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A jump to the beginning - chaos and market forces

  • #141
  • Sep 27, 2015 1:22pm Sep 27, 2015 1:22pm
Hello all

First i would just like to say what a great thread this is, its good to see traders thinking more deeply about the market and how it works.

Have to say that i disagree with crucial points idea that time has no bearing on market movements.

The reason i say this is because we all know the reason the markets move is due to people placing trades, but ask yourself what causes people to actually place trades in the first place? The belief that there is an opportunity to make money.

Now their belief that they can make money is governed by what?

Whatever method/system they use to enter the market.

For their system or method to indicate to them that their is an opportunity to make money what needs to happen?

Time needs to pass.

Think about this, a person who trades the trend will not place a trade unless they have identified that trend. For a trend to form time needs to pass, this is the same with virtually every strategy. if you trade candlestick patterns like pin bars or engulfing bars then for them to form time needs to pass weather it be 1 second 1hour or 1 month your not going to place a trade until you see that pattern and that pattern needs to from. the buying or selling which creates the pattern in the first place requires people placing trades which takes time. it takes a minimum of two trades to make a bearish pin bar, a buy trade and a sell trade, for these two decisions to be made time needs to pass no matter how small.

The market itself is not governed by time in the form of time frames that we can change on the charts, but the people participating in the market are themselves governed by time as for them to make a trading decision time needs to pass.
  • #142
  • Sep 27, 2015 1:40pm Sep 27, 2015 1:40pm
Quoting mvp77
{quote} It's nonsense like every wannabe intelligent post in this thread. Like a NFP request of 10000 person's what they expect. And....... this theory fall badly ! Try it !
i have and it works very well
  • #143
  • Sep 27, 2015 1:42pm Sep 27, 2015 1:42pm
Quoting diceman555
{quote} i have and it works very well
no way

  • #144
  • Sep 27, 2015 1:48pm Sep 27, 2015 1:48pm
I find if fascinating that most of what we're talking about was talked about in antiquity. (Yet why is that we tend to only focus on fractions of the framework? )

The Trivium: the elementary three.
[1] General Grammar, [2] Formal Logic, [3] Classical Rhetoric

[1] GRAMMAR (Answers the question of the Who, What, Where, and the When of a subject.)
[2] LOGIC (Answers the Why of a subject.)
[3] RHETORIC (Provides the How of a subject.)

The Quadrivium: Pertains to Matter & Quantity - the advanced four.
[4] Arithmetic, [5] Geometry, [6] Music, and [7] Astronomy

[4] ARITHMETIC Number in itself, which is a pure abstraction; that is, outside of space and time.
[5] GEOMETRY Number in space.
[6] MUSIC OR HARMONIC THEORY Number in time.
[7] ASTRONOMY Number in space and time.
a. Number
b. Geometry
c. Harmonics
d. Cosmology

Then taken to the next dimension:
Attached Image
  • #145
  • Sep 27, 2015 3:48pm Sep 27, 2015 3:48pm
Quoting JR97
I find if fascinating that most of what we're talking about was talked about in antiquity. (Yet why is that we tend to only focus on fractions of the framework? ) The Trivium: the elementary three. [1] General Grammar, [2] Formal Logic, [3] Classical Rhetoric [1] GRAMMAR (Answers the question of the Who, What, Where, and the When of a subject.) [2] LOGIC (Answers the Why of a subject.) [3] RHETORIC (Provides the How of a subject.) The Quadrivium: Pertains to Matter & Quantity - the advanced four. [4] Arithmetic, [5] Geometry, [6] Music, and [7]...

Correct, new science is discovering what the antiques already knew since 4.000 years ago; until two decades ago the scientific establishment classified all this stuff as esoteric or worst; quantum physics is proving the opposite and is providing a logic answer to the mount of unresolved questions of the traditional scientific thinking.
We have been told a lot of wrong things and even stupidities and all this is so deep inside on most of the people that they cannot see.
The establishment of power has blindfolded people for centuries because they need to make people behave like sheeps to preserve and increase their power, and this fraud is going on today too: the result is that the world is now a big flock in which the masses are bleating all day long and working like slaves to get a little group of power people richer even more.
Human beeings have made an incredible scientific and technological progress but the way most of the people think is still at the Medium Eve state; like monkeys flying on jumbos jet.....isn't it unreal?
The most part of the big problems of our world come from this fraud.
  • #146
  • Sep 27, 2015 7:19pm Sep 27, 2015 7:19pm
Quoting CrucialPoint
So this thread is more of like an end game approach. Some will try the end game approach without solid foundations and they too will fail at it. That's why when people don't understand what I'm gibbering about and have lots of question, I tend to tune out because we are not on the same page. Peace, CrucialPoint P.S. Guys, Please read my bio I will only post what I want to share and nothing more. I'm not here to mentor or train people... If you can't keep up, I not here to help to. I post...
Thanks for sharing your ideas, pls continue to do as u wish, nevertheless I would still like to thank you for helping me to think in ways that will probably never come about if I didn't read your posts. I will try to keep up. Thanks to the others for bringing thought-provoking ideas & discussions too.

Thanks & Best Regards,
LearnAlways
I only know I know nothing
  • #147
  • Sep 28, 2015 12:03pm Sep 28, 2015 12:03pm
Quoting CrucialPoint
Natural Laws vs Behavioral Laws {quote} When you study psychology you will realize and become aware of all the biases we have. Once you notice this, you can work on removing these biases and see the world in a different light. You can't tackle Natural Laws without first conquering Behavioral Laws. It is like a missing gap in knowledge and it will only set you back. Like trying to write a book and your grammar is all over the place. So this thread is more of like an end game approach. Some will try the end game approach without solid foundations...
Yes, CP, fully understand your points. Everything in this universe is connected either directly or indirectly. anything material share the same fundamental particles; on atomic level everything is ONE and ruled by the same laws. My point was that financial markets before everything are the byproduct of behavioral laws (behavioral science, behavioral economics, psychology, cognitive and neural science etc.) and then economics and then everything else. My point was, as you have stated, without any understanding of these fields it would be difficult to tackle some specific questions of trading, even though understanding the fundamental universal laws can offer hindsight.
As Above, So Below
  • #148
  • Sep 28, 2015 3:56pm Sep 28, 2015 3:56pm
Quoting CrucialPoint
If no-one enter/exit the market in 1 sec, will the market move?... No. If no-one enter/exit the market in 1 min, will the market move?... No. If no-one enter/exit the market in 15 min, will the market move?... No. If no-one enter/exit the market in 30 min, will the market move?... No. If no-one enter/exit the market in 1hr, will the market move?... No. If no-one enter/exit the market in 4hr, will the market move?... No. If no-one enter/exit the market in 6hr, will the market move?... No. If no-one enter/exit the market in 12hr, will the market move?......
This is a wrong assumption. For the sake of simplicity, imagine the market is created by 10 market makers and another 10 risk takers. There are many events happening during the day and these market makers will be quoting different bid/offer on their machines based on the newest available data / events. These 10 market makers and 10 other risk takers might take 0 trades during the day and yet price might move, because market makers constantly keep adjusting bid/offer based on latest available information. You just take this logic and translate it into the real world, where algos / eFX platforms do the job of adjusting bid/offer continuosly. The perfect examples are spikes post news / eco releases. How much flow do you think is actually traded on the first spike (which can be massive)? It's actually very little as the liquidity dries up and price moves around very easily. My point is that usually it works the way you described, but there are many days when prices are moving around with very little flow behind.
  • #149
  • Sep 28, 2015 4:33pm Sep 28, 2015 4:33pm
Quoting katrooo
{quote} This is a wrong assumption. For the sake of simplicity, imagine the market is created by 10 market makers and another 10 risk takers. There are many events happening during the day and these market makers will be quoting different bid/offer on their machines based on the newest available data / events. These 10 market makers and 10 other risk takers might take 0 trades during the day and yet price might move, because market makers constantly keep adjusting bid/offer based on latest available information. You just take this logic and translate...
This is a good point: what moves price is first of all the open interest. Price moves towards the levels at which there are big pending orders that are drying up liquidity.
  • #150
  • Sep 29, 2015 12:12am Sep 29, 2015 12:12am
I personally see price locations and many gaps .the problem being continous price chart plotted with time are misleading..if your not privvy to the books then determin ing those changing levels takes a little more work.
  • #151
  • Sep 29, 2015 7:18am Sep 29, 2015 7:18am
People on FF love to talk about price action as though it had some mystical quality.

Price is ultimately just a lagging indicator of collective human behaviour, perception and reaction.
  • #152
  • Sep 30, 2015 4:48am Sep 30, 2015 4:48am
A lot of people are biased and this thread is becoming useless.
"If no-one enter/exit the market.." does this mean that pending order are not included?
It's like the picture CP posted, first he saw an old lady, then a young and old lady, then lines.
What is the market structure? It's foundation is based on up and down moves, nothing more and time is not part of the equation.
Is market fractal? Yes.
Go and find what market does when moves up and down.
Open a naked chart and see, first you will see area of support and resistance, then unicorns, then... only up and down moves.
  • #153
  • Sep 30, 2015 8:03am Sep 30, 2015 8:03am
Quoting alexx90
A lot of people are biased and this thread is becoming useless. "If no-one enter/exit the market.." does this mean that pending order are not included? It's like the picture CP posted, first he saw an old lady, then a young and old lady, then lines. What is the market structure? It's foundation is based on up and down moves, nothing more and time is not part of the equation. Is market fractal? Yes. Go and find what market does when moves up and down. Open a naked chart and see, first you will see area of support and resistance, then unicorns, then......
Everyone has the right to express their opinions.
Even if it is biased, contradicting, opposite, radical, etc... we need all the ideas we can get, even crazy ones.
I don't mind people telling me I'm wrong (and I welcome it) as long as they don't resort to personal remarks and take it to personal levels.
If you think an idea is wrong, express it and explain your point of view... it shouldn't resort to childish behaviors.



What we don't need are personal comments, name calling, sarcastic gentle stabs, such as the posts below:

Quoting mvp77
{quote} It's nonsense like every wannabe intelligent post in this thread.
Quoting forex_fairy
Op must have lost money trading PPl tend to get philosophical when they lose.
Quoting metta87
I have a feeling the holy grail gonna come outta this thread.

If this was my thread, I'll have zero tolerance on such comments and simply ban these guys from further interrupting the thread.
Its mind boggling to even ponder, why these guys linger on a thread they dislike.

I think this thread is a healthy thread without the above comments.
People respecting different points of views and respecting other posters and expressing their own ideas.


Peace,
CrucialPoint
  • #154
  • Sep 30, 2015 9:05am Sep 30, 2015 9:05am
+1
My Threads: Trading is as simple as 1-2-3, Highest Open / Lowest Open Trade
  • #155
  • Sep 30, 2015 10:07am Sep 30, 2015 10:07am
Quoting CrucialPoint
{quote} Everyone has the right to express their opinions. Even if it is biased, contradicting, opposite, radical, etc... we need all the ideas we can get, even crazy ones. I don't mind people telling me I'm wrong (and I welcome it) as long as they don't resort to personal remarks and take it to personal levels. If you think an idea is wrong, express it and explain your point of view... it shouldn't resort to childish behaviors. What we don't need are personal comments, name calling, sarcastic gentle stabs, such as the posts below: {quote} {quote}...
Over the years I've been involved in a few private groups exploring esoteric and non-traditional approaches to the markets. The groups usually started from like minds that met in a thread similar to this one. All went private due to the downward spiral threads similar to this one typically take. Which is sad because the collaborative efforts in one of the groups led to some serious mind blowing methods, approaches, and mt4 tools. It's easy to see how throughout history the wisdom and knowledge was done through mystery schools and hidden from the masses in allegory, myth, symbols, etc. Pearls before swine and what not.
  • #156
  • Sep 30, 2015 10:40am Sep 30, 2015 10:40am
Good call

Quoting JR97
{quote} Over the years I've been involved in a few private groups exploring esoteric and non-traditional approaches to the markets. The groups usually started from like minds that met in a thread similar to this one. All went private due to the downward spiral threads similar to this one typically take. Which is sad because the collaborative efforts in one of the groups led to some serious mind blowing methods, approaches, and mt4 tools. It's easy to see how throughout history the wisdom and knowledge was done through mystery schools and hidden...
  • #157
  • Sep 30, 2015 10:55am Sep 30, 2015 10:55am
Hello everybody!

A while back I tried to trade Gann and esoteric methods but I failed because of my approach. Back than I simply placed a couple of circles and lines on the chart and got mad when price did not react or reverse at my reference points. Right now I trade price action but the esoteric part of analysis always attracted me. However I am sure that even if I would have the best books on these methods given to me I would not understand them properly because I lack certain pieces of knowledge; I lack the foundation that would help me to properly understand the tools. Right now I would probably try to use esoteric analysis as most people use candlestick patterns; I would just see a hammer without understanding the supply / demand report at that point...in other words it would be a superficial approach.

Could you please tell me what knowledge do I have to gather to truly understand esoteric analysis?? I assume mathematics (especially geometry) are a must, CrucialPoint talked about physics so I assume that is also a needed subject, JR97 mentioned astronomy....

What is your opinion?? What are the main subjects I must know before I can truly understand this type of analysis.

Kind regards,
Denis.
  • #158
  • Sep 30, 2015 10:59am Sep 30, 2015 10:59am
Quoting MisterC
Hello everybody! A while back I tried to trade Gann and esoteric methods but I failed because of my approach. Back than I simply placed a couple of circles and lines on the chart and got mad when price did not react or reverse at my reference points. Right now I trade price action but the esoteric part of analysis always attracted me. However I am sure that even if I would have the best books on these methods given to me I would not understand them properly because I lack certain pieces of knowledge; I lack a foundation that would help me to proper...
You don't need any special knowledge. Just a method of risk management that suits your style.
  • #159
  • Sep 30, 2015 11:27am Sep 30, 2015 11:27am
Quoting MisterC
Hello everybody! A while back I tried to trade Gann and esoteric methods but I failed because of my approach. Back than I simply placed a couple of circles and lines on the chart and got mad when price did not react or reverse at my reference points. Right now I trade price action but the esoteric part of analysis always attracted me. However I am sure that even if I would have the best books on these methods given to me I would not understand them properly because I lack certain pieces of knowledge; I lack the foundation that would help me to properly...
I would say cycles, math related to waves, time, geometry, music, astronomy and math
  • #160
  • Sep 30, 2015 12:44pm Sep 30, 2015 12:44pm
Quoting CrucialPoint
{quote} Everyone has the right to express their opinions. Even if it is biased, contradicting, opposite, radical, etc... we need all the ideas we can get, even crazy ones. I don't mind people telling me I'm wrong (and I welcome it) as long as they don't resort to personal remarks and take it to personal levels. If you think an idea is wrong, express it and explain your point of view... it shouldn't resort to childish behaviors. What we don't need are personal comments, name calling, sarcastic gentle stabs, such as the posts below: {quote} {quote}...
I love your posts. Seems you write the whole day to be the smart guy.
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