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  • #821
  • Jul 29, 2016 4:59pm Jul 29, 2016 4:59pm
When we say which time frame of traders are in control, the short time frame and the other time frame participant in control; in the future market there are obvious four types of traders, but when it comes in our case (forex) are "other time frame participant" as one group or there are classes in our analysis.
  • #822
  • Jul 29, 2016 7:41pm Jul 29, 2016 7:41pm
Quoting JPworks
When we say which time frame of traders are in control, the short time frame and the other time frame participant in control; in the future market there are obvious four types of traders, but when it comes in our case (forex) are "other time frame participant" as one group or there are classes in our analysis.
For our intent & purposes we have Day timeframe (intraday) traders who will end the day flat, and "Other tf participants" are the traders (usually public traders) willing to hold their positions overnight.

So you have intraday tf (daily) traders and then you have every "other" tf participant willing to hold their trades overnight.

"A word on the 'big boys'. Back in the 1980's and earlier the trade (locals, commercials) had more money than the public. That has changed. The public now has much more money and can drive markets like never before. It used to be that the commercials were 5 or ten percent of the trade. But they could move the market because of their ability to place a big trade at a market tipping point and drive price. Today, the electronic market commercials make up maybe 40 percent of the market. It seems that these 'commercials' are the hedge funds and no longer a monolith like the commercials in the pit. The 'big boys' of today appear to me to be behaving largely like the public and are not the fearsome monolith of before".- Jones
Markets are not efficient, rather they are effective - Jones
  • #823
  • Jul 30, 2016 10:31pm Jul 30, 2016 10:31pm
Quoting JPworks
When we say which time frame of traders are in control, the short time frame and the other time frame participant in control; in the future market there are obvious four types of traders, but when it comes in our case (forex) are "other time frame participant" as one group or there are classes in our analysis.
Two Primary Trader Time Frames
http://www.forexfactory.com/showthre...05#post8667905
Markets are not efficient, rather they are effective - Jones
  • #824
  • Jul 31, 2016 6:27am Jul 31, 2016 6:27am
Mzvega,
I am glad I ask and I have got more than what I ask for. It was indeed a very important question. The whole scenario of the market trading world indicators with so many sophisticated software were to show us what the the short and the long term traders are doing in general. I have a 1 minutes chart with indicators to show me what the 1m 15m 1h and 4hrs are doing. If you step up and change to 5m the next relational time frames will come in place. Now I am laughing at myself how naive I was including the so many traders in disillusion of knowing the market and its behavior. And this is shocking. Way to go my friend. Thank you. JP
  • #825
  • Aug 2, 2016 10:03am Aug 2, 2016 10:03am
Would someone have a look at this calculation of 8 Day Rotation Index and tell me if it is correct. The pdf that explains its meaning and derivation is a bit confusing for me (mainly the "Q" part).
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  • #826
  • Aug 2, 2016 3:15pm Aug 2, 2016 3:15pm
Quoting sinqua
Would someone have a look at this calculation of 8 Day Rotation Index and tell me if it is correct. The pdf that explains its meaning and derivation is a bit confusing for me (mainly the "Q" part). {image}
The "Q's" are derived from the data in relation to the 8 day overlay
The "T's" are calculated correctly.......
Markets are not efficient, rather they are effective - Jones
  • #827
  • Aug 2, 2016 4:46pm Aug 2, 2016 4:46pm
Quoting mzvega
{quote} The "Q's" are derived from the data in relation to the 8 day overlay The "T's" are calculated correctly.......
Ah Thank you Mzvega
  • #828
  • Edited 5:12pm Aug 5, 2016 2:17pm | Edited 5:12pm
My first attempt for GBPJPY direction and activity including RF. Your comments are appreciated.
http://share.pho.to/AFGja
  • #829
  • Aug 7, 2016 11:17am Aug 7, 2016 11:17am
Quoting JPworks
My first attempt for GBPJPY direction and activity including RF. Your comments are appreciated. http://share.pho.to/AFGja
You did a good job duplicating one of my spreadsheets. However, I think you missed the whole point of flow analysis. It's pretty pointless to spend all that time trying to calculate/duplicate, without knowing "what" data needs to be calculated, and "why". And most importantly what the data actually tells you and means. Everyone is more concerned and fixated with trying to figure out and make sense the "end result", rather than the actual process that gets you to the end result.

I do see you are missing a few rather important references, and you have completely missed the "attempted direction" formula. You've spent a lot of time & effort duplicating my spreadsheet, But what have you actually learned? The end results mean nothing unless you know what each reference means individually, what it tells you about the market. And then armed with that information/knowledge how to monitor the data for changes.
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Markets are not efficient, rather they are effective - Jones
  • #830
  • Aug 7, 2016 6:16pm Aug 7, 2016 6:16pm
Quoting mzvega
{quote} You did a good job duplicating one of my spreadsheets. However, I think you missed the whole point of flow analysis. It's pretty pointless to spend all that time trying to calculate/duplicate, without knowing "what" data needs to be calculated, and "why". And most importantly what the data actually tells you and means. Everyone is more concerned and fixated with trying to figure out and make sense the "end result", rather than the actual process that gets you to the end result. I do see you are missing a few rather important references,...
Mzvega,
I am not simply trying to replicate what you have done but learning part by part what I have learned from the forum and the books. This is a fraction of what it has to be done and is incomplete picture. You ask me the why, well, The overlay composite computation of 1, 3, 5, 10,20 are reflected in the direction, activity and net and are clues of where the market had been in the past and the flow to the future indicated in the numbers and with its + and -. I used wrong formula for RF (I used an if formula but with >= which had to be > then "value", if not "value", if it is equal "value" which would have been neutral). The RF shows the rotation from the upper and lower bounds in the bracketing phase.

I know there are 40 reference points from the mt4 downloads and I study each one of them the "what" and the "why" during the computation. I am not simply replicating, if at all I did it is because I am convinced it is the best one and the best way. I can not replicate at all because you involved so many software at the same time (libre base, calc, sql, python and may be others) to clear data and write with new data). It took me many libre calc sheets just to do one segment for one pair. Whole segment for one pair takes many sheets, I can imagine what it will be for many pairs. As a database developer I have some technical thoughts which would have simplified our database without using many spread sheets. If you want my thoughts I can send or post. Thank you JP
  • #831
  • Aug 8, 2016 3:00am Aug 8, 2016 3:00am
Quoting JPworks
{quote} Mzvega, I am not simply trying to replicate what you have done but learning part by part what I have learned from the forum and the books. This is a fraction of what it has to be done and is incomplete picture. You ask me the why, well, The overlay composite computation of 1, 3, 5, 10,20 are reflected in the direction, activity and net and are clues of where the market had been in the past and the flow to the future indicated in the numbers and with its + and -. I used wrong formula for RF (I used an if formula but with >= which had to be...
You completely missed the point of my post. You still have no clue what data needs calculating, why and what for. You don’t even know that there are two different references, "Rotation Factor" and "Rotation Index". You have no idea which reference is used when,, why it is used and the data used to calculate it. You don’t know what the rotation factor is, how it is calculated, what it measures and what analysis uses it in it's calculation. You have no clue that the rotation factor has nothing to do with the rotation index or how it is calculated. You spent time creating & calculating numerous spreadsheets with data that has nothing to do with "Net flow analysis". All that effort was pointless as you still have no idea what data should be used when and why. I appreciate your technical thoughts, however if you knew what data is actually needed to be calculated, why, what for and what it means, you could have avoided creating unnecessary, numerous, pointless spreadsheets. How's that for simplicity.

Quoting JPworks
The overlay composite computation of 1, 3, 5, 10,20 are reflected in the direction, activity and net and are clues of where the market had been in the past and the flow to the future indicated in the numbers and with its + and -.
You definitely got that wrong. I'd like to know exactly where you read and got that info from.

I'm just going round in circles trying to explain this to you, as you insist on putting the cart before the horse.

Since your only concern is with "calculations", you can get step by step instructions by reading the "Background" and "References" links in the Cisco web cache. You can get the info directly from the source, there is nothing more about the calculations that I can assist you with.

There are those who don't know, and there are those that don't know, what they don’t know………..
Markets are not efficient, rather they are effective - Jones
  • #832
  • Aug 8, 2016 3:36am Aug 8, 2016 3:36am
For those who wish to jump ahead and focus on the "calculations", rather than learning and understanding what the data means, how it is used for analysis in the process in which you organize the data for final "calculations" are free to do so

just as I did, you can read the same info in Cisco's web cache and follow the step by step instructions. You will find all the info you need in the background & Reference pages, and by following the links. I didn't need anyone's help, I just read the material and followed instructions. The material itself is far better than I can try to explain. Rather than get the info second hand from me, it's better they go directly to the source https://web.archive.org/web/20151107...o-futures.com/

If you have followed the thread or rather my conversations with Chris, that there are some "analysis" & references that I haven't included in my analysis. It takes time to research the data understand it, learn to organize it. i.e......... I need to go through each of the references, understand it and decide which references I want to include in my avg tables. i.e......... tracking an avg on the close produces no usable info for analysis if used in avg. tables.

However, the close is still a valuable ref. when you understand & have knowledge that there are two different types of closing activity, how to identify them, and how each one describes & tells you something about the condition of the market.

Learning how to calculate if the close is -1 or +1 will not give you the understanding it takes to identify the different types of closing activity, and how to use the info for analysis. There are no red light green light signals. This thread is about market understanding. Nor is it trading the "net values". Many times you have to examine and look at each of the individual references for insight.

A negative net value does not necessarily mean to "sell", a -1 only means that almost all your references are equally +/- hardly a logical reason to sell. You use market understanding and your knowledge of each of the refs. to determine which one's are +/- and which ones have the greater implications that affect market activity.

Spending time learning "calculations" is pointless unless you know "what" data needs to be calculated, "how" & "why" the data is calculated, "what" the data actually means, and most importantly, "how" to use it in analysis.

It is just as pointless for me to continue trying to explain "calculations", to anyone who doesn't know what data should be used and why. One should be able read and understand what the data means with out the use of the spreadsheet. The spreadsheet should be use as a convenience to easily track info for multiples trading pairs. You bring & put your already acquired knowledge of the references into the spreadsheet, you can't acquire that knowledge & understanding from the calculation/formulas in the spreadsheet.

I have spreadsheets I'd like to update & other analysis I want to perform, and other spreadsheets to create. Id like to add to my EOD analysis, in order for me to do so, I have to go through the process of going through data in VBPT, the references, in order to produce a spreadsheet of calculations for analysis. I need to know what data I need to measure, how to measure it and what the data means, in order to create a new spreadsheet for additional analysis. You cant understand or begin to explain the final calculations , with out knowledge of the process it takes to arrive at the calculations.

So while I get back to the info & data in VBPT needed to create additional spreadsheets for analysis, I will not be answering anymore questions about "final calculations". Others are making this way more complicated & confusing than it has to be. So, I will not be answering any questions unless the questions are directly related to the info and data found in VBPT. If you have trouble reading the info VBPT, I can assist.
Markets are not efficient, rather they are effective - Jones
  • #833
  • Edited 4:25pm Aug 8, 2016 5:10am | Edited 4:25pm
Mzvega,
I can understand why this theory has not much following because it demands effort, understanding and patience. Indeed technically it is not that much difficult, the difficulties are the whats and whys. I was confused with your comments and this lead me to blame myself. Then, when you say "You still have no clue what data needs calculating, why and what for. You don't even know that there are two different references, "Rotation Factor" and "Rotation Index," then I can see I could easily be misunderstood by you and lift off the blame of me.

I did Nothing fancy or new thing, I am just trying to emulate what you have posted as shown in this image. If I miss newly added reference points that has to be included it is another thing. I might have missed some in my if calculations (between choices of > or =, > then value else value else 0 or neutral), and I am ready to be corrected. The image speaks volumes to me than simply reading the books, that is how I understand the books in the end, I don't know about others. Any way I am here to learn and I am giving a very bit of my effort. We might have differences in "pedagogy," and that is ok. Thank you for your help. JP
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  • #834
  • Aug 8, 2016 7:49am Aug 8, 2016 7:49am
Quoting JPworks
Mzvega, I can understand why this theory has not much following because it demands effort, understanding and patience. Indeed technically it is not that much difficult, the difficulties are the whats and whys. I was confused with your comments and this lead me to blame myself. Then, when you say "You still have no clue what data needs calculating, why and what for... The image speaks volumes to me than simply reading the books, that is how I understand the books in the end, I don't know about others. Any way I am here to learn and I am giving a...
I think you are attempting to do the same thing I was/am trying to do. Which is "study while observing the data". But even I can see Mzvega's dilemma now, take for instance the spreadsheet you attached which you are trying to replicate.

What does the information there tell you? If she asked me, I would say nothing. That spread sheet is just one of many in a process. You actually do not need to replicate the above spread sheet. So why bother?

Look at the post where djonesfan replied my programming questions...he was right. After more thought and analysis I saw that excel macro's are currently enough for me.

Everything mzvega has shown is for HER EOD analysis. The only thing to be learned from her screenshot posts that I can see is how she chooses to observe flow.

I was interested in getting my own spreadsheets and database up and running to quicken the process, mainly because I had no idea how to put the idea's in this thread and the books to practice or any expertise in massive excel, programming or database manipulations. Now that I know 'how' I will do the exact data aggregation. I have decided to halt the 'calculation' part till MOM & VBPT is fully understood.

Seeing that you have experience with database management and the likes, I will suggest you do the same as it is more beneficial to you to go down that path.
  • #835
  • Aug 9, 2016 8:01am Aug 9, 2016 8:01am
Sinqua,
I know what I posted is nothing unless accompanying by other references. I find it easy to understand the books through the numbers, I read the materials again and again, unless you back it up by hands on training it is frustrating and you can easily give up. I know I gave hard time to Mzvega who is patient to me. You see, we are not in researching business here, we are not even in analysis business here in this forum I guess. We are trying to discover what is already researched and analysed for so many years, 37 I guess. There are and will always of course be new findings along the way as Mzvega peruses. Making research and discovering are two different things. Any way I appreciate your advice. JP
  • #836
  • Aug 9, 2016 9:09am Aug 9, 2016 9:09am
Quoting JPworks
Sinqua, I know what I posted is nothing unless accompanying by other references. I find it easy to understand the books through the numbers, I read the materials again and again, unless you back it up by hands on training it is frustrating and you can easily give up. I know I gave hard time to Mzvega who is patient to me. You see, we are not in researching business here, we are not even in analysis business here in this forum I guess. We are trying to discover what is already researched and analysed for so many years, 37 I guess. There are and will...
You read the materials again & again? How many times did you actually read MOM & VBPT? Again & again, did you read each book twice?
Markets are not efficient, rather they are effective - Jones
  • #837
  • Edited 11:16am Aug 9, 2016 10:43am | Edited 11:16am
Quoting mzvega
{quote} You read the materials again & again? How many times did you actually read MOM & VBPT? Again & again, did you read each book twice?
Mzvega,
I did indeed even more, you may ask why I don't get it then. That is why I ask. I have no question in your understanding and your eloquence of expression. But since you are approaching different kind of people, of all sorts of back ground and age it could be frustrating to a person like me to make them research what is discovered. Believe me, I have been around, trading is an art not mathematics. Otherwise the so many mathematicians, statisticians and scientists would have become very rich and billionaires which they wish very much to be, even earnestly, believe me, but they are poor than ever not because of their academic shortcomings but because they miss the art of the game part. I am here to get the game, otherwise I could have gone somewhere else researching. Tell me, tell me why you told me, then ask me what you told me. I am not challenging your method of teaching, I am just bring some points so that I may save you time, and save those you invest and spend so much time with them and they disappear with frustration with out getting something. They spend your time, they spend their time and then they become wrong messengers of negativity to such wonderful art. Does I make sense? I do no, if not please ignore this message. I will stick around. Thank you. JP
  • #838
  • Aug 9, 2016 12:17pm Aug 9, 2016 12:17pm
Quoting JPworks
{quote} Mzvega, I did indeed even more, you may ask why I don't get it then. That is why I ask. I have no question in your understanding and your eloquence of expression. But since you are approaching different kind of people, of all sorts of back ground and age it could be frustrating to a person like me to make them research what is discovered. Believe me, I have been around, trading is an art not mathematics. Otherwise the so many mathematicians, statisticians and scientists would have become very rich and billionaires which they wish very much...
So you know the difference between rotation factor and the rotation index?
you know what data is used to create the rotation factor reference. And what that info is used for?

You know what the trade facilitation factor is and what it is used for?
Do you know which references are used to create the TFF reference?

Do you know the purpose of net flow analysis, and how it's used?

Do you know how many and which references are used in the attempted direction reference in the net flow analysis?
Do you what VTY reference is , what data is used to calculate it. What and where that reference is used for?

Do you know how to use, read and understand each one of the references for analysis all by themselves,
Outside of the spreadsheet?
Markets are not efficient, rather they are effective - Jones
  • #839
  • Aug 10, 2016 8:15am Aug 10, 2016 8:15am
Hi JP,

ok looks like you tried to build your first sheet. Not bad. But there are some errors (Mzvega mentioned them already).
Please answer the questions in the screenshot. What are you trying to do there? What do you want to calculate? You can show that by using the screenshot and discribe what you have done so far. That way would be easier to understand your difficulties. And please try to answer questions in short and objectively sentences. Thank you.

First understand the reference points (know what they mean and where thier are if on meta profile for ex poc).
After that, programm your sheets. The other way can lead to missunderstanding/looking for pure buy/sell signals. There are no pure electronic sell/buy signals. When Jones says "go long on bracket upper limit break" it seems to be a pure electronic buy signal, but its not that case.

greetings
C
  • #840
  • Aug 12, 2016 1:35pm Aug 12, 2016 1:35pm
Didn't spend much time in front of the computer this week
eurgbp
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gbpusd
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Markets are not efficient, rather they are effective - Jones
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