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Trading Without a StopLoss

  • #401
  • Nov 12, 2013 7:00pm Nov 12, 2013 7:00pm
Quoting Turveyd
{quote} Incomprehensible to you maybe, but no issues for me completely comprehensible infact, merely too confusing for you.
Maybe, but I'm wondering how many multi-year losses you still have running.
The thing I've found is that;
when you have a (large) loss running it distracts you from other and more
profitable trades.

For my part, I don't have an MM that would allow multi-year losers,

and I'm going to keep it that way. Even though you may find the idea of
"making money" incomprehensible. (from reading many of your posts that

seems to be your main psychological problem; right?)


ATB
When the Joker is in the deck.. fear not and play it well
  • #402
  • Nov 12, 2013 7:03pm Nov 12, 2013 7:03pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} I have the capacity to carry a loss for months or years. I find it to be a good thing because I am not easily bustable. I believe trades can be danced out of trouble.
You already said that.
Get off the Xanax or whatever it is.

When you "dance" a trade out of trouble let me know how many years that took.

OK?

C'ya in a few
When the Joker is in the deck.. fear not and play it well
  • #403
  • Nov 12, 2013 7:10pm Nov 12, 2013 7:10pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} The argument was that 2+2 was saying the market (trades) was unpredictable, except on losing trades. On losing trades those were supposed to be predictable to run for multiple years. Therefore it makes sense to use SL to prevent a multi-year loss. My contention was that even losing trades cannot be predicted to run for a predetermined period. Therefore an SL may not be necessary or even right for use to prevent a multi-year loss given that the precise duration of the loss is unknown. It is therefore my conclusion that an SL is merely a possible...
I don't think that's what 2+2 meant exactly. Anyway, only 2+2 can tell.

I think that shellsnail was very right when he pointed out most of this discussion seems to be fueled by a mix up between stop loss as concept and stop loss as order. We all seem to agree that letting losses run indefinitely is a guaranteed account killer.
"To hold, you must first open your hand. Let go." - Lao Tzu
  • #404
  • Nov 12, 2013 7:17pm Nov 12, 2013 7:17pm
Quoting Slim Buffett
{quote} You already said that. Get off the Xanax or whatever it is. When you "dance" a trade out of trouble let me know how many years that took. OK? C'ya in a few
Some dancing took days, other dancing took weeks. The dancing can take as long as it needs. This is the reason for having the capacity. One could dance and trade at the same time. A lot of trading is waiting anyway, so a bit of dancing is no trouble. If there is too much dancing involved, I 'd throw stuff out. But that doesn't happen too often because often bad trade have been danced out of trouble.

I regularly trade a very large number of trades and positions. I am happiest when I don't have a second of free time. I have the capacity for it.
  • #405
  • Nov 12, 2013 7:22pm Nov 12, 2013 7:22pm
Quoting vox dei
We all seem to agree that letting losses run indefinitely is a guaranteed account killer.
You are making the same error as 2+2. How do you know it's indefinite ? You can tell the future like 2+2 could ?

An account killer is something malignant. Not all bad trades are malignant.
  • #406
  • Nov 12, 2013 7:28pm Nov 12, 2013 7:28pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} Some dancing took days, other dancing took weeks. The dancing can take as long as it needs. This is the reason for having the capacity.
Yeah, well I love dancing. But I can't get married to a trade. In trading, if she doesn't put out
fairly soon then I have to move.

That's how she rolls.
When the Joker is in the deck.. fear not and play it well
  • #407
  • Nov 12, 2013 7:35pm Nov 12, 2013 7:35pm
Quoting Slim Buffett
{quote} Yeah, well I love dancing. But I can't get married to a trade. In trading, if she doesn't put out fairly soon then I have to move. That's how she rolls.
I am polygamous when it comes to trading. I keep a whole harem at my service. If any particular one is out of favour, I might like her later.

Maybe you are one of those serial monogamists ? But probability favours the polygamist. It's probably stated as the first principles of investing.
  • #408
  • Nov 12, 2013 7:52pm Nov 12, 2013 7:52pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} I am polygamous when it comes to trading. I keep a whole harem at my service. If any particular one is out of favour, I might like her later. Maybe you are one of those sequential monogamists ? But probability favours the polygamist. It's probably stated as the first principles of investing.
So are you suggesting that trading is (mostly) sexually related ??

"It's probably stated as the first principles of investing."

And can you show me evidence regarding that statement. It matters not if one is a "P" or "M'

What matters is, if your mind and your "heart" are in " synch ". You should take a minute to
digest that.
When the Joker is in the deck.. fear not and play it well
  • #409
  • Nov 12, 2013 8:02pm Nov 12, 2013 8:02pm
Quoting Slim Buffett
{quote} So are you suggesting that trading is (mostly) sexually related ?? "It's probably stated as the first principles of investing." And can you show me evidence regarding that statement. It matters not if one is a "P" or "M' What matters is, if your mind and your "heart" are in " synch ". You should take a minute to digest that.
What I gave you was a metaphor.

My heart doesn't play a part in my trading. It used to when I gambled and sought the adrenaline. Now trading is a thinking game and involves just the mind. My heart barely makes a beat if I see a 100 pips of profit on my screen. In fact I have been sitting with close to 100 with my GBP trades all day. I am still contemplating if I should take it ahead of a whole day of GBP news tomorrow. I don't think I will wake up in time for the first volatilities.
  • #410
  • Nov 12, 2013 8:10pm Nov 12, 2013 8:10pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} You are making the same error as 2+2. How do you know it's indefinite ? You can tell the future like 2+2 could ? An account killer is something malignant. Not all bad trades are malignant.
I can only agree with you assuming an account has unlimited funding, and we both know that's not possible. It is precisely because one can never tell the future, that one should always err on the side of caution (after all we're talking about trading with real money on the line here, are we not?), and assume that given enough time the worst case scenario will become reality. Leaving the position to run amok against, on the other hand, now that, the way I see it is suffering from the delusion one can tell the future by considering an impossibility that a single rogue position couldn't run an entire account down. The market doesn't obey commands, desires, hopes, or wishes. It can always happen... Better play safe and assume it will happen, period.

Not to mention, damaging side effects like the opportunity/time cost caused by less available margin (floating losses are effectively closed losses, since both mean less capital available to trade with), or diminished psychological well-being and physical/mental fitness (eg, constant worrying, low self-esteem, can't get sleep, can't concentrate, more prone to judgment errors, high blood pressure, etc etc) caused by having a large loss running that one really has no idea when/if it will ever come back to break even.
"To hold, you must first open your hand. Let go." - Lao Tzu
  • #411
  • Nov 12, 2013 8:16pm Nov 12, 2013 8:16pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} What I gave you was a metaphor.
Sadly, you didn't "give" me anything other than what seems like a lot of BS.


Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote}My heart doesn't play a part in my trading. It used to when I gambled and sought the adrenaline. Now trading is a thinking game and involves just the mind. My heart barely makes a beat if I see a 100 pips of profit on my screen. In fact I have been sitting with close to 100 with my GBP trades all day. I am still contemplating if I should take it ahead of a whole days of GBP news tomorrow. I don't think I will wake up in time for the first volatilities.
And honestly; aren't you contradicting yourself ? Anyway, according to your past posts you should just let your
great GBP trade run for a few more years. What's 100 pips? Hardly a yearly trade ????

Make up your mind
When the Joker is in the deck.. fear not and play it well
  • #412
  • Nov 12, 2013 8:26pm Nov 12, 2013 8:26pm
"It's a lot like life
This play between the sheets
With you on top and me underneath
Forget all about equality

Let's play master and servant
Let's play master and servant

It's a lot like life
And that's what's appealing
If you despise that throwaway feeling
From disposable fun
Then this is the one

Domination's the name of the game
In bed or in life
They're both just the same
Except in one you're fulfilled
At the end of the day"
When the Joker is in the deck.. fear not and play it well
  • #413
  • Edited 8:38pm Nov 12, 2013 8:27pm | Edited 8:38pm
Quoting vox dei
{quote} I can only agree with you assuming an account has unlimited funding, and we both know that's not possible. It is precisely because one can never tell the future, that one should always err on the side of caution (after all we're talking about trading with real money on the line here, are we not?), and assume that given enough time the worst case scenario will become reality. Leaving the position to run amok against, on the other hand, now that, the way I see it is suffering from the delusion one can tell the future by considering an impossibility...
It's a problem for people who don't know how to size their trades. Maybe too many people bet their whole account on any given speculation based on blah, blah 123 system or whatever. In that situation, yes use stops. Use stops in any situation where you have no control and where you are gambling. For people who know how to dance their trades, this is not an issue. If disaster strike one of my 20 trades, perhaps it will make several of my other trades go ballistic. In that case I will still have an account. But obviously if I have an asteroid strike on my house, and blows up everything, I guess I will have to accept fate and call it quits. Not much use trading if I am in charred bits. No I am not going to dig an asteroid shelter in my garden just in case.
  • #414
  • Nov 12, 2013 8:30pm Nov 12, 2013 8:30pm
Yeah, I finally started to make money consistently when I stopped using stops.

To do that though, I had to trade much smaller. Otherwise, I'd probably die of a heart attack watching the market.

Now, it can move 200 pips and oh well. No big deal.

When I was using stop losses, forex would move in my direction, but not before taking out my stops.

Ugh that got old quick.
  • #415
  • Nov 12, 2013 8:33pm Nov 12, 2013 8:33pm
Quoting Slim Buffett
{quote} Sadly, you didn't "give" me anything other than what seems like a lot of BS. {quote} And honestly; aren't you contradicting yourself ? Anyway, according to your past posts you should just let your great GBP trade run for a few more years. What's 100 pips? Hardly a yearly trade ???? Make up your mind
You either can't read or into fabrication. At no point did I state I run my profit for years. I am probably the most aggressive profit taker in this entire forum. The only reason I haven't taken the GBP is because I missed the best level which was probably at 150 pips because I over slept yesterday. Maybe it will go back to that level before I go to sleep.
  • #416
  • Nov 12, 2013 8:39pm Nov 12, 2013 8:39pm
Quoting Baggi
Yeah, I finally started to make money consistently when I stopped using stops. To do that though, I had to trade much smaller. Otherwise, I'd probably die of a heart attack watching the market. Now, it can move 200 pips and oh well. No big deal. .
So..... you'll likely make money in the long run.

Perhaps before you die of a heart attack due to old
age you'll have made enough for funeral expenses.

Congratulations.

(and even if that doesn't work out, the government is always there).
Right.
When the Joker is in the deck.. fear not and play it well
  • #417
  • Nov 12, 2013 8:57pm Nov 12, 2013 8:57pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} It's a problem for people who don't know how to size their trades. Maybe too many people bet their whole account on any given speculation based on blah, blah 123 system or whatever. In that situation, yes use stops. Use stops in any situation where you have no control where you are gambling. For people who know how to dance their trades, this is not an issue. If disaster strike one of my 20 trades, perhaps it will make several of my other trades go ballistic. In that case I will still have an account. But obviously if I have an asteroid...
Agreed that only by trading very small can anyone trade the way you've described. I respect your way of doing things, but your way has absolutely no appeal to me. You see, you still a have a wrong idea of what using a stop (limiting losses) is about. Limiting losses is not about gambling or having no control. Quite the contrary, if anything limiting losses gives a higher degree of risk control. Not going into more explanation though. Not selling you anything. People are free to believe whatever they want.

I wish you well in life and trading, goodnight
"To hold, you must first open your hand. Let go." - Lao Tzu
  • #418
  • Nov 12, 2013 9:05pm Nov 12, 2013 9:05pm
Dirty bank scums. They refused to give me 150 pips back. So took 97 GU, 26 EG, 48 GY, 86 GC. All profits on GBP clear out. I will put in orders to load up for the morning. Naturally, no stops.
  • #419
  • Nov 12, 2013 9:07pm Nov 12, 2013 9:07pm
Quoting vox dei
but your way has absolutely no appeal to me.
I have not given anyone my way. The argument was whether you and 2+2 can predict.
  • #420
  • Nov 12, 2013 9:13pm Nov 12, 2013 9:13pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
Dirty bank scums. They refused to give me 150 pips back.
Well here we go then

It's for you

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