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Trading Without a StopLoss

  • #961
  • Nov 22, 2013 10:31pm Nov 22, 2013 10:31pm
Quoting realjumper
{quote} Slim can look after himself.....as evidenced by his more than 200 charts posted. All I see from you is more yappin {quote} If you read even a little of the thread you would have the answer to that question. {quote} No, of course you don't....you're real big on yappin, but tiny at backing up your mouth with evidence..... So now...back to my question.....please show us how you alone (the self professed 0.1% of all traders who are profitable....still waiting on evidence to support this claim), can counter the market. It's a simple question,...
I have not read your thread at all, and I have no reason to believe you are profitable. You haven't said anything that would make me think, hmmm, this guy's got something.
  • #962
  • Nov 22, 2013 10:32pm Nov 22, 2013 10:32pm
Quoting jmn5611
{quote} I am not a no stop loss guy. I use stops, but they are not in the market.
Stops are good so long as no one else knows where it is. Especially, you don't want to tell the banks because they love buy low sell high too much.
  • #963
  • Nov 22, 2013 10:34pm Nov 22, 2013 10:34pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} If you are making money then that is definitely the idea. You clearly have plenty of counter measures for the market. My definition of active measures fits you perfectly. I have been advocating occasionally that taking opposite direction trades while keeping the original trade is the way to go if the market is perceived to have changed direction. But it is difficult to identify when the market is turning. Also it's not always possible to take the opposite trade because of sleeping, down time, etc. So my latest big idea is to take the opposite...
Good luck with the testing and I hope it works out for you. I my trading world, this approach would involve a lot of moving pieces that requires lots of management time (to keep balanced, etc). If you don't mind, please let me know what you find in the final analysis. I try to avoid complex things while trading and this makes me wonder if it might get out of control too easily. Again, best wishes and good trading.
  • #964
  • Nov 22, 2013 10:35pm Nov 22, 2013 10:35pm
Quoting nubcake
I'm starting to feel sad for you.
No need. I regularly handle a horde coming at me at me single-handedly.
  • #965
  • Nov 22, 2013 10:36pm Nov 22, 2013 10:36pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} I have not read your thread at all, and I have no reason to believe you are profitable. You haven't said anything that would make me think, hmmm, this guy's got something.
Well that's because, unlike you, I'm not here to blow my own trumpet.

So now...back to my question.....please show us how you alone (the self professed 0.1% of all traders who are profitable....still waiting on evidence to support this claim), can counter the market.

It's a simple question, and an expert such as yourself should be able to explain this, together with a few supporting charts, to us 99.9% losers.

Please......show us where we are all going wrong.....with supporting charts.
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #966
  • Nov 22, 2013 10:42pm Nov 22, 2013 10:42pm
Quoting GEfx
{quote} Good luck with the testing and I hope it works out for you. I my trading world, this approach would involve a lot of moving pieces that requires lots of management time (to keep balanced, etc). If you don't mind, please let me know what you find in the final analysis. I try to avoid complex things while trading and this makes me wonder if it might get out of control too easily. Again, best wishes and good trading.
Yes, it will involve work. But nothing more than what I already do. Since I look at the screen all day anyway, doing something makes it less boring. There' will be no precision needed because the market itself is not precise.
  • #967
  • Nov 22, 2013 10:45pm Nov 22, 2013 10:45pm
Quoting realjumper
{quote} Well that's because, unlike you, I'm not here to blow my own trumpet. So now...back to my question.....please show us how you alone (the self professed 0.1% of all traders who are profitable....still waiting on evidence to support this claim), can counter the market. It's a simple question, and an expert such as yourself should be able to explain this, together with a few supporting charts, to us 99.9% losers. Please......show us where we are all going wrong.....with supporting charts.
I can't tell where everyone has gone wrong. But I can tell you where you have gone wrong, that you are not convincing enough. You have none of the characteristics of the other people who convinced me.
  • #968
  • Nov 22, 2013 10:45pm Nov 22, 2013 10:45pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} So my latest big idea is to take the opposite trade at all times. That way I don't have to worry about the direction and can focus only on ensuring the bi-directional trades are generally well balanced. As for precisely how this balancing is done, that would be proprietary info. I am currently at the early stage of testing this approach. Only time will tell if this will work.
And you will continue to have the "latest big idea" until you finally concentrate on attempting to trade
a system/method that makes sense for you and that you can adapt to your specific liking.

If you have a "latest big idea" every few weeks.. do you really think that's going to cut it.
Look at yourself........ You claim so much but change on a whim.

Now...... please let me know when your "latest big idea" happens so that I can run the other way.
When the Joker is in the deck.. fear not and play it well
  • #969
  • Nov 22, 2013 10:48pm Nov 22, 2013 10:48pm
Quoting Slim Buffett
{quote} And you will continue to have the "latest big idea" until you finally concentrate on attempting to trade a system/method that makes sense for you and that you can adapt to your specific liking. If you have a "latest big idea" every few weeks.. do you really think that's going to cut it. Look at yourself........ You claim so much but change on a whim. Now...... please let me know when your "latest big idea" happens so that I can run the other way.
It happened many pages ago. But I have a feeling you are going to follow me everywhere I go.
  • #970
  • Nov 22, 2013 10:54pm Nov 22, 2013 10:54pm
Party over for me, for now. bye bye.
  • #971
  • Nov 22, 2013 10:59pm Nov 22, 2013 10:59pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} I can't tell where everyone has gone wrong. But I can tell you where you have gone wrong, that you are not convincing enough. You have none of the characteristics of the other people who convinced me.
I'm not trying to be convincing. I'm giving YOU the opportunity to show us 99.9% losers what you have.

So now...back to my question.....please show us how you alone (the self professed 0.1% of all traders who are profitable....still waiting on evidence to support this claim), can counter the market.

It's a simple question, and an expert such as yourself should be able to explain this, together with a few supporting charts, to us 99.9% losers.

Please......show us where we are all going wrong.....with supporting charts.
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #972
  • Nov 22, 2013 11:11pm Nov 22, 2013 11:11pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} It happened many pages ago. But I have a *feeling you are going to follow me everywhere I go.
What happened ??
That you changed your mind/method on a whim because it (wasn't) simply not working for you ?

That's the change I see.

As for your "*feeling" , it's probably a lot like your trading...........
You'll likely have to think about that for a minute but you'll get it....

well... in your instance, maybe not

But you've still FAILED to say anything worthwhile.
C'mon Joe !!!
When the Joker is in the deck.. fear not and play it well
  • #973
  • Nov 22, 2013 11:38pm Nov 22, 2013 11:38pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
Party over for me, for now. bye bye.

Hey Joe !!!!

Somewhere within the following chart and during this week
lies a RED BET.

It's suggestive of the odds being in your favor

You can do away with all the BS indies. It will not change the outcome.
The circumstance of whether I'm long or short will not change the outcome.
(except in the balance of my account(s)

I'm sorry the party is over for you.
But you can (maybe must) make red or black bets depending on your perception.
Of course, in trading it isn't often called "bet".

'eh, forget the chart

parties over !

Have a happy
When the Joker is in the deck.. fear not and play it well
  • #974
  • Nov 23, 2013 12:16am Nov 23, 2013 12:16am
Quoting shellsnail
{quote} Are you trolling?
This should answer a few questions...
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: mystery_solved.jpg.jpg Size: 327 KB
"To hold, you must first open your hand. Let go." - Lao Tzu
  • #975
  • Nov 23, 2013 6:50am Nov 23, 2013 6:50am
I really don't care if a person is making a lot of money or not with his idea. The question is, can I make money with it. A guy with a great idea may still be going down the tubes- but with a little tweak, you have a real winner.

All those great looking trade reports can be faked but if an idea they tout is clear to you and you can make it work, isn't that what counts?

Stop calling people jerks. That does not help the person you are calling a jerk or anyone else.

If you want to be helpful, tell me why you object to this idea or that. Tell me what it is about fixed stop losses that make them indispensable to you .
Or tell me how, if I do not use fixed stop losses, I can still protect myself from margin call.

Do so in language that tells me you understand my ideas and are not just rejecting them out of hand because they are not your own.

That way , even if you disagree with me, I can still learn from you, and even if it is only in understanding better why you disagree with me, you will learn more about your own way of making money.

As for as a person who makes changes in his system is concerned, Who is so well off, or so stupid, that they will not welcome an idea that will make them even more money?

Here is an argument for fixed stop losses I am seriously considering:

The market may be in such a panic that you cannot get your close in in time to prevent ruin. That has happened as recently as 2008 , or so I am told. So what if I become comatose for a month, the market crashes, and I awake to find myself wiped out.?
If I set a stop loss 500 p or so from where the price is now, I am safe from that catastrophe, and still have plenty of time to monitor and adjust strategies in a normal day. (Like closing a trade plunging into loss before it hits that stop loss).

Now, is using a fixed stop loss that is so low that it will never be activated actually using a fixed stop loss?

How about an ea that closes a trade when it crosses the 8bar moving average in the time scale you trade by 5 pips?(or maybe comes near to it by 3 pips, etc.)?

How about both something like this and a fixed "prevent the ultimate catastrophe" stop loss?

Sumtin to tink about.

as always,

A Margin call is a Terrible Thing!
  • #976
  • Nov 23, 2013 8:30am Nov 23, 2013 8:30am
Quoting realjumper
{quote} I'm not trying to be convincing. I'm giving YOU the opportunity to show us 99.9% losers what you have. So now...back to my question.....please show us how you alone (the self professed 0.1% of all traders who are profitable....still waiting on evidence to support this claim), can counter the market. It's a simple question, and an expert such as yourself should be able to explain this, together with a few supporting charts, to us 99.9% losers. Please......show us where we are all going wrong.....with supporting charts.
I have been saying since the beginning of this thread that making a guarantee to buy high and sell low is a major reason that people are going wrong. Since you follow this practice, there's no way for you to succeed either. The added trouble for you is that, you admit yourself, you are not convincing. Therefore my conclusion is that you have no clue when it comes to profitability.

Unlike you I don't care if others think I am profitable. I see no reason to prove anything. But one thing I can say is that nearly every day, I buy low and sell high. Occasionally, I take a loss to adjust my stance to better fit the situation.

So the answer to how to be profitable is to buy low and sell high. I know this works because I have plenty of experience doing it.

With my latest innovation in strategy. I will double my rate of buying low and selling high. I estimate it will have double the rate of recoverability from imbalances. Further it will have a potential side benefit of hedging in adverse conditions. If there ever is a holy grail, I think this is going to be it. No, I am not going to show you how it works.
  • #977
  • Nov 23, 2013 8:35am Nov 23, 2013 8:35am
Quoting Rap Skallion
If I set a stop loss 500 p or so from where the price is now, I am safe from that catastrophe, and still have plenty of time to monitor and adjust strategies in a normal day. (Like closing a trade plunging into loss before it hits that stop loss). Now, is using a fixed stop loss that is so low that it will never be activated actually using a fixed stop loss? How about an ea that closes a trade when it crosses the 8bar moving average in the time scale you trade by 5 pips?(or maybe comes near to it by 3 pips, etc.)? How about both something like this...
I understand your point here, and have several trading friends in the trading group that I belong to who trade this way. It works for them. However, they are very good traders. Very smart, experienced, deep pockets, and highly disciplined. Why they put up with me is beyond me!

Not to make this more complicated, but what is the purpose, the value, of a trade? By letting a trade run against you for so long and so far, you are giving it much more value than it may ever be able to deliver back to you. I'm not trying to talk you out of anything. But if institutional traders, who sometimes trade without stops, obsess over risk, then retail traders should, too. Our obsession can manifest itself in the form of a stop or a hedge, or even a rule as you talked about above. It's important to each of us at traders that we can prove to ourselves that, what ever risk management technique we rely upon, our risk management approach works in real world trading.

If you want to have a more detailed discussion about this with charts and examples, that might be fun.
  • #978
  • Nov 23, 2013 11:47am Nov 23, 2013 11:47am
Quoting GEfx
{quote} Good luck with the testing and I hope it works out for you. I my trading world, this approach would involve a lot of moving pieces that requires lots of management time (to keep balanced, etc). If you don't mind, please let me know what you find in the final analysis. I try to avoid complex things while trading and this makes me wonder if it might get out of control too easily. Again, best wishes and good trading.
If you set a maximum size allotment, you can make keeping things balanced and managing profit/loss ratios a lot easier.
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #979
  • Nov 23, 2013 11:49am Nov 23, 2013 11:49am
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} Stops are good so long as no one else knows where it is. Especially, you don't want to tell the banks because they love buy low sell high too much.
Exactly, and I would add that since no one knows what the market is going to do, having a hard stop makes no sense to me. Liquid stops are much much better.
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #980
  • Nov 23, 2013 11:59am Nov 23, 2013 11:59am
Quoting jmn5611
{quote} If you set a maximum size allotment, you can make keeping things balanced and managing profit/loss ratios a lot easier.
Going large on events that you largely have no control make no sense. That is the direction of gambling.

I think people should not be afraid of work if such work produces a return. I would understand it if people avoid work when there's no obvious sign of pay-off.
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