couple of hundred bucks is okay right? I believe most of the fulltime traders here in the forum have 5 if not 6 digit accounts. Or I may be wrong or have the wrong impression of them.

For me, I wouldn't mind trying to pass challenges/evaluations/trials etc. if it means it will bring a couple of % more profit as long as the risk/drawdown is managed for each account.

-------------------------------------------------------
Quoting robots4me
{quote} Sorry -- you're right. For the 6K account the max exposure is 0.30. {image}
Where did you get the image from? I remember seeing the same details before, but could not see it now in their website. Or maybe I'm just blind and don't know where to look.
adapt or be killed
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