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Trading without SL: your profound experience

  • #41
  • Oct 10, 2015 12:18am Oct 10, 2015 12:18am
Quoting Myrmica
{quote} How long have been trading that strategy which looks good at first sight although having an inbuilt SL is actually like having a real SL.
Yes my sl is quite different. It's not regular sl. Since I am a programmer I built in sl in my program.. I can't sit in front of computer whole day.. So designed that way..
  • #42
  • Oct 10, 2015 1:51am Oct 10, 2015 1:51am
Quoting gravitist
My profound experience is this: trading without a stop-loss = your account is blown away quickly trading with a stop-loss = your stops are always hit, so your account is blown away slowly Either way, you lose money because the fx market is rigged for you to lose. Big banks control forex and they didn't become big by giving money away.
the same as my experiences, sometimes the line got up or down just to touch my sl(s) and then continue going to the direction i have expected before. and if i did not using the sl, and my balance enough for the opposite direction, sometimes it will get profit,and the other time closed by broker .
That's what i think the question in this thread.
Then, Gravitist, if you have balance much more bigger than 'the big banks' then you can control the the forex .
Last time, i read MT4 news, the Danske bank: EUR/JPY entry 134.93 sl 135.75 target 133.40. I follow it, and it wiped out my balance, now EUR/JPY 136.60. it means there is a bigger bank or many smaller banks than the Danske bank, and they have different interest or needs.
Back to the sl, i think, if we have qualified information about the needs of most of the people (including banks) in forex market, we will know where the trend will going on, and for that we will not need SL at all.
Just my 2 cents...
  • #43
  • Oct 10, 2015 10:15am Oct 10, 2015 10:15am
Quoting Bilstein
Yes. Trading the account as opposed to trading prices and doing so without stop losses is very possible. There's no real secret to it other than trading small (relative to the account) and being well-capitalized. There's also no real "advantage" to doing it, it's more work than setting stop losses for individual trades and moving on but if you're looking for an inherent advantage over any other trading method, there really isn't one. People who say "one wrong trade and the account is gone" are the types of people who were holding huge 400:1 leveraged...
Hi Bilstein,

would you say then that trading with low leverage is the secret behind this method? Do you never have a SL then and just average out losing positions?
I still find it hard to win with this method even when having low leverage. It just may take longer until your account has gone once you are in trading in the wrong direction. Or do you hedge then instead?
  • #44
  • Oct 10, 2015 2:25pm Oct 10, 2015 2:25pm
Quoting Myrmica
{quote} Hi Bilstein, would you say then that trading with low leverage is the secret behind this method? Do you never have a SL then and just average out losing positions? I still find it hard to win with this method even when having low leverage. It just may take longer until your account has gone once you are in trading in the wrong direction. Or do you hedge then instead?
Yes, well, low-leverage is the key to surviving the method. But I don't usually trade one pair at a time. I also don't do the martingale thing. The reason for the decision to trade without a stop loss is simply to not get taken out meaninglessly in daily price fluctuations. As long as you're well-capitalized and using low leverage, you're fine. Even in the wake of the SNB fiasco, I was still fine - even came out of it on top, surprisingly.

After that comes an inventory management system. To be honest, this is ridiculously discretionary; it's really up to you. The way I manage my inventory isn't really something you can "teach". Not because it's magic or anything, but because it's suited to my personality. Each of us are different in our goals, expectations of profit, patience, risk tolerance, and perception of the market so, if you choose to trade this way, how you manage it is totally at your discretion.

I don't hedge - at least not on purpose. I started trading the 28 major pairs before gradually increasing to 35 so there's going to be natural positive and negative correlations with all the pairs. While I don't actively seek or study correlations, I enter all my trades at the same time so, naturally, they help balance the book.

But if you find yourself only trading one pair at a time, there's no point in trading without a stop loss. If I'm going to day trade a pair - usually a pair that doesn't pay rollover on either side - I'll use a stop loss.
  • #45
  • Oct 10, 2015 5:47pm Oct 10, 2015 5:47pm
Broken Arrow Strategy:

Example:
- $100,000 USD account
- Trade with $10,000-$30,000 of it in n' out.
- When the position is in a loss, but most likely holding a range (that is not not even closeat all to a break away wild move like 08-24-15 in USDJPY and EURUSD, determine a key support/ resistance and average in with your additional capital.

That is, the majority of your capital is applied in defense of crap positions with the goal of a break even or profitable exit. Most times you are trading only part of your capital.
  • #46
  • Oct 11, 2015 1:14pm Oct 11, 2015 1:14pm
R19

that`s why I don't trade just 1 position, but spread my money across at least 10 uncorrelated instruments.
that`s how I can still trade the 100k in your example.

as Bilstein stated before: no use to trade without a SL if you are trading only 1 position.

if you are using a SL in your trading: add up all your losses and see if it would be worthwhile to do the money management differently.
  • #47
  • Oct 12, 2015 3:18pm Oct 12, 2015 3:18pm
Quoting Bilstein
{quote} Yes, well, low-leverage is the key to surviving the method. But I don't usually trade one pair at a time. I also don't do the martingale thing. The reason for the decision to trade without a stop loss is simply to not get taken out meaninglessly in daily price fluctuations. As long as you're well-capitalized and using low leverage, you're fine. Even in the wake of the SNB fiasco, I was still fine - even came out of it on top, surprisingly. After that comes an inventory management system. To be honest, this is ridiculously discretionary;...
Now I am bit confused. If you dont use a SL but also done average down your trades how can you be successful? That would mean as soon as a trade goes against you you let it open until it comes back. Which would mean that your entries are extremely good.
The reason why you think that it does not make sense to NOT use a SL when you only trade one pair is also something I dont understand. What is the difference if I trade one pair or 20? Maybe you could clarify these things a bit for me if you want.
  • #48
  • Oct 12, 2015 5:27pm Oct 12, 2015 5:27pm
Quoting Myrmica
{quote} Now I am bit confused. If you dont use a SL but also done average down your trades how can you be successful? That would mean as soon as a trade goes against you you let it open until it comes back. Which would mean that your entries are extremely good. The reason why you think that it does not make sense to NOT use a SL when you only trade one pair is also something I dont understand. What is the difference if I trade one pair or 20? Maybe you could clarify these things a bit for me if you want.
I don't leave bad trades open indefinitely and my entries are the furthest thing from "spectacular". When I open a basket, I usually do so at the start of a new daily candle. So, I'll start on Monday afternoon (EST) find the pairs that pay rollover and trade in the direction that pays rollover without setting a stop loss. I'll usually give losers a chance to come back - anywhere from 3 days to 3 months (in extreme cases) - but I don't leave them open indefinitely. I don't freak out if a trade goes against me; as long as interest rates stay relatively unchanged, I'm capitalized well enough to hold that position for as long as I like and get paid rollover. At the same time, I do day trade pairs that don't pay rollover on either side. This strategy, contrary to my inventory management strategy, requires me to be out of that pair (or pairs) by the end of the trading day so, I use a stop loss for trading pairs I know I definitely want to be out of by the close of business.

Like I said, we all have different expectations of profit and how long it should take for us to make those profits. I'm like an 80% long-term/20% short-term kinda person. I think the problem people have when I try to explain how I trade is that they think I don't lose money - of course I do. I have bad days, weeks, months, quarters all the time. That's why I said there's no inherent "edge" in trading without a stop loss. When you set a stop loss, the market is going to dictate when you're out. When you don't, you control when you're out. That's it, that's the only difference.

I didn't stop by to advocate trading without a stop loss, only to mention that doing so successfully is definitely possible. If the idea of trading without a stop loss scares or confuses you, you probably shouldn't do it.
  • #49
  • Oct 12, 2015 5:39pm Oct 12, 2015 5:39pm
Quoting Bilstein
{quote} I don't leave bad trades open indefinitely and my entries are the furthest thing from "spectacular". When I open a basket, I usually do so at the start of a new daily candle. So, I'll start on Monday afternoon (EST) find the pairs that pay rollover and trade in the direction that pays rollover without setting a stop loss. I'll usually give losers a chance to come back - anywhere from 3 days to 3 months (in extreme cases) - but I don't leave them open indefinitely. I don't freak out if a trade goes against me; as long as interest rates stay...
My feelings towards trading without SL are mixed. On the one side it does not confuse me because it is the first that I am winning money by averaging down loosing positions. But at the same time I am freaked out by the big drawdown this can cause so I am not sure if this approach will only delay my margin call.
Thanks for your explanations. Do you actually have fixed TP or do you let your winners run or set the TP around S&R or with ATR or or...
  • #50
  • Oct 12, 2015 5:55pm Oct 12, 2015 5:55pm
Quoting Myrmica
{quote} My feelings towards trading without SL are mixed. On the one side it does not confuse me because it is the first that I am winning money by averaging down loosing positions. But at the same time I am freaked out by the big drawdown this can cause so I am not sure if this approach will only delay my margin call. Thanks for your explanations. Do you actually have fixed TP or do you let your winners run or set the TP around S&R or with ATR or or...
I can understand that. No, I don't use fixed take profit orders, it's all time-based. Trades I plan on closing usually have an "expiration date". I've changed how I handle winning trades and losing trades several times over the years. I really try to adapt that part of my management strategy to market conditions. For example, I'll take winners quickly in a ranging market and let losers run longer in a ranging market and I'll let winners run longer in a trending market and cycle losers faster in a trending market.
  • #51
  • Oct 12, 2015 6:58pm Oct 12, 2015 6:58pm
Quoting Bilstein
{quote} I can understand that. No, I don't use fixed take profit orders, it's all time-based. Trades I plan on closing usually have an "expiration date". I've changed how I handle winning trades and losing trades several times over the years. I really try to adapt that part of my management strategy to market conditions. For example, I'll take winners quickly in a ranging market and let losers run longer in a ranging market and I'll let winners run longer in a trending market and cycle losers faster in a trending market.
Thanks for coming by here and sharing Bilstein...good stuff...
"Holy Grail" exists - accepting where is the first step.
  • #52
  • Oct 12, 2015 7:16pm Oct 12, 2015 7:16pm
Suicide, thats the word for trading without SL. At least, if you are going to average down or martingale, put a % stop loss of your total equity so you dont lose it all. By the way, I like the video, makes me be even more careful with my trades.
  • #53
  • Oct 12, 2015 8:00pm Oct 12, 2015 8:00pm
Well, I promise when I blow my account, I'll start a thread.
  • #54
  • Oct 15, 2015 1:44pm Oct 15, 2015 1:44pm
Trading without SL - Works with 5% monthly return

http://www.forexfactory.com/showthre...84#post8538084

Have a look to calculations.. , Thanks
Prachait Saxena
  • #55
  • Nov 14, 2015 10:57am Nov 14, 2015 10:57am
Trading without a stoploss is fine. that just means you don't rely on the broker to end a trade a for you.

The real question is what is your money management plan? Do you have a plan to exit unprofitable trades? if you simply mean that you never plan to take a loss then you will surely blow your account one day.
  • #56
  • Nov 14, 2015 11:07am Nov 14, 2015 11:07am
Quoting beastwork
Trading without a stoploss is fine. that just means you don't rely on the broker to end a trade a for you. The real question is what is your money management plan? Do you have a plan to exit unprofitable trades? if you simply mean that you never plan to take a loss then you will surely blow your account one day.
"Holy Grail" exists - accepting where is the first step.
  • #57
  • Nov 20, 2015 9:01am Nov 20, 2015 9:01am
Recently trade without stop loss.
I took a long sell position and short buy. During the technical analysis found clear patterns of Elliott, so i decided in this case don't use SL. Pretty well. But this is the exception rather than the rule. Even if stop loss not establish exist a boundary that you cannot cross, so as not to blow the account. The result is somehow it exist. It's option which must be able to use can make a profit and a loss. For example, in Long Term trade stop loss can disturb. Then you need to clearly monitor the size of your depo to achieve profit and not get to stopout.
  • #58
  • Nov 20, 2015 3:24pm Nov 20, 2015 3:24pm
I have tried it before with a martingale system, it don't work, when it goes against you,
you simply must have a level when you say, this is enough,
if not a stoploss, then a mental stop, and then you might as well have a sl because it's the same thing,
if not you will get a margin call sooner than later, I guarantie it.
there are better ways to trade than martingale, it will only bring you pain
Bulls are stupid Animals!especially when Im short!
  • #59
  • Nov 20, 2015 6:40pm Nov 20, 2015 6:40pm
Quoting GrandTrade
Recently trade without stop loss. I took a long sell position and short buy. During the technical analysis found clear patterns of Elliott, so i decided in this case don't use SL. Pretty well. But this is the exception rather than the rule. Even if stop loss not establish exist a boundary that you cannot cross, so as not to blow the account. The result is somehow it exist. It's option which must be able to use can make a profit and a loss. For example, in Long Term trade stop loss can disturb. Then you need to clearly monitor the size of your depo...
I still don't understand why you didn't use a stop. Why not put on a very wide stop just in case you have a power failure, or your internet goes out, or some crazy news comes out that could wipe out your account? I just don't understand the philosophy of not using a stop, even for catastrophic circumstances.
  • #60
  • Nov 21, 2015 1:11am Nov 21, 2015 1:11am
I many times trade without using SL .It is not the compulsory part of trading.I usually monitor my trades, keep eye on market with open positions. if I can not watch due to any reason then I set SL in trading. I think without using SL we can manage trades easily.Should have a plan in mind to close trades at appropriate point to avoid high loss.
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