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Trading Without a StopLoss

  • #421
  • Nov 13, 2013 12:19am Nov 13, 2013 12:19am
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} I have not given anyone my way. The argument was whether you and 2+2 can predict.
Neither 2+2, bluesteele, myself, or any other trader in favor of stopping/limiting losses has said such thing. Quite the contrary! Reread the posts and you will quickly find we all say the market cannot be predicted 100% of time. Being able to predict the market 100% of the time were it possible would of course be the best thing for a trader. Well, it isn't possible. So we all say do the 2nd best thing, which is to take for granted the market will do the worst it can to you. Consequently, act accordingly by limiting losses and preserving capital.

There are many enlightening quotes by Paul Tudor Jones on the subject. Do a quick google search if you will.

Here's one:

If I have positions going against me, I get right out; if they are going for me, I keep them… Risk control is the most important thing in trading. If you have a losing position that is making you uncomfortable, the solution is very simple: Get out, because you can always get back in.

Btw, you may not have given your way (strategy/method/system/whatever), but I see clearly what you're doing, and it's not for me.
"To hold, you must first open your hand. Let go." - Lao Tzu
  • #422
  • Edited 6:44am Nov 13, 2013 6:29am | Edited 6:44am
Quoting vox dei
{quote} Neither 2+2, bluesteele, myself, or any other trader in favor of stopping/limiting losses has said such thing. Quite the contrary! Reread the posts and you will quickly find we all say the market cannot be predicted 100% of time. Being able to predict the market 100% of the time were it possible would of course be the best thing for a trader. Well, it isn't possible. So we all say do the 2nd best thing, which is to take for granted the market will do the worst it can to you. Consequently, act accordingly by limiting losses and preserving...
What Paul Tudor Jones said is perfectly fine. Although the less experienced may not be able to pick up the full meaning of what he said. He stated:

"If you have a losing position that is making you uncomfortable ..."

This means that are are losing positions that you should be comfortable with. Otherwise there would never be a need for this conditionality. To put simply: losing positions that can be manage/danced out should be managed/danced and be comfortable with. For positions that are beyond help, those should be exited.

What you and 2+2 are failing to grasp is the ability to be comfortable with temporary losing positions that can be reversed. So both of you exit potentially perfectly good trades out of fear and panic. You believe losses will run indefinitely, and 2+2 believed losses will run into multi-years. These fears are not based on reality but on pure fantasy that you have made for yourselves. As both of you admit to be unable to make predictions, my suggestion would be to stop making random prediction of how far bad trades can go but start learning real skills in assessing bad trades.

You'd do well to heed Paul Tudor Jones's advice. Once you are able to be comfortable with as many trades as he could, some of which may look bad but in fact are not, perhaps you will start to see the light at the end of the tunnel.
  • #423
  • Nov 13, 2013 7:17am Nov 13, 2013 7:17am
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} What Paul Tudor Jones said is perfectly fine. Although the less experienced may not be able to pick up the full meaning of what he said. He stated: "If you have a losing position that is making you uncomfortable ..." This means that are are losing positions that you should be comfortable with. Otherwise there would never be a need for this conditionality. To put simply: losing positions that can be manage/danced out should be managed/danced and be comfortable with. For positions that are beyond help, those should be exited. What you and...
You are assuming you know the first thing about me, or 2+2 for that matter. Let me tell you, you don't. Period.

You really think you're going to be the one showing me the light at the end of the tunnel LOL

Trading from my team:

Check the draw down noob!
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"To hold, you must first open your hand. Let go." - Lao Tzu
  • #424
  • Nov 13, 2013 7:41am Nov 13, 2013 7:41am
Quoting vox dei
{quote} You are assuming you know the first thing about me, or 2+2 for that matter. Let me tell you, you don't. Period. You really think you're going to be the one showing me the light at the end of the tunnel LOL Trading from my team: Check the draw down noob! {image} {image} {image}
I know both you and 2+2 are not good at predicting. I was kinda letting Paul Tudor Jones showing you the light. I know you wouldn't listen to me.

I don't actually know what all the statements mean, I am new here. Some people indicate their demo trading, others show their real trading. I have no idea which is which for yours.

To focus only on draw downs seems to be a common noob trait. In the end, I think longevity and profitability are the only factors that matter.
  • #425
  • Nov 13, 2013 7:59am Nov 13, 2013 7:59am
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} I know both you and 2+2 are not good at predicting. I was kinda letting Paul Tudor Jones showing you the light. I know you wouldn't listen to me. I don't actually know what all the statements mean, I am new here. Some people indicate their demo trading, others show their real trading. I have no idea which is which for yours. To focus only on draw downs seems to be a common noob trait. In the end, I think longevity and profitability are the only factors that matter.
You and the other noob troll before are here just to annoy other people. You've managed to piss me off! But, all clear now.

Someone wise once said: 'people cannot be taught, people can only learn'

So go and learn... and please come back only when you are able to make a trade like this one from last night:

Goodbye
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"To hold, you must first open your hand. Let go." - Lao Tzu
  • #426
  • Nov 13, 2013 8:15am Nov 13, 2013 8:15am
Quoting vox dei
{quote} You and the other noob troll before are here just to annoy other people. You've managed to piss me off! But, all clear now. Someone wise once said: 'people cannot be taught, people can only learn' So go and learn... and please come back only when you are able to make a trade like this one from last night: Goodbye {image}
It would be easier if you just say exactly what you have done and what I should look for. I had a look and not quite making the head of tail of it. Is it a good trade then ?

Before I went to sleep last night, I closed more than 100 trades in GBP. Am I supposed to be impressed with your one trade ?
  • #427
  • Nov 13, 2013 4:45pm Nov 13, 2013 4:45pm
This is my last post ever addressed at you. You have forced way too many inelegant posts on my part already!

You are not here to help anyone achieving the mindset that allows consistently profitable trading. How could you? You’re but a demo trader. You have zero experience trading real money. Your sole purpose here is to create strife and turn the thread into your very own trollfest. That can be clearly seen by the systematic tactics you’ve used to force several legit traders into wasting their time and energy writing post after post addressed at you: You’ve openly insulted others and their trading, defended absurdities that would put any aspiring/new trader on the road to financial ruin, intentionally distorted/misrepresented/twisted/reversed useful things others were trying to say, made it look like you were not following, aimed condescending remarks at others, belittled others to elevate yourself etc. No wonder I've become emotional and genuinely pissed off. But not anymore.



All that said, my purpose by posting real money myfxaccounts screenshots traded by legit traders has nothing to do with making myself look great and you know that perfectly well… otherwise, you’d be looking at screenshots of million$ accounts LOL and not such modest accounts.

The purpose is twofold:

#1 These are accounts that illustrate what limiting the losses is all about, and how real money should be traded under tight risk control.

#2 I'm honestly fed up with all your BS cause all you have shown us are grandiose words... so these also serve to call you out for the fraud you really are. A demo trader, posing as someone who has actual experience trading real money, in detriment of others, who actually happen know first-hand what they are talking about, and worse yet, giving free KILLER ACCOUNT advice to those poor souls unfortunate to enough to take you seriously.
"To hold, you must first open your hand. Let go." - Lao Tzu
  • #428
  • Nov 13, 2013 10:15pm Nov 13, 2013 10:15pm
If you have much balance in your account and you think free margin is very high then you can work with out SL. It is very risky
  • #429
  • Nov 13, 2013 11:08pm Nov 13, 2013 11:08pm
Trading without stoploss like you play with the bomb but, if you know how to play it ok. Because trading forex is like a art and it to difficult how to describe. OK if you trade without stop loss you have use pending order to trade never use instant order. for ex: if you want to take post buy order (pending order) and and same time you have to take post sell order (pending order) let say 20 pips or more from pending order buy. I one of the trader use this system and work succes for me and more profit until now. If both of pending order activate i will call this floating profit and i love it because
i,ve got solution how to solve this. How to entry and trade this system i will post later ... it very easy to trade just find out the best candlestick to make a pending order an take profit
  • #430
  • Nov 14, 2013 3:30am Nov 14, 2013 3:30am
Quoting shellsnail
{quote} They're not specifically targeting you. It is just that retails happen to have stops bunched up in obvious areas. Interbank FX traders like to sweep those areas to get liquidity to fill their clients' or their bank's trades.

thanks bro for response..you are correct they are not targeting me(specially) they are targeting so called stop loss number like sup res area,round number....fibo...pivot..wave level etc which we are generally use for stop loss and we know different broker use diff spreads and think they used their weapons to suck that huge (bucks) and just kiss da ass n again u turn ........................
Say something meaningful or Silence!!
  • #431
  • Nov 14, 2013 10:53am Nov 14, 2013 10:53am
Quoting vox dei
#2 I'm honestly fed up with all your BS cause all you have shown us are grandiose words... so these also serve to call you out for the fraud you really are.
The only fraud I can see is your claims to be able to predict losses will continue indefinitely. You have no such ability.
  • #432
  • Nov 14, 2013 12:44pm Nov 14, 2013 12:44pm
W ether you use pending orders or go in right away, you have given it careful thought and the best analysis of Price action you can. (hapefully you did not pull a number out of a hat and say when it hits this I will buy. I assume you use risk-reward ratios. pattern analysis, have some way to determining market sentiment, and are ready to change your entry numbers when you see market conditions change.

Now what I suggest is not that you hang on to your trade until it takes you to your doom, but that you close a losing trade with the same care that you took to try for a winning one. You have a trade going and you see that instead of going the way you want toward the target you want it goes the other way.
I would suggest you take a carefully reasoned estimate of where the target is that is is going to now. Ask your self, assuming you hit this target, What are the chances it will continue vs. chances it will come back into profit for you? Are you giving up principle just to have the privilege of not carrying the debt (at leverage of 50 to 1 or more) until it comes back into profit? Or even carrying it to where it comes back to a loss of lesser value?
(Too often a fixed stop loss takes you out of a trade just before it comes back in your direction).

Now by doing this, your closure at a loss is a reasoned decision based upon your view of the market at the moment you close, not some arbitrary number you picked out hours ago under different market conditions.

Don't just close it and forget about the trade. Watch what the market does after the trade is closed. Analyze a day later or maybe end of week, whether your decision to close the trade was wise.

I have been doing this for years and find that the majority of my trades closed thus, were closed too soon. So my closes at a loss are getting fewer and fewer.
I expect to find a time when I see too many trades closed too late, at too much cost. Then I will start to close them earlier.
Am I making myself a millionaire in a week? No... But I am still here, still learning by experience to make wiser and wiser decisions, both on entry and on exiting the trades.

I trade small enough to be able to survive mistakes. Even there, I make 20%- 30 % pretty dependably.

However if you are happy with your results using fixed stop losses, why change?
  • #433
  • Nov 14, 2013 12:59pm Nov 14, 2013 12:59pm
nice ... nice... i go for few days and you are fighting each others...

here is a snapshot for my trades for today, closed since few hours, and these trades are open ( some of them ) since two hours to three weeks back , and WITHOUT A STOP LOSS AT ALL, AND NON LOST AND I GAIN EVEN MORE MONEY BY THE SWAP..

ENJOY

NO STOP LOSS is better for you if you know when and how to trade the correct strategy...... SSII ( simple strategy ii / samer00000 )

think
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GUYS BE AWARE FROM HUNTING YOUR STOP LOSSES BY YOUR BROKER & BY "GHOSTS"
  • #434
  • Nov 14, 2013 1:05pm Nov 14, 2013 1:05pm
GUYS BE AWARE FROM HUNTING YOUR STOP LOSSES BY YOUR BROKER & BY "GHOSTS"
  • #435
  • Nov 14, 2013 2:00pm Nov 14, 2013 2:00pm
How does this making money from swap work ? Every day I have 100's of trades open. Why am I not getting money for them ? In fact I have to pay interest on the margin used.
  • #436
  • Nov 14, 2013 2:07pm Nov 14, 2013 2:07pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
How does this making money from swap work ? Every day I have 100's of trades open. Why am I not getting money for them ? In fact I have to pay interest on the margin used.
In theory, you borrow to trade. so you pay interest for that borrowing - with your broker that is.

swaps is carry trading - its related to interest rate differentials. best example is NZDJPY or AUDJPY.

kiwi and aussie rates are 2.5%, BOJ has a rate <0.10% (from FF).

so the net interest difference is 2.4% for long on NZDJPY or AUDJPY.

can explain further if you want, just quote this post and ill get back to you
Even the worst trade can close with profit. Just give it time.
  • #437
  • Nov 14, 2013 2:07pm Nov 14, 2013 2:07pm
Quoting Samer1970
nice ... nice... i go for few days and you are fighting each others... here is a snapshot for my trades for today, closed since few hours, and these trades are open ( some of them ) since two hours to three weeks back , and WITHOUT A STOP LOSS AT ALL, AND NON LOST AND I GAIN EVEN MORE MONEY BY THE SWAP.. ENJOY NO STOP LOSS is better for you if you know when and how to trade the correct strategy...... SSII ( simple strategy ii / samer00000 ) think {image}
Hi Samer,

1st Very nice looking account statement. Congratulations on banking the pips

2nd There's no relevant information in that statement though. Rewards alone are not diagnostic of good/safe trading practices. Rewards only make sense when compared to risk. I would like very much to see account statistics like those shown by myfxbook. Would it be possible for you to post a myfxbook screenie? Thanks in advance.

Btw, just a reminder of my stand here: I'm not against trading that does not use stop loss orders, although my personal preference is to use a stop loss order. What I'm really 100% against is trading that does not use the concept of stopping/limiting/cutting losses in a timely manner.

Kind Regards
"To hold, you must first open your hand. Let go." - Lao Tzu
  • #438
  • Nov 14, 2013 2:09pm Nov 14, 2013 2:09pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
How does this making money from swap work ? Every day I have 100's of trades open. Why am I not getting money for them ? In fact I have to pay interest on the margin used.
because you are dealing with wrong choice. !! i am not making an adv for any broker here, but i have faced the same before with an ugly broker who f..ked me by long and short both -ve swap, and even worse, at night this broker was shifting the open point to another location to make my life more worse.
and after i have been f...ked for several months, like a stupid , i was a new trader, i said, swap!! then i searched internet, and i found the beauty of making money from carry trade and swap , then i began to search for a legal broker who respects his clients and respects the honor of trading until i found alpari.
GUYS BE AWARE FROM HUNTING YOUR STOP LOSSES BY YOUR BROKER & BY "GHOSTS"
  • #439
  • Nov 14, 2013 2:09pm Nov 14, 2013 2:09pm
Quoting Samer1970
nice ... nice... i go for few days and you are fighting each others... here is a snapshot for my trades for today, closed since few hours, and these trades are open ( some of them ) since two hours to three weeks back , and WITHOUT A STOP LOSS AT ALL, AND NON LOST AND I GAIN EVEN MORE MONEY BY THE SWAP.. ENJOY NO STOP LOSS is better for you if you know when and how to trade the correct strategy...... SSII ( simple strategy ii / samer00000 ) think {image}
Run it for a year. I have.

Admittingly I was greedy one night and used bigger leverage with very tight SL 5-10 pips. to try. A couple worked, but ended up losing out there.


If you plan to use no SL, remember market can and will move 3000 pips against you. a lifetime ago people used 100 on EURJPY as support, I remember when it broke into 99.9 I was so worried. today is trades in the high 130's. something to consider
Even the worst trade can close with profit. Just give it time.
  • #440
  • Nov 14, 2013 2:14pm Nov 14, 2013 2:14pm
Quoting vox dei
{quote} Hi Samer, 1st Very nice looking account statement. Congratulations on banking the pips 2nd There's no relevant information in that statement though. Rewards alone are not diagnostic of good/safe trading practices. Rewards only make sense when compared to risk. I would like very much to see account statistics like those shown by myfxbook. Would it be possible for you to post a myfxbook screenie? Thanks in advance. Btw, just a reminder of my stand here: I'm not against trading that does not use stop loss orders, although my personal...
thank you for your nice comments and writings.
please refer to my strategy link as attached herewith in F>F>
http://www.forexfactory.com/showthre...427935&page=61
my theory is very simple, no sl, no indi, and eat as much as you can but keep in your account 40% safety for any bad times to fart it away... got it !! a ha ha
GUYS BE AWARE FROM HUNTING YOUR STOP LOSSES BY YOUR BROKER & BY "GHOSTS"
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