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Murrey Math and Quantum Method

  • #401
  • Mar 11, 2017 7:36am Mar 11, 2017 7:36am
Quoting OAPDave
Murrey says he can predict turning points to within 4 days, so does this give us another way to scalp of Daily charts, perhaps the use of Daily range expectation might help with this {image} {image}
How I break the Murrey 4 day charts down into a 5 min, 1440mins x 4days = 5760 then divide by 5min = 1152 so I use a Murrey 1152 on a 5min chart which with enough data lets me see a bigger picture with a tradable octave, to me there is more than one set of numbers to use Murrey with you just have to use a set that makes sense to you and the risk/reward that you are comfortable with
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  • #402
  • Mar 11, 2017 7:42am Mar 11, 2017 7:42am
Quoting OAPDave
Murrey says he can predict turning points to within 4 days, so does this give us another way to scalp of Daily charts, perhaps the use of Daily range expectation might help with this {image} {image}
I've been super busy refreshing my memory by reading over Gann and Murrey material.

Most of Murrey's material revolves around the D1 candles.

The circles of conflict and creating the Trading Frame are rather simple once read a few times.

Creating a quarter of a years data meaning 13 weeks and then using 64 D1 candles (funny how 13 weeks*5days is 65 not 64, but I get it)

I believe the creation of these circles at the intersections of the even octaves is also very simple in theory.

The main issue might be in MT4 scaling of time with price.

Draw a circle on an MT4 chart as best you can and then alter the price scale ... obviously the circle will become an ellipse and things become distorted.

I'm not sure how far coders have progressed in attempting to create these circles of conflict within the Trading Frame but from a geometrical perspective it is really simple.

The angles given are simple intersections of connecting lines based on octave points at crossings.

The distortion of time to price issue will also greatly affect the angles meaning that the MML speed lines will also distort.

I've read quite a few of your earlier posts and notice that you are a keen student of MML.

Do you know how far coders have been able to progress?

ps. I will also be asking the Op if the use of Gann analysis is permitted in this thread because I want to apply a correct Gann Fan to the trading and drive it up a notch.

Masterrmind...........
Master your Mind then Master your Trades
  • #403
  • Mar 11, 2017 8:09am Mar 11, 2017 8:09am
Quoting Masterrmind
{quote} I've been super busy refreshing my memory by reading over Gann and Murrey material. Most of Murrey's material revolves around the D1 candles. The circles of conflict and creating the Trading Frame are rather simple once read a few times. Creating a quarter of a years data meaning 13 weeks and then using 64 D1 candles (funny how 13 weeks*5days is 65 not 64, but I get it) I believe the creation of these circles at the intersections of the even octaves is also very simple in theory. The main issue might be in MT4 scaling of time with price....
Xard777 seemed to be on a mission to code a realtime version but it all seem to come to a sudden stop when MT4 did an upgrade, you are quite correct the Daily candle and End of Day software was what Murrey advertised, it was only after I found Xard777 realtime version did I go in pursuit of trying to find a way of trading it realtime that's why I have to use numbers and timeframes that make some sense to me, its been a lonely road never found anyone that traded it live that I thought was coming up with anything better than me, hence I always broke his Daily numbers 4,8,16,32,64,128,256 etc down to a more acceptable risk/reward trading style, were price fitted the octave
  • #404
  • Mar 11, 2017 9:09am Mar 11, 2017 9:09am
Quoting Masterrmind
{quote} I've been super busy refreshing my memory by reading over Gann and Murrey material. Most of Murrey's material revolves around the D1 candles. The circles of conflict and creating the Trading Frame are rather simple once read a few times. Creating a quarter of a years data meaning 13 weeks and then using 64 D1 candles (funny how 13 weeks*5days is 65 not 64, but I get it) I believe the creation of these circles at the intersections of the even octaves is also very simple in theory. The main issue might be in MT4 scaling of time with price....
Great minds........

This is a fully developed Murrey chart with the circles of conflict. Murrey used them to help him keep his charts square. Gann material was not meant for digital screens. So an ellipse is a dead giveaway that your chart are not in the correct perspective. The downside to this is that on a fully developed chart you have to put the Gann angles and circles in manually. On each symbol.
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If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #405
  • Mar 11, 2017 11:20am Mar 11, 2017 11:20am
Been busy with school and all so sorry for not keeping up with trades and contributing as much as before. In my spare time however I've been trying to think of strategies for MML. One of these is hedging with options. I know a lot of people stray from options in forex but I know Nadex offers a platform that makes this a little more legitimate. They way options work is that the option you buy has a price at that point based on risk, factoring time of expiration and how close to "In the Money" or "Out of the Money" it is. Since you can't lose more than you put in, this offers an opportunity for hedging.

Meaning, we KNOW for a fact that there is increased volatility at the +2/8 and +1/8 levels, but we don't always know if it will be broken or turn, we just know there is a big move there. What I'm trying to figure out is how to profit from this increased volatility without taking risk.

Let's say there are 2 options available when price is at a +1/8th line. Both are priced at let's say $30 and expire in an hour for $100. Price must move 10 pips to get the full payout. Well since you can close your options before they expire to keep profit, basically price would need to move enough so one of the options exceeds $60, to cover the price of the other.

So price would reverse, option 1 would be worth lets say $70, you lose option 2, so you are left with $10 profit., since the most you can lose is $30 from the first option. Of course this increases with the amount of options you buy, and these numbers will vary.
  • #406
  • Mar 11, 2017 7:49pm Mar 11, 2017 7:49pm
Quoting OAPDave
{quote} Xard777 seemed to be on a mission to code a realtime version but it all seem to come to a sudden stop when MT4 did an upgrade, you are quite correct the Daily candle and End of Day software was what Murrey advertised, it was only after I found Xard777 realtime version did I go in pursuit of trying to find a way of trading it realtime that's why I have to use numbers and timeframes that make some sense to me, its been a lonely road never found anyone that traded it live that I thought was coming up with anything better than me, hence I always...
Thanks for the response.

Although I was aking for coding progress at the end of the day I prefer to take the manual approach so I can see how it all fits together.

The following is a little brain teaser (not really) but lets see who is able to answer it correctly.

=============================================================================================

Who can correctly answer the following questions?

Here is a chart of the EURUSD D1 TF.

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The zone of interest is shown by the rectangle housing 16 completed D1 candles from Jan 3 to Jan 24, 2017.

High price @ 1.07748
Low price @ 1.03402

Questions are as follows:

Assuming the Murrey Math approach.

1. What is the correct time scale?
2. What is the correct price scale?
3. Applying 1 price scale to 1 time scale, what is the number of minutes and number of pips (or points) on EU D1 for a 1:1 price to time scale?
4. What is the correct MML Speed angle from the low left to the high right (candle 1 to 16)?
5*. How would you correctly design a 1x1 price to time Gann box on this D1 chart that shows a correct 45 degree angle?

Enjoy the rest of your weekend,

Masterrmind............
Master your Mind then Master your Trades
  • #407
  • Edited 10:04pm Mar 11, 2017 9:01pm | Edited 10:04pm
Quoting Masterrmind
{quote} Thanks for the response. Although I was aking for coding progress at the end of the day I prefer to take the manual approach so I can see how it all fits together. The following is a little brain teaser (not really) but lets see who is able to answer it correctly. ============================================================================================= Who can correctly answer the following questions? Here is a chart of the EURUSD D1 TF. {image} The zone of interest is shown by the rectangle housing 16 completed D1 candles from Jan 3...
Here is picture of a correctly drawn Gann chart. Do not use the mt4 Gann angle tool if you want geometric precision. They have to be drawn by hand.

Edit, Masterrmind I did have to move the 1/24 date back two days to achieve a square of 16 trading days and the geometric harmony.
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If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #408
  • Mar 12, 2017 12:23am Mar 12, 2017 12:23am
Quoting jmn5611
{quote} Here is picture of a correctly drawn Gann chart. Do not use the mt4 Gann angle tool if you want geometric precision. They have to be drawn by hand. Edit, Masterrmind I did have to move the 1/24 date back two days to achieve a square of 16 trading days and the geometric harmony. {image}
The MT4 Gann tool is highly sensitive to scaling and so it changes as soon as the price axis (or any axis) is altered.

It can be drawn by hand as you say using the trendline angle tool or by using the Fib tool but you will need to convert the angles by re-calculating all the 9 Gann angles.

Since both sides of the Gann Fan are symmetrical about the 1x1 line you will only need to make 1 fan and it can be used for L-H or H-L PA.

Any reason your chart is showing only 3 Gann angles per fan instead of the standard 9 (less clutter perhaps?).

Masterrmind............
Master your Mind then Master your Trades
  • #409
  • Mar 12, 2017 12:38am Mar 12, 2017 12:38am
Quoting Masterrmind
{quote} The MT4 Gann tool is highly sensitive to scaling and so it changes as soon as the price axis (or any axis) is altered. It can be drawn by hand as you say using the trendline angle tool or by using the Fib tool but you will need to convert the angles by re-calculating all the 9 Gann angles. Since both sides of the Gann Fan are symmetrical about the 1x1 line you will only need to make 1 fan and it can be used for L-H or H-L PA. Any reason your chart is showing only 3 Gann angles per fan instead of the standard 9 (less clutter perhaps?). Masterrmind...............
Yes, less clutter, those are the most important angles to watch. Do you see how price reacts to them?
Another reason is that it is less laborious.
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #410
  • Mar 12, 2017 3:25am Mar 12, 2017 3:25am
Quoting jmn5611
{quote} Yes, less clutter, those are the most important angles to watch. Do you see how price reacts to them? Another reason is that it is less laborious.
I'm not sure what advantage if any the circles of conflict would have so I might leave them alone and in any case I have noticed an enormous amount of inaccuracies in even how Murrey applied them. Only need to look at his work in some form of detail and you'll notice it ... some circles flatter than others, poor alignment and overlap too and other matters I need not address here.

Another aspect might be the poor drawing quality of computers back in the 90's quite abit different from what we have nowadays.

In any case I've setup multiple Trade Frames (16, 32 and 64) with Circles of Conflict in MT5 so I'll look at progressing that in the background.
If it appears to be of no added benefit I'll archive it.

My feeling though is that they are probably not needed for an experienced trader who can read PA at a high level.

As for the MML Speed lines and MML momentum lines I'll dig a bit deeper into them although getting the angle correct on the chart is key.

A trader with a good eye can gauge the speed and momentum and in any case there are informative indicators around that can calculate them.

At the end of the day keeping things relatively simple is important provided some decent trades are being made and the account grows positively.

Good trading,

Masterrmind............
Master your Mind then Master your Trades
  • #411
  • Mar 12, 2017 3:32am Mar 12, 2017 3:32am
Quoting Masterrmind
{quote} I'm not sure what advantage if any the circles of conflict would have so I might leave them alone and in any case I have noticed an enormous amount of inaccuracies in even how Murrey applied them. Only need to look at his work in some form of detail and you'll notice it ... some circles flatter than others, poor alignment and overlap too and other matters I need not address here. Another aspect might be the poor drawing quality of computers back in the 90's quite abit different from what we have nowadays. In any case I've setup multiple...
You are clearly smarter than the average bear.

Fact is, Murrey fans and Gann fans do not get along at all. The main reason is that Murrey took a very small segment of Gann and built a whole system from it.
But I have seen based on your query that you are competent in Gann theory. You chose the highest high and lowest low in a specific time period. That is how Gann squared his charts. The circles of conflict are just markers to be aware of. Ultimately PA rules.
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #412
  • Mar 12, 2017 4:22am Mar 12, 2017 4:22am
Quoting jmn5611
{quote} You are clearly smarter than the average bear. Fact is, Murrey fans and Gann fans do not get along at all. The main reason is that Murrey took a very small segment of Gann and built a whole system from it. But I have seen based on your query that you are competent in Gann theory. You chose the highest high and lowest low in a specific time period. That is how Gann squared his charts. The circles of conflict are just markers to be aware of. Ultimately PA rules.
I won't tell you which side of the fence I stand but it does start with G.... (oops!).

Nevertheless, only an ignorant trader would side with one over the other and not at least study some of the others material.

The thread Op in this case is only applying a basic skeleton of the Murrey method and what is it really 12 lines separated by an octave gap determined in part by a period and simply looking to go short off the highs and long off the lows with a Quantum cycle thrown in for good measure.

Perhaps I'll limit the technical questions and posts on Gann and Murrey and simply trade those MML lines (or whatever you like to call them).

It really is looking for a good entry to short once price has been charging up high or looking to go long when price has been charging down low.

What I might do next however, is to define some of these MML lines based on the chart structure that I see.

ps. And the thread OP is doing just fine up to this point.

Bring on Monday!

Masterrmind............
Master your Mind then Master your Trades
  • #413
  • Mar 12, 2017 4:53am Mar 12, 2017 4:53am
Mastermind, jmn5611, great work guys, I have Murrey's manuals and workbooks, not an easy read for me, you guys would have no problem though, Murrey sets all his Octaves from October 7th, the speed angles are

11 degrees slowest reverse angle
22 degrees normal speed
33 degrees faster reversals
45 degrees Best support/Resistance Normal for Indexes, faster reversals
56 degrees faster reversal
67 degrees fast reversals
78 degrees faster reverse angle
he really only uses 22, 45 and 78
  • #414
  • Mar 12, 2017 6:43am Mar 12, 2017 6:43am
Quoting OAPDave
Mastermind, jmn5611, great work guys, I have Murrey's manuals and workbooks, not an easy read for me, you guys would have no problem though, Murrey sets all his Octaves from October 7th, the speed angles are 11 degrees slowest reverse angle 22 degrees normal speed 33 degrees faster reversals 45 degrees Best support/Resistance Normal for Indexes, faster reversals 56 degrees faster reversal 67 degrees fast reversals 78 degrees faster reverse angle he really only uses 22, 45 and 78
Question:

Does he describe how to determine the speed angle on a currency pair?

For a given currency pair we need the appropriate price to time scale which I think is determined once the MML lines are placed correctly on both the time and price axis ... then its clear to see 1 price unit to 1 time unit.

Given this information then we can draw up the Trading Frame (using choice of 4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512, etc etc).
The constructed Trading Frame will then have an MML axis (-2/8 to +2/8 etc) along the price axis and an MML axis (0/8, 1/8, ... 0/7, 0/8 etc) along the time axis.

Then draw the vertical and horizontal MMLs (which will clearly intersect at 90 deg)

The small squares that get created will lead directly to all correct speed angles based on rise over run (tangent).

Therefore it is crucial to understand where to construct the Trading Frame with respect to the time axis.
This is because the MM method does not care about historical information but is more focused on level that price enters the Trading frame and then segments of a 16 trading day PA.

The Trading Frame should be set off the 1st frost every month ??? [Really ... please explain this concept]
I'm again assuming that the start date would be a progression from the Oct 7 start date.

If a D1 chart was being traded would the first Trading Frame vertical line start exactly at Oct 7 or the next trading day once Oct 7 has closed.

Question:

What date does the first frost occur on a given month?
Does a trader need to keep updated about this 'frost' and then quickly update the Trading frame?

Note 1: Once the x and y axis are plotted with the right MMLs then it would be very easy to for example when price rose 7/8ths in 5/8ths in time.
Note 2: Key is to know where price enters the Trading Frame when it gets reset presumably on the 1st frost of each month (hmmm).

ps. How cool would it be to have an indicator that you can join a line from H-L or L-h anywhere on the chart and it will give you the angle it makes with the horizontal namely the speed angle.

Masterrmind............
Master your Mind then Master your Trades
  • #415
  • Mar 12, 2017 6:55am Mar 12, 2017 6:55am
What would really be useful would be if someone could post a screenshot of say the EURUSD D1 Chart showing the correct axis overlay of the MMLs for price and time.

Perhaps use 16 or 32 at the most to make the construction a little easier and so it all fits on the screen so that the scaling does not screw with it.

ps. Actually probably just the y axis (price) MMLs (+2/8 down to -2/8) is required.

Masterrmind............
Master your Mind then Master your Trades
  • #416
  • Mar 12, 2017 7:45am Mar 12, 2017 7:45am
4H Chart : EURUSD price is between 3/8 and 4/8 Minor octave .

I drew manually the baby octave with fibo retracement (1/8).

I drew also 45 and conflict circle (manually). (my own interpretation)



Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: EURUSDH4murray.png Size: 66 KB
KISS&V :Keep it simple safe & visual
  • #417
  • Mar 12, 2017 7:48am Mar 12, 2017 7:48am
Quoting Masterrmind
{quote} Question: Does he describe how to determine the speed angle on a currency pair? For a given currency pair we need the appropriate price to time scale which I think is determined once the MML lines are placed correctly on both the time and price axis ... then its clear to see 1 price unit to 1 time unit. Given this information then we can draw up the Trading Frame (using choice of 4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512, etc etc). The constructed Trading Frame will then have an MML axis (-2/8 to +2/8 etc) along the price axis and an MML axis (0/8, 1/8,...
You only re-set your Octave start time once a year on the 7th October,
Attached File(s)
File Type: pdf MurreyMath Rules.pdf   119 KB | 2,402 downloads
  • #418
  • Mar 12, 2017 8:19am Mar 12, 2017 8:19am
A rough approach to a basic Trading Frame on MT4 on the GM D1 Stock using P=32.

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: Screenshot1.png Size: 28 KB


ps. the Trading Frame might need to have different MML applied since most of the PA is running through the top half of the Trading Frame.

pps. Yes exactly! And then if price touches the +2/8 line then the next Trading Frame will shift up 4 octaves from its current position ... correct?

ppps. Notice the pivot central of the Trading Frame ... now look how PA reacted to it! ... I've seen this on multiple charts today ... interesting.

Masterrmind............
Master your Mind then Master your Trades
  • #419
  • Mar 12, 2017 8:35am Mar 12, 2017 8:35am
Quoting OAPDave
{quote} You only re-set your Octave start time once a year on the 7th October, {image}
Thanks but I have that one and a much larger version.

This following screenshot shows the relative speed angles.

Attached Image


The lines all originate from the bottom left hand corner of the Trading Frame and project up and to the right.

What happens if PA entered your Trading Frame halfway up the speed angles would be inconclusive (or incorrect) in my view.

I still think that its relative meaning take a section of the PA and determine how many price units the instrument rose per units of time.

Masterrmind............
Master your Mind then Master your Trades
  • #420
  • Mar 12, 2017 8:39am Mar 12, 2017 8:39am
Quoting Masterrmind
A rough approach to a basic Trading Frame on MT4 on the GM D1 Stock using P=32. {image} ps. the Trading Frame might need to have different MML applied since most of the PA is running through the top half of the Trading Frame. pps. Yes exactly! And then if price touches the +2/8 line then the next Trading Frame will shift up 4 octaves from its current position ... correct? ppps. Notice the pivot central of the Trading Frame ... now look how PA reacted to it! ... I've seen this on multiple charts today ... interesting. Masterrmind............ ...
Very impressive my friend, have you got or know of a simple indicator that places a vertical line every 4 days apart from a given date ( Oct 7th )
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