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Brokers and Banks as an Institutional Trader 4 replies

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Is anyone here an institutional trader?

Quoting JacobFordFX
{quote} For me, it was worth it absolutely. Trading is a love/hate relationship. You have to expect to fail in order to get better. There are no scholarships in the School of Trading, EVERYBODY has to pay tuition. If you can accept the fact that it is hard and frustrating at times and understand its a learning process and stop thinking you'll make a million dollars on a 10K account in 2 years then you at least will have the right frame of mind. You used the term effort, I never thought of it as that. I knew it was a journey with ups and downs and...
One of the best comments I have read on this forum for many years, it should be stuck to the home page for all to read.
This is Forex.
  • Post #422
  • Quote
  • Edited Jun 28, 2014 7:01am Jun 27, 2014 2:49pm | Edited Jun 28, 2014 7:01am
Quoting Kuat
tbh, which trader would let on his edge? still nice try
He's already revealed his trading edge: educated horizontal lines drawing (Post15), risk management(Post379, Post403), intuition (Post359). That last element is something he won't be able to teach even if he wanted to because you just can't teach someone your own experience. You must gain it yourself.
Quoting FX Compass
{quote} One of the best comments I have read on this forum for many years, it should be stuck to the home page for all to read. This is Forex.
Thanks

Trading is a very humbling undertaking, retail or institutional, you better love it beyond just the money making aspect.

have a nice weekend all
Quoting JacobFordFX
{quote} For me, it was worth it absolutely. Trading is a love/hate relationship. You have to expect to fail in order to get better. There are no scholarships in the School of Trading, EVERYBODY has to pay tuition. If you can accept the fact that it is hard and frustrating at times and understand its a learning process and stop thinking you'll make a million dollars on a 10K account in 2 years then you at least will have the right frame of mind. You used the term effort, I never thought of it as that. I knew it was a journey with ups and downs and...
JF, is trading your primary source of income now? it seems not so for skenobi
Quoting MetroFX
{quote} You are not getting what i'm asking.
Actually I DID understand what you were asking.

You asked, "how do YOU confirm that a SL should be done". By "you", you were addressing ME (Correct me if I'm wrong). And I gave you my answer from the perspective of a Far East operator working for a reasonably large regional banking group with OK-ish ratings.

Quoting MetroFX
{quote} Around here, if someone put a SL with us or a bank you need that USD 1 Million at least is made (executed traded) at that price for it to be executed, let's say that only 500K are done at that price you didn't get your stop executed (and if you had a 10 Mill stop only with 1 mill you got executed). But for TP, some guys ask for half the amount of the order to be executed for the order to be considered as executed, let's say TP of 20 mill you needed at least 10m to be executed at that price for your order to be confirmed....
Exactly. AROUND THERE! Obviously there will be regional differences between how things are done THERE (in Chile where you say you are in your profile) and how things are done HERE (South East Asia and the Far East). All our orders are OTC. Up to 50 mio thereabouts and if the level being observed was really close, Reuters 3000 price history was a good enough arbiter to decide if an order was deemed to have been filled. Throughout my career, I don't remember it ever being decided by the amount actually done in the market. i.e. AROUND HERE (or at least in the Banks I worked for), stops are not executed based on "what amount should be traded there so that the stop is executed" (your words).

And as I mentioned here previously, the order book runner will not want to look like a fvcking douchebag for stiffing an important counterparty (in this case, ME!).

Quoting MetroFX
not sure if you had somekind of rules like us around here (maybe all of this rules are because we had much lower liquidity than most currencies)
What can I say? My original answer stands, I'm afraid. Sorry to disappoint.
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
  • Post #426
  • Quote
  • Edited 11:31am Jun 29, 2014 11:08am | Edited 11:31am
Quoting Pollux
{quote} He's already revealed his trading edge: educated horizontal lines drawing (Post15), risk management(Post379, Post403), intuition (Post359). That last element is something he won't be able to teach even if he wanted to because you just...

Wow! I don't think I've ever been linked and cited before! Thanks!
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
Quoting JacobFordFX
{quote} Thanks Trading is a very humbling undertaking, retail or institutional, you better love it beyond just the money making aspect. have a nice weekend all
I read your comments to cryptex. I don't disagree with any of it.

Maybe I was just expressing my avuncular instinct of trying to guide a wayward nephew away from the wicked path of institutional trading! LOL

All good!
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
Quoting dns_di
{quote} Whats your edge?
Quoting Kuat
tbh, which trader would let on his edge? still nice try
Well, I'm not NOT (note the double negative) revealing my edge because of the usual rookie-ish notion of "if he revealed his edge, then his edge will be copied by all and then nullified by the market later" nonsense.

I'm not revealing it simply because I've got nothing to prove.
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
Quoting skenobi
{quote} I read your comments to cryptex. I don't disagree with any of it. Maybe I was just expressing my avuncular instinct of trying to guide a wayward nephew away from the wicked path of institutional trading! LOL All good!
haha cool .... all good
Quoting Ponzi Jr
Is anyone on this forum an institutional trader? If so, what are the main differences between retail trading and institutional trading? Do you have certain tools or information that gives you the upper hand? If not, what is it that means that you guys always have the edge? Also, would you recommend it as a career choice? I've loved learning to trade as a hobbyist, but I can't imagine choosing it as a career. Thanks for any insight

Read everything you can about and from Jesse Livermore and manage your money better than he did.

Don't even think about day trading, bypass that noise and focus on big moves/big trends. If you pay attention to stock markets, currencies and commodities there will be a couple a year max.

You'll be able to live a good life and not deal with the day to day emotions and hell of day trading, which is just way too much to go through imo.

The real money is in the big moves.

Don't let the hype and excitement of day trading lure you in. It's not worth it man. Stay away from it and wait for those big trends to start/ trend reversals. Start off small and if you're right (making money) add to those positions and sit tight. Had I done this from the start and avoided day trading I'd be a millionaire many times over.
Good luck to you.
Skenobi and Jacob

tell us about tools you used:
- at small to medium institutionals what trading platform they mostly use?
- what kind of auxiliary instruments/sources are necessicuty apart from terminals?

- do you trade via Bloomberg trading suite as well? if yes, what are mininum deposit and what leverages are possible with it?
always draw trendlines
Quoting Ck87
{quote} Read everything you can about and from Jesse Livermore and manage your money better than he did. Don't even think about day trading, bypass that noise and focus on big moves/big trends. If you pay attention to stock markets, currencies and commodities there will be a couple a year max. You'll be able to live a good life and not deal with the day to day emotions and hell of day trading, which is just way too much to go through imo. The real money is in the big moves. Don't let the hype and excitement of day trading lure you in. It's not worth...
Why do you think that you'll be able to spot big trends on intra-year chart if you can't spot them on intra-day? Trends are on all time frames, so really there is no much difference between a 1-hour chart or a day chart. Those big trends what you call them may come once a year and what will you do if you miss them? Therefore it's not true that a day trading is full of noise. Noise is what you make of it...learn the language, eliminate the noise

http://2ndskiesforex.com/forex-tradi...ts-myth-noise/
Quoting merquise
Those big trends what you call them may come once a year and what will you do if you miss them?
+1
Quoting merquise
{quote} Why do you think that you'll be able to spot big trends on intra-year chart if you can't spot them on intra-day? Trends are on all time frames, so really there is no much difference between a 1-hour chart or a day chart. Those big trends what you call them may come once a year and what will you do if you miss them? Therefore it's not true that a day trading is full of noise. Noise is what you make of it...learn the language, eliminate the noise http://2ndskiesforex.com/forex-tradi...ts-myth-noise/...

I speak from my own experience. I've watched the markets move for 3 years+ now. I've missed out on countless huge trends that I saw coming because I was too busy trying to catch small fluctuations day trading. It's worthless. I doubt any of you here are doing good with it, otherwise you surely wouldn't be here and you'd be profiting massive amounts of money on a day to day basis. It's just reality man.

Day trading every day is too tough on the emotions.

The one scenario where I think it's good to day trade is when you have a clear long term trend and it's moving in one direction daily… then it's a pretty good time to day trade.

IE. US stock market going up.
Then you need to work on your emotions...what is stopping you from looking at the day chart at the start of the day looking for those big moves and if nothing found switch to intra-day and trade away.. Off course your call but I believe that there are opportunities on every time frame. You just need to recognize them.
Quoting merquise
Then you need to work on your emotions...what is stopping you from looking at the day chart at the start of the day looking for those big moves and if nothing found switch to intra-day and trade away.. Off course your call but I believe that there are opportunities on every time frame. You just need to recognize them.
When I say big moves I'm talking about 30-100% moves in stocks, stock market indices, commodities, maybe 10%+ moves in currencies. You're not getting that intraday in FX
Can you give a chart example? Btw. I think that institutional's here are trading on lower time frames...i think I read it here by some of them can't remember who said it...
Quoting merquise
Can you give a chart example? Btw. I think that institutional's here are trading on lower time frames...i think I read it here by some of them can't remember who said it...

Here's an example, when the Ukraine crisis broke out and russian assets were being dumped by the billions I was already anticipating the USD/RUB to make a top sometime soon and the Russin market to bottom.

I had the levels marked and my target was at the top at around 36.50 USD/RUB, it broke through there very briefly then couldn't hang around and dropped 8-10% from those levels past few months. Me, being the wanna be super hero day trader…. I didn't even profit on the move. The russian stock market has gone up 30%+ from the lows as well in just a few months. I was personally telling everyone close to me that this was coming and I was going to make a fortune off of Russia.

When you spend so much times trying to catch the smaller intraday fluctuations, you end up missing the big moves

Some people may have their good methods and manage their emotions/money well enough to make money trading intraday a lot, my hat goes off to them. But for me and most people, we'd be a lot better off sticking to the bigger moves. I know from experience I anticipate them well, now I just need to stop day trading and start participating in the trends. But that's just me,maybe you're different.

Good luck to you.
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Well that's the point..we are all different.. I stopped a long time ago to impose my way of thinking to the others...what is impossible for some is possible for the other... The problem with trading is not that you are right and I am wrong it's you are right in your own way and I am in my way..
@Ck87, dude its a forex forum, you suggest people read Jessie Livermoore methods, they just do not work on forex mate. Forex is a very choppy market, more often than not, and often times it is not reasonable to hold position for too long, you better in and out, of course you decide, how long you in, few minutes or few hours, but there is seldom a point on the forex market, to hold few days, let alone few month. You know, that shit can come off as fast as it climed (or vice versa), and what you gonna do, when you waited for the whole f year for the move to come, anticipated it correctly, say bought, waited another 3 months, and in the last few hours that shit dropped like it never been on breathtaking highs before, frustrating all I can say, I am not even sure what is more frustrating, trying to catch big or small move.

Looking for an opportunity to enter once or twice a year is bigger stress I guess, you can develop mental disorders from realizing that all that year you did nothing but stared at f market in anticipation of a big move, which can be frustrating of its own, imagine, like merquise said, having waited a year for that to happen, you missed the entry point, because you were busy doing something else (took shower as an example). I know, JL said big moves does not end in a day, yes its true, but they do not wait for those you are late either, and when market starts to move for real, its, more often than not, a very fast and unexpected movement, caused by consequences of events few people could have thought of, let alone anticipate. Market reaches breathtaking highs (or lows) in a matter of minutes, yes minutes, and then resides on new levels, figuring out what to do next.

There are no easy money on the market, neither timeframes, period. What I think though, you trade either long run or short run depending on your financial position. If you trade billions, you can not trade tick charts, trying to catch few pips, so you like it or not you have to trade bigger timeframes, you have no choice here. On the other hand we, retail traders, have luxury to in and out of the market whenever we want, so there is a huge reason trading intraday. You learn to trade, well, trading everyday , you educate yourself daily, which is a good thing.

I know one thing for a fact, JL made his first money trading everyday on a very levered account, only then he had to become long term trader, not because he liked it, because he had to!

And here is the math for you mate:

When JL traded intraday, he made 10,000 USD out of 3,5 USD, thats 2,857,100% increase of initial deposit.

When he started to trade long term with 10,000 USD he was worth at his peak, I know of, something around 3,000,000 USD, thats 300,000% increase of initial deposit.

Some people claim he was worth 100 mil USD at his peak, well, I have not found evidence of that, and he never mentioned it himself, however he had a chance to do so in his last book. But even if he did 100 mil USD at his peak it is still less percentage wise than increase he made trading intraday.

my 2 cents
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