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  • #70,381
  • May 3, 2014 1:15pm May 3, 2014 1:15pm
Quoting TooSlow
{quote} "MMs like to do their work near the whole and half numbers".... I have read this...repeatedly... but is that 0 - 10?, 0 - 20?, 0 - 25? any more and we are closer to 50!! Meaning no disrespect, but shouldn't one be able to define these areas with concrete numbers? Otherwise, it seems nebulous, as in unclear. One could retort, that I need to study more but what is the "what" to study? Thank you, Cigarguy. Cheers!
TooSlow,

That is why TAH and others have dedicated so much of their time and effort to make the indicators and charts a "no brainer" to see these levels. This is not subjective at all. Whole numbers are whole numbers, etc., down to quarter numbers including pivot points.
Keep It Simple
  • #70,382
  • May 3, 2014 1:19pm May 3, 2014 1:19pm
Quoting Dyekid217
{quote} Do more reading and you will understand what the whole numbers are, half numbers, quarter numbers, etc. I'll give you a hint..the whole numbers are horizontal and blue. No disrespect but it shows a traders work ethic when they come to a thread and ask the most basic questions. There is no cutting corners in this business!
Dyekid217, IMHO you don't understand my question. Thanks anyway.
My Threads: Trading is as simple as 1-2-3, Highest Open / Lowest Open Trade
  • #70,383
  • May 3, 2014 1:23pm May 3, 2014 1:23pm
Quoting cigarguy
{quote} TooSlow, That is why TAH and others have dedicated so much of their time and effort to make the indicators and charts a "no brainer" to see these levels. This is not subjective at all. Whole numbers are whole numbers, etc., down to quarter numbers including pivot points.
Cigarguy, I am referring to the areas around the whole numbers, not the numbers themselves. Let me try again. How big is the area around the whole numbers that MMs like to do their work? Thank you.

Dyekid217, just because it takes some people longer than others to understand and get the right answer, it doesn't mean they are any less of a person. If you finish a test in an hour and it takes me three but we both get 100%, who is smarter? I am TooSlow.
My Threads: Trading is as simple as 1-2-3, Highest Open / Lowest Open Trade
  • #70,384
  • Edited 5:27pm May 3, 2014 1:27pm | Edited 5:27pm
Quoting santos23
I think PVSRA is an art more than anything, you have to flow with and considering a few factors and in the final doing what you see and feel is right, and even then its not guaranteed, BUT..I havent had as much success with any other kind of trading, i dont feel like I have to watch a trade second by second, I know when i see what looks right I can place my trades and wait for it to do what it has to.
Sonicers,

I love this post by Santos23. PVSRA is an art form. It is quantitative and it is qualitative. You look at some specifics (like loeil examines individual candles at key movements at lows or highs), and you look at the overall flow of price action (where did it come from, how high ago and how did the fall from that high look, how low ago and how did the rise from that low look). And you take a look at M1 action to see if there are any demonstrative clues that the MMs are now favoring highs for shorting or lows for longing.

If you have ever watched a painter, an artist composing a picture, you will see the application of colors and strokes that look fine, but the artist repeatedly goes back to apply a different dab or swish of the brush to this area or that area. Then finally, when the picture is complete, the artist stands back and looks at it. First an expression of satisfaction.....then a frown.....then a reach for the brush.....another dab or swish.....step back again.....a smile! Done!

It is this way with PVSRA, too. We look, examine, re-examine.....indeterminate....wait....examine again with some new price action....we look back having seen the new price action and suddenly we see the old price action in a new light....aha! There are strong "Aha!" moments and weak ones. There are times we are confident we see what the MMs are about, and times we are not sure. We don't enter trades when we are not sure, and if we are in a trade we watch it like a hawk.

The skill with PVSRA improves with time and exercise of it, but it is applied to a market that is in a state of continual change, so while we see indications over "there" of bulls, we might start to see indications over "here" of bears. At first this can confuse and confound folks that have always thought that things should be "straight forward", unambiguous,.....otherwise they are unreliable and just no good! They have a harder time at mastering PVSRA because it requires thinking in a more flexible way, and taking into account not just the black and white of it, but all the varying shades of gray that create the transitions. And the "Aha!" is not an ultimate cemented state of mastery of PVSRA, that we can step back from and say "Now I have it." The "Aha!" comes in an unending procession of moments, with each "Aha!" moment solely related to a new forex pair being analyzed for a possible upcoming trade, a new PVSRA picture being painted.

-tah
  • #70,385
  • May 3, 2014 1:42pm May 3, 2014 1:42pm
Quoting traderathome
{quote} Sonicers, I love this post by Santos23. PVSRA is an art form. It is quantitative and it is qualitative. You look at some specifics (like loeil examines individual candles at key movements at lows or highs), and you look at the overall flow of price action (where did it come from, how high ago and how did the fall from that high look, how low ago and how did the rise from that low look). And you take a look at M1 action to see if there are any demonstrative clues that the MMs are now favoring highs for shorting or lows for longing. If you...
Thank you, tah. Very enlightening.
My Threads: Trading is as simple as 1-2-3, Highest Open / Lowest Open Trade
  • #70,386
  • Edited 4:54pm May 3, 2014 1:45pm | Edited 4:54pm
Quoting cigarguy
{quote} TooSlow, Good question and I can only answer for myself. Learning PVSRA has been and still is a "work in progress". I can't single out a specific "ah ha" moment, as you mention, but have experienced, during the process of learning PVSRA, several moments of finally understanding that particular part of PVSRA. If you break down what PVSRA is intended to do; 1) Analyze price bars 2) Analyze volume 3) Analyze price and volume relative to S&R (all simply stated), there may well be many "ah ha" moments as each is understood and mastered ultimately...
TAH,

TAH Quote; "If you have ever watched a painter, an artist composing a picture, you will see the application of colors and strokes that look fine, but the artist repeatedly goes back to apply a different dab or swish of the brush to this area or that area. Then finally, when the picture is complete, the artist stands back and looks at it. First an expression of satisfaction.....then a frown.....then a reach for the brush.....another dab or swish.....step back again.....a smile! Done!"

My post is in reference to the PVSRA method analysis not a specific pair. I am sure Michelangelo would see the charts much differently if painted on the Sistine Chapel ceiling.

Just funin too

Regards,
Cigarguy
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Keep It Simple
  • #70,387
  • May 3, 2014 1:50pm May 3, 2014 1:50pm
Quoting TooSlow
{quote} Cigarguy, I am referring to the areas around the whole numbers, not the numbers themselves. Let me try again. How big is the area around the whole numbers that MMs like to do their work? Thank you. Dyekid217, just because it takes some people longer than others to understand and get the right answer, it doesn't mean they are any less of a person. If you finish a test in an hour and it takes me three but we both get 100%, who is smarter? I am TooSlow.
TooSlow,

After finishing my post above, I looked back at some more posts and read this that you asked:

"Cigarguy, I am referring to the areas around the whole numbers, not the numbers themselves. Let me try again. How big is the area around the whole numbers that MMs like to do their work? Thank you."

My first thought was that when you read my last post you will see the answer. Then, on the other hand you might not, so I will try to give an example.....

When an artist is painting a picture of the sea, showing the transition from aqua blue waters to the darker shades of the murky deep, what colors are used and how broad an area should each different color occupy over the transition? And, depending on if the sea is calm or if the sea is rough, the applications of colors will be different, both in shades and breadth of applications. There never are precise measurements to such things.

So it is with such as you have asked about. Depending on things we do not know, the breadth of areas the MMs use to accumulate longs or shorts might be different. If they see a 150-250 pips run coming, maybe they have tighter parameters. But, if they see a run of 400-700 pips coming, maybe they see a breadth of 100 pips or more as totally suitable for accumulation (and for the total confounding of everyone they are trying to sucker). This comes down to the crux of the matter. Regarding how the MMs manipulate prices in the market, nothing can be takes as a given. And this is simply because the MMs are professionals at deceiving & thieving. If the MMs did anything in any regular manner then surely the best mathematical minds that have addressed the markets shenanigans would have come up with an indicator that actually works the way it was hoped it would! None do, and none ever will. There are too many variables to be applied in too many different situations in too many different ways. And the trader that expects things to be precisely defined and quantified is going to have a very difficult time of it.

The last I heard of it, an elephant can still compose a more pleasing original picture than can any computer. Some things are not so "cut and dried" as we think they should be, or would like them to be. Some things we can force into molds. Sometimes, we are forced to get out of ours.

-tah
  • #70,388
  • May 3, 2014 2:23pm May 3, 2014 2:23pm
Quoting TooSlow
{quote} Cigarguy, I am referring to the areas around the whole numbers, not the numbers themselves. Let me try again. How big is the area around the whole numbers that MMs like to do their work? Thank you. Dyekid217, just because it takes some people longer than others to understand and get the right answer, it doesn't mean they are any less of a person. If you finish a test in an hour and it takes me three but we both get 100%, who is smarter? I am TooSlow.
I'm sorry if I misunderstood your question.. your answer can be found with TAH's last response.

These are more are less psychological levels.. just because they are whole/half/quarter etc. doesnt mean that price is going to stop on a dime and reverse at these levels. It's best to just study them yourself as the market moves and see how price reacts at these levels.

For example.. if you see price approaching a whole number what is it doing.. (how much volume is in each candle, where is the volume relative to price, relative to these levels?) These questions will give you a better idea of what the MM's are doing.
  • #70,389
  • May 3, 2014 2:35pm May 3, 2014 2:35pm
TAH and Sonic team,

I get the feel of PVSRA system and have read through most of the key materials , i am not sure if the questions below has been asked earlier, Please do share a link if these have been answered else would like to hear ur thoughts on these

Volume is key premise of the system and since forex is not a centralised market the volume differs across brokers so in this context

1. is there a broker feed that gives decent correlation with this technique that we all should follow
2. Since we would like to get close to good volume trend , can an attempt be done to collate some consolidated volume for the indicator across the MM to get a reliable volume trend ( I understand various issues surrounding it , but some times thinking unthinkable gives simple solutions too - which could also be choosing few representative feeds that give good enough sample for the volume ?

Thanks!
  • #70,390
  • May 3, 2014 2:51pm May 3, 2014 2:51pm
Quoting connect_ananth
TAH and Sonic team, I get the feel of PVSRA system and have read through most of the key materials , i am not sure if the questions below has been asked earlier, Please do share a link if these have been answered else would like to hear ur thoughts on these Volume is key premise of the system and since forex is not a centralised market the volume differs across brokers so in this context 1. is there a broker feed that gives decent correlation with this technique that we all should follow 2. Since we would like to get close to good volume trend ,...
connect_ananth,

Volume is only a third of the whole. It is not the key. No stand alone part is the key, nor sufficient for profitable trading. Truly profitable trading requires the proper analysis of all three!

The validity of volume comes thru seeing relative changes in volume, not discrete levels. And these changes in volume can be witnessed to happen at the same times on any broker platform. And, even though you did not remark on this, we already understand that spot forex volume is only the count of the individual broker's executed trades, and does not even consider the size of each.

-tah
  • #70,391
  • May 3, 2014 3:05pm May 3, 2014 3:05pm
Quoting connect_ananth
TAH and Sonic team, I get the feel of PVSRA system and have read through most of the key materials , i am not sure if the questions below has been asked earlier, Please do share a link if these have been answered else would like to hear ur thoughts on these Volume is key premise of the system and since forex is not a centralised market the volume differs across brokers so in this context 1. is there a broker feed that gives decent correlation with this technique that we all should follow 2. Since we would like to get close to good volume trend ,...
I agree that volume is an important factor but there are more important things, I dont believe in patterns in forex but if your pair has moved down 200 pips and is now in accumulation mode then it would be logical to think it will move up..and this is where the volume comes in with whole/half/quarter levels, so we can decide which move is being accumulated to decide if we are right (long/short), this along with sonic classic entry's and scouts.
YOUR MOTHERS ASS
  • #70,392
  • May 3, 2014 3:06pm May 3, 2014 3:06pm
Quoting traderathome
{quote} ananth, Volume is only a third of the whole. It is not the key. No stand alone part is the key, nor sufficient for profitable trading. Profitable trading requires the proper analysis of all three! The validity of volume comes thru seeing relative changes in volume, not discrete levels. And these changes in volume can be witnessed to happen at the same times on any broker platform. And, even though you did not remark on this, we already understand that spot forex volume is only the count of the individual broker's executed trades, and does...
Tah thanks for the reply , I stand in the queue and along with every one congratulate you and Sonic for making this thread lively and with your inputs and analysis!

I would have liked to test the volume changes across various MT4 brokers, i have not done this test across various (Rather not able to due to this new build release of MT4 ) to verify if the volumes of all brokers show a similar trend that we are looking for and more especially when we have a chance to get relative analysis in M1 time frame , I understand the puzzle is solved by getting all the pieces together and not just by volume part alone , but my concern is what if one of the piece is not correct or fits but is incorrect picture !

So is there a recommendation to use a specific broker at least as a demo , so that volume trends are accurate ?

Also do you consider COT data in your assessment?

Also one issue that i encounter in following this thread just recently is the success or failure / additional learnings on the interpretation and anticipation done ... so i suggest that going forward a review / follow up update be made ( or have a continuous thread per pair) to solidify the learning and for new joiners to back test live examples and create an ideal mindset for PVSRA trading!
  • #70,393
  • Edited 3:28pm May 3, 2014 3:11pm | Edited 3:28pm
Quoting connect_ananth
{quote} Tah thanks for the reply , I stand in the queue and along with every one congratulate you and Sonic for making this thread lively and with your inputs and analysis! I would have liked to test the volume changes across various MT4 brokers, i have not done this test across various (Rather not able to due to this new build release of MT4 ) to verify if the volumes of all brokers show a similar trend that we are looking for and more especially when we have a chance to get relative analysis in M1 time frame , I understand the puzzle is solved by getting all the pieces together and not just by volume part alone , but my concern is what if one of the piece is not correct or fits but is incorrect picture ! So is there a recommendation to use a specific broker at least as a demo , so that volume trends are accurate ? Also do you consider COT data in your assessment? Also one issue that i encounter in following this thread just recently is the success or failure / additional learnings on the interpretation and anticipation done ... so i suggest that going forward a review / follow up update be made ( or have a continuous thread per pair) to solidify the learning and for new joiners to back test live examples and create an ideal mindset for PVSRA trading!
connect_ananth,

1. No.
2. No.
3. You are welcomed to make that contribution to the thread.

I will repeat for you what I wrote in response to TooSlow....

"The last I heard of it, an elephant can still compose a more pleasing original picture than can any computer. Some things are not so "cut and dried" as we think they should be, or would like them to be. Some things we can force into molds. Sometimes, we are forced to get out of ours."

And now let me add this. Traders should think more like artists and less like accountants. Artists somehow manage to perfectly fill in the blank spaces with total mathematical imprecision. For accountants, there can be no blank spaces. Everything must be precise. Unfortunately, the market proficiently deceives & thieves by creating blank spaces - the unknown - which the analytical mind will not accept, and the artistic mind relishes. PVSRA is the paint brush for the artist, not the pen of the accountant.

-tah
  • #70,394
  • May 3, 2014 3:21pm May 3, 2014 3:21pm
Quoting traderathome
{quote} connect_ananth, Volume is only a third of the whole. It is not the key. No stand alone part is the key, nor sufficient for profitable trading. Truly profitable trading requires the proper analysis of all three! The validity of volume comes thru seeing relative changes in volume, not discrete levels. And these changes in volume can be witnessed to happen at the same times on any broker platform. And, even though you did not remark on this, we already understand that spot forex volume is only the count of the individual broker's executed trades,...
This answers many questions.

What is gleaned: The occurance of one piece (volume spike) means to anticipate the other two pieces (price behavior, S&R) to appear and when they do the MMs! This is a what, when and where type of mystery to be solved.

Much appreciated, tah. Cheers!
My Threads: Trading is as simple as 1-2-3, Highest Open / Lowest Open Trade
  • #70,395
  • May 3, 2014 3:35pm May 3, 2014 3:35pm
Quoting traderathome
{quote} connect_ananth, 1. No. 2. No. 3. You are welcomed to make that contribution to the thread. I will repeat for you what I wrote in response to TooSlow.... "The last I heard of it, an elephant can still compose a more pleasing original picture than can any computer. Some things are not so "cut and dried" as we think they should be, or would like them to be. Some things we can force into molds. Sometimes, we are forced to get out of ours." And now let me add this. Traders should think more like artists and less like accountants. Artists somehow...
TAH do you think alot of traders over analyze than is needed here (maybe even more than the MM's themselves) ? sometimes i think this.
YOUR MOTHERS ASS
  • #70,396
  • May 3, 2014 3:37pm May 3, 2014 3:37pm
Quoting TooSlow
After reading, I am confused about how to report pips gained. A one lot trade that gains 100 pips is 100 pip gain. A trader who enters 2 separate 1 lot trades at same time get to report 100 or 200 pip gain? Please forgive me if I am TooSlow.
According to the way sonicers count pips, that would be 200 pips gained. In my opinion it's not very useful to count pips like that, if the separate trades are part of the same trade, because if you enter 10 separate 0.1 lot trades and you win 100 pip, that would make 1000 pips. And if you enter 100 0.01 lot trades, you would make 10000 pips. Anyway, you don't have to make any counting, 'cause the sonic template does it for you.
  • #70,397
  • Edited 6:24pm May 3, 2014 3:47pm | Edited 6:24pm
Quoting Carlicus
{quote} According to the way sonicers count pips, that would be 200 pips gained. In my opinion it's not very useful to count pips like that, if the separate trades are part of the same trade, because if you enter 10 separate 0.1 lot trades and you win 100 pip, that would make 1000 pips. And if you enter 100 0.01 lot trades, you would make 10000 pips. Anyway, you don't have to make any counting, 'cause the sonic template does it for you.
Carlicus,

If trader A made entry of one unit for a chart move of 100 pips, one expects the profit to be 100 pips. Are those ten cent pips? Are those one dollar pips? Are those ten dollar pips? Who cares! Each trader trades a unit type (micro, mini, full) appropriate to account size, and for privacy does not need to inform us.

If trader B makes the same trade, but enters with two units, one expects the profit to be 200 pips.

If trader C makes the same trade, but enters with three and a half units, one expects the profit to be 350 pips.

These results are extremely useful for trade management and it is what most folks would expect. It is what our template does. Our template can also handle multiple entries of varying numbers of units!

-tah
  • #70,398
  • May 3, 2014 3:55pm May 3, 2014 3:55pm
Quoting connect_ananth
{quote} Tah thanks for the reply , I stand in the queue and along with every one congratulate you and Sonic for making this thread lively and with your inputs and analysis! I would have liked to test the volume changes across various MT4 brokers, i have not done this test across various (Rather not able to due to this new build release of MT4 ) to verify if the volumes of all brokers show a similar trend that we are looking for and more especially when we have a chance to get relative analysis in M1 time frame , I understand the puzzle is solved...
Tah ,

i compared two brokers and found the volume different (as expected) . i would like to be in sync with your approach to reading and align on the PVSRA analysis journey , can you share the mt4 terminals to use which will be consistent with yours>
  • #70,399
  • May 3, 2014 4:15pm May 3, 2014 4:15pm
Quoting santos23
{quote} TAH do you think alot of traders over analyze than is needed here (maybe even more than the MM's themselves) ? sometimes i think this.
santos23,

I have no doubt this is the case, both from my own past and from viewing so many posts of others over the years.

The success of the Sonic R. System comes from it's elegant simplicity. Add to that a proficiency with PVSRA and a sound understanding of how the market works (i.e., meaning a working knowledge of the fact that the robber bank MMs manipulate prices and when they are likely to most do so) and Classic trading will bring success. PVSRA will help you see the Classics to enter and your working knowledge of how the market works will foster confidence to stay with the trade when the robber bank MMs are whippin' whacking everyone else out.

PVSRA is not an entry method. It is an analysis. This analysis leads up to a Classic setup, such Classic setup either confirmed by preceding PVSRA, or not. If confirmed, the Classic trade, by all accounts should be a good one. However, remember.....we cannot know how price will move next. Overwhelmingly, the indications favor the trade, but the MMs can at any time reverse price. On the other hand, if the Classic is not confirmed, still it can be traded. Such would have to be watched like a hawk! This is the ambiguity of the market, intentionally made that way by the robber bank MMs, and never resolvable by analysis. As traders, we live with it. We do not attempt to resolve it thru analysis, though many make that attempt and do so for a very long time before they see the futility in it - if they ever see.

-tah
  • #70,400
  • May 3, 2014 4:23pm May 3, 2014 4:23pm
Quoting connect_ananth
{quote} Tah , i compared two brokers and found the volume different (as expected) . i would like to be in sync with your approach to reading and align on the PVSRA analysis journey , can you share the mt4 terminals to use which will be consistent with yours>
connect_ananth,

I have multiple accounts thru different brokers, as is evident thru my postings. None show exactly the same, but all show adequately for PVSRA. You, as I, reside in USA. There are only a hand full of brokers available to you. Take your pic. Any difference you see "today" might favor one, and "tomorrow" might favor another, and in the bigger picture all are adequate. I am not new to the use of volume. You can take my word on it or not.

-tah
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