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Quoting ryuryu
{quote} There are no "fake" limit orders.
It is true like you and RickM say - limit walls important but market orders should confirm the wall, at location: the wall. There should be some feedbackin form of market orders in direction opposite to the wall. And frankly speaking FT71 was saying this also - but i did not understand that at that time. Of course interaction at location is not that simple to grasp or imediate, however - this is a kind of a general rule.

It seems obvious etc however - when combine it with also obvious @ryuryu observation regarding the walls - it become more profound. Market orders entering opposite to the wall, could be a kind of trigger.

Pls remember i only have 12 hours of DOM, but what i saw - can not be unseen ))
Quoting ffpriceactio
First day with "DOM surface" from Quantower. 4%. In crazy market conditions. What can i say... it is really an unfair advantage. UNFAIR. It is like footprint on stereoids. BTW I did not know that Optimus uses Quantower. I only realized when i downloaded Quantower from Quantower website.
Hi Ffpriceaction

I know what you mean, the DOM Surface is crazy to trade but your efforts besides from profit will result in red eyes and a blinding headache at nights end. As I trade till 1 to 2am in the morning due to Aussie time zone, I would lay in bed after a session with the DOM surface with my mind racing for another hour till I could finally sleep.

You still need some trading context when you trade volume that way, whether it’s fading large delta, trading with fast breakouts or some other strategy- but you can’t expect to trade consistently just on the size and location of those bloody crazy dots.

Keep up the great work
Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
//but you can’t expect to trade consistently just on the size and location of those bloody crazy dots//

Sure. I will have to figue it out. BTW. for eyes https://justgetflux.com/
Obviously as i see VWAP indeed gives noticeable levels. I would say (1) a natural rotation range. (2) a location for entries
Quoting ffpriceactio
Obviously as i see VWAP indeed gives noticeable levels. I would say (1) a natural rotation range. (2) a location for entries
As for me Volume-Weighted Average Price has 2 words that make no sense for me

1. Weighed. Why? For what? What is the purpose to weigh the volume?
2. Average. Why? What average price say me? if average price for gas in the world is 1$ how it can help me to fuel mu car in Spain?

I think that indi works good only when you are trying to sell mentoring on youtube. Just set your chart background to black and add VWAP colored indicator.

Also I think that there is no edge trying to average something. Average is average. It can tell us nothing more than what was the average.

I think I can create new great indi: average moon cycle weighted on average price of bananas - let's see what will be the winrate (I can "predict" what it will be - 47%)
Observer effect
Quoting ryuryu
{quote} As for me Volume-Weighted Average Price has 2 words that make no sense for me 1. Weighed. Why? For what? What is the purpose to weigh the volume? 2. Average. Why? What average price say me? if average price for gas in the world is 1$ how it can help me to fuel mu car in Spain? I think that indi works good only when you are trying to sell mentoring on youtube. Just set your chart background to black and add VWAP colored indicator. Also I think that there is no edge trying to average something. Average is average. It can tell us nothing more...
I agree basically. However just of curiosity i put daily VWAP on 1 min chart with CME volume of EURUSD (futures) and what i saw was - neverending reaction of 1-min price to this VWAP line. I observed - maybe i am wrong 1) market orders entering at VWAP, as if defending this level 2) limit orders entering at edges of VWAP (envelope lines).

Maybe 1-min price is simple so reactive that gives illusion of interaction with any discretionary level, including VWAP.
[quote=Sallym;14223517]Thank you to ryuryu and RickM for this thread. Fantastic discussions on Order book and volume analysis. I am using ClusterDelta software on Mt4 and trying to get a better picture on how to incorporate their indicators to work with Order book analysis. Is there anybody else using ClusterDelta indicators? I would like to further discuss the charting and setups and how to best use them. I would like to know how many people are on it, and what they find.

Fellow Forum members, I posted this note some time ago. After that, a dear family member was placed on life support and was fighting for her life. She could not overcome this battle and finally lost her life. It has created a big dent in our family, and I am trying to catch a breath and get my footing back, but having some difficulty with the setback.

I am noticing, that there were significant contributions on the topic made by, RickM, ffpriceactio, and ryuryu/ Ryan. I thank you for trying to help me out with your suggestions and thoughts. I will look them over.
Quoting Sallym
Quoting Sallym
Thank you to ryuryu and RickM for this thread. Fantastic discussions on Order book and volume analysis. I am using ClusterDelta software on Mt4 and trying to get a better picture on how to incorporate their indicators to work with Order book analysis. Is there anybody else using ClusterDelta indicators? I would like to further discuss the charting and setups and how to best use them. I would like to know how many people are on it, and what they find. Fellow Forum members, I posted this note some time ago. After that, a dear
...
Cluster is good if no other option. What i suggest, and tried myself following suggestion of RickM, is Quantover platform more flexible than combination of MT4 + Cluster. After all CME data are not that expensive.

IMHO mediocre tool like Cluster Delta will bring mediocre effects and poor understanding od data flow. IMHO Cluster Delta is a waste of time however only due to its inability to provide smooth user experience.
Quoting Sallym
Quoting Sallym
Thank you to ryuryu and RickM for this thread. Fantastic discussions on Order book and volume analysis. I am using ClusterDelta software on Mt4 and trying to get a better picture on how to incorporate their indicators to work with Order book analysis. Is there anybody else using ClusterDelta indicators? I would like to further discuss the charting and setups and how to best use them. I would like to know how many people are on it, and what they find. Fellow Forum members, I posted this note some time ago. After that, a dear
...
Hi Sallym

It must be a tough time for you and your family at present and I wish you all the best over the coming holiday periods.

Ffpricactio offered a great comment on Delta Cluster so please take note from his comment. The cost of data for CME is about $33 a month and Quantower is free with AMP - this is a better option if you want to learn orderflow correctly.

The problem you will face is there is hundreds of ways to trade orderflow, but maybe only one way that suits your personality. So your issue is to work out how you can make sense out of it first before you can profit from it. I recommend trading on Sim / Demo and practice trading drills to find clarity.

1.. Practice trading market order executions where you are looking to hit a market buy or sell every time the books flip for 1 tick. SL will be 1 tick. The purpose is not to make money but to get your timing correct and teaching yourself to be able to trade within a short duration if needed.
2.. Practice trading flipping of the Delta where you are looking for at least 3 bars in one direction then trade the next bar flip at close. Again the aim is not profit but understand how market orders move the market.
3.. Practice trading the limit order trend. That’s entering long when there is more sellers on the books and selling short when there is more buyers on the book. This will teach you a lot about big player activity. Here you will try and hold until the books change sides. Again it’s not about profit, it’s about clarity.
4.. If you choose to trade Crypto, get access to Bybit’s order book or what ryuryu calls a wall and take a trade on the following. When the first two rows on the Buyer side are 4 to 5 times the size of the Selling side, BUY. When the first two rows on the Sellers side are 4 to 5 times the size of the Buying side, SELL. Get out when the books change and examine results.

Do all this on extreme short time frames because you need to be making 50+ trades a practice session.

Then you will understand it’s time to burn most trading books because they will become redundant

Cheers
Practice Practice Practice your way to profitability and DO NOT LISTEN to any fool to tells you there is no value in demo, they just don’t understand.
Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
Quoting RickM
{quote}{quote} The problem you will face is there is hundreds of ways to trade orderflow, but maybe only one way that suits your personality.
RickM what a great summary.

One assumption that must be loudly expressed - what is "confirmation" .

1. Player has got setups, multitimeframe setups etc. All of them create ZONES of INTEREST, no matter where they come from. In these ZONES player looks for entries.

2. Orderflow, as described by RickM, is a trigger.

3. Player does not wait for any kind of pre-trade confirmation at moment of placing order.

4. Player may define post-trade confirmation which appears (OR NOT) only after trade.
Quoting RickM
{quote}{quote} 3.. Practice trading the limit order trend. That’s entering long when there is more sellers on the books and selling short when there is more buyers on the book. This will teach you a lot about big player activity. Here you will try and hold until the books change sides. Again it’s not about profit, it’s about clarity.
Please correct me if i am wrong - "more sellers" means more executed market-orders-sellers. These sellers sell to limit-order-buyers.
Quoting ffpriceactio
{quote} Please correct me if i am wrong - "more sellers" means more executed market-orders-sellers. These sellers sell to limit-order-buyers.
Yes, on Crypto I am watching the Market Sales columns looking for strong imbalance at the top of the book. So more sellers meaning Bearish executed market orders.
Just life Ryuryu always bangs on about, we still need strong above average volume hitting the market before there's an edge.
Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
Quoting ffpriceactio
{quote} I agree basically. However just of curiosity i put daily VWAP on 1 min chart with CME volume of EURUSD (futures) and what i saw was - neverending reaction of 1-min price to this VWAP line. I observed - maybe i am wrong 1) market orders entering at VWAP, as if defending this level 2) limit orders entering at edges of VWAP (envelope lines). Maybe 1-min price is simple so reactive that gives illusion of interaction with any discretionary level, including VWAP.

Let's check. Just my notes, I can be wrong for sure.

Quoting ffpriceactio
However just of curiosity i put daily VWAP on 1 min chart
Here we have 2 non-existent thing: daily TF anf 1 min TF. They exist only in your imagination and literally shows nothing. It is just AVERAGE. Again and again "they" are trying to push you to the wrong way. To use AVERAGE. Do not use average. Average is average. It shows average. It can't tell you anything more. Only what was the average.

Now. You are placing another indicator to AVERAGE AVERAGE? Think about it. You are averaging the average. What you want to get? Some insight? Magic? What? Average of average is very bad quality average. Nothing more here in my opinion.

Quoting ffpriceactio
1) market orders entering at VWAP, as if defending this level 2) limit orders entering at edges of VWAP (envelope lines). Maybe 1-min price is simple so reactive that gives illusion of interaction with any discretionary level, including VWAP.
Didn't get this point at all. Market orders eat limit orders and trigger stops and they eat limit too. That is all. It is not connected with any indicator.

Now about timeframes. Min TF available on crypto is 200ms (because it is the speed on websockets they send data). Please tell me why they allow us to use 1min tf as min tf only?

For example will you be happy if min tf will be not 1 min, but 4 min? Try create chart with 200ms tf and then you will see not averaged picture. If you are using 1min tf you see 4x times averaged nothing.
Observer effect
Quoting ryuryu
{quote} Here we have 2 non-existent thing: daily TF anf 1 min TF. They exist only in your imagination and literally shows nothing.
YES, agreed. The illusion of timeframe. I want to replace it with tick charts or volume charts, but one step at a time.

[quote=ryuryu;14242248]{quote} What you want to get? Some insight? Magic? What?[/kute]

I can't afford to use magic because i risk money. I just tell you what i see with my un-biased eyeballs. For some reason price reacts to VWAP.

[quote=ryuryu;14242248]{quote}Didn't get this point at all.[/kute]

I need to be more precise in future.

[quote=ryuryu;14242248]{quote}If you are using 1min tf you see 4x times averaged nothing [/kute]

True
Quoting ffpriceactio
I want to replace it with tick charts or volume charts, but one step at a time.
Tick chart is average of trades from tons of "brokers". So you want to average average average?

Don't do it. Better dance!
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Observer effect
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Quoting ffpriceactio
{quote} YES, agreed. The illusion of timeframe. I want to replace it with tick charts or volume charts, but one step at a time.
Quoting ryuryu
{quote} What you want to get? Some insight? Magic? What?[/kute] I can't afford to use magic because i risk money. I just tell you what i see with my un-biased eyeballs. For some reason price reacts to VWAP.
Quoting ryuryu
{quote}Didn't get this point at all.[/kute] I need to be more precise in future.
Quoting ryuryu
{quote}If you are using 1min tf you see 4x times averaged nothing
...
Hi ffpriceactio

It’s interesting the discussion about where tick charts or time based charts are better for the trader.
The main obvious difference is time based candlesticks or bars offer better visualisation of wicks which may benefit traders who like to fade.
I personally like to use volume candlesticks or time based candlesticks only because I have been trading them for 20 years and just fits me better.
Many orderflow traders love tick charts so do what fits you best. I have never found a edge either way that makes any real difference for my trading.

Now VWAP - bloody use it.

While I’m not a big users of VWAP myself, almost every other orderflow trader I have traded with loves it more than their partner, along with volume profile. You are correct that price does react with VWAP because everyone (bar me) seems to use it therefore the mass of traders ensure it works.

I trade NYO with a trader called “Dealer” and all I ever here is two things.

Where the gaps are in the SKY chart and where the -2 or +2 VWAP points are.

Use it 100%
Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
ECB and News makers - german friendly and "clearly" un-biased - stretched better than Michael Jackson in his prime years. And he stretched from Black to White and that is something.

On the serious note.

- Market Delta produced quite good material on "periodicities" - tick, delta, volume bars. I will try to get back with some logic conclusions what makes sense.
- DOM surface is better than every visualisation i have ever encountered. Seriously.
- Market Profile - apart from HVN and LVN - produce imbalance levels. It was a suprise to see they actually may be usefull.

Overall, lots of work ahead of me. However, thank you guys for suggestions - THANK YOU RYURYU and RICKM.
One more thing. When i saw brutal stop loss "cascades" 3 times in a row it was a clear indication where the market is going - opposite to cascades. It was visible only with DOM surface. This alone is licence to print money - wish
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