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Sonic R. System

  • #48,641
  • Edited 5:02am May 11, 2013 4:49am | Edited 5:02am
Dollars ARE important - in fact its why 99% of us are here, to try to make some money.

Sonic's post #48,543 made me take a closer look and I can see that TAH has 6 UJ positions, currently showing -1081 pips, -161p, -141p, -109p, -75p & -39p a total of -1,586 pips at yesterday's close, which was right in the middle of the resistance zone on the weekly chart that I posted.

So, we trade to make some money and micro pips are for learning how MT4 works and experimenting with systems etc.....to make some money we need to trade either multiple mini lots ($1/pip) or standard lots at $10/pip. For an open, unprotected - no stop loss or hedge - current "investment" of $1,586 what should the "prudent" investor have in his account?

A good starting place is the old advice of "don't risk more than 5% on any one trade" - so for an "investment" / risk of $1,586 that would mean $31,720.......AND remember that this is a NAKED risk.....UJ could easily pop up another 178 pips on Monday to its next level on that monthly chart, even as a "blow off" top that then drops back as the expected fall begins......178x6 = $1068 + $1586 = $2,654 out of the $31,720 margin.....I hope we've not got too many of these type of trades open.....AND that we do have at minimum that margin level

So how much might we gain from the above - looking at TAH's average its ~100 pips per entry in each (multiple position) trade - so that's $600 on the current risk of $1586......

Other posters have touched on this subject - Sonic #48,543; nicoademia #48,546; Tymedu #48,602 & emmanuel7788 # 48,606 to mention a few, so why take any notice of me - well I've been there and some years ago helping trade a not dissimilar style for a wealthy friend (it was his system), got caught in a parabolic blow off of the FTSE 100 stock index. I took three $100K margin calls whilst my friend was on the beach somewhere in the Caribbean - it was a rather more expensive holiday than he expected, wiping out most of his account.

So, yes we keep account of our published performance via the number of pips made in each trade, BUT these pips MUST be viewed in relation to not only what our margin will allow us to safely trade, but also the LOT SIZE needed to make our time spent worth the effort and risk involved.

I must also say, that this is NOT intended as an attack on TAH, but as an ALERT to what is involved in trading his current "work in progress" system.
Trading Levels with WRBs
  • #48,642
  • May 11, 2013 4:49am May 11, 2013 4:49am
Quoting ArtfulDodger
{quote} EDIT: as an added note, adding entries to a PVSRA trade is NOT "adding to losing positions." "Adding to losing positions" is when you think a trade should go in one direction, and it goes in the opposite direction and you keep adding to it in hopes that it will turn around. When adding entries to a PVSRA trade, it is by DESIGN. You have determined that the MM's are building positions for a certain direction, and you are doing the same thing as them. You do this in smaller increments than you would with one trade only. And you continually...
i only learn sonic classic and scout are counter trend trades.
logically why trade against the market when we see it is counter trend, we just trade like sonicdeejay does show us in his posts.


adding so many positions and having huge drawdowns is not a good trading method as many forex coaches advises against


i read about vsa. but pvsra is strange way to guess if market is bull or bear
totally new so we need to see some real results with real account to study how it will work in real account trading so many trade paris open at one same time
  • #48,643
  • May 11, 2013 4:53am May 11, 2013 4:53am
Quoting ArtfulDodger
{quote} Sometimes "hard ball" is what the students need!

well this is a public forum and people are human being here
we are all grown up people from different countries, culture, religion, etc,
why tah treat people here like that?


to me he is a very bad teacher
not role model to any student wanting to learn
he cannot call people here lazy when they post and ask a repeated question
than is very bad to call people like that
  • #48,644
  • May 11, 2013 4:53am May 11, 2013 4:53am
Quoting ArtfulDodger
{quote} I guess I don't have an understanding of the margin required either then. The way I see it, what's the difference in having ONE trade at say 0.06 or having SIX trades (entries) at 0.01? Except for the fact that each added entry is progressively more valuable than the entry that preceded it. In my possibly mixed up mind, that's INGENIOUS! There is no greater margin required by either of the two choices, and in fact, the level of risk is DECREASED by trading with multiple entries that, as a whole, equal the same original targeted trade amount...
.06 at Spot vs .01x6 Spread Out

ArtfulDodger, you understand correctly. And other Sonicers, that have been building their credentials here, have discussed this very point. What is going on here is not really any valid argument against that fact that you, and others here understand. What is going on here is antagonistic posting by scum that no more have the interests of Sonicers, or the Sonic R. System at heart than the Devil has the interests of God at heart.

I only wish that Master Sonicdeejay would put an end to it.

-tah
  • #48,645
  • May 11, 2013 4:57am May 11, 2013 4:57am
Quoting jasakreatif
{quote} he is a coder , he know what him doing , coder will think mathematic , so i think he dont need to analyze chart to much everyday
He is a brilliant coder with engineering background..

Sonic
  • #48,646
  • Edited 5:34am May 11, 2013 5:00am | Edited 5:34am
Quoting traderathome
PVSRA Results for 1st Six Weeks The following are the results of my trading the Sonic R. System using PVSRA to determine if MMs are bulls or bears, and then trading the price action I see. Week ending 04/05 1289 pips gained, 7 trades totaling 19 parts (18 parts winners), and averaging 67+ pips per all parts. Week ending 04/12 1891 pips gained, 9 trades totaling 28 parts (all winners), averaging 67+ pips per all parts. Week ending 04/19 2160 pips gained, 9 trades totaling 31 parts (29 parts winners), averaging 69+ pips per all parts. Week ending...

Sir,

Good Trading..indeed...

I am also interested in your exit strategy on JPY pairs..if "it keeps rising".. are you gonna hold and gonna keep on adding? You are already in deep red.


Just like roller over thread (HERE), they keep on adding longs on mainly JPY pairs without SL as they believe in carry trade or other pairs and it gonna raise forever.. They add Long whenever the mkt get lower.. They were too making thousands of pips as the mkt moves back in their favour.. It was a great party there... At any time, the thread has 100+ viewers..

I was the one who raised red flags on this risky way of trading.HERE and HERE .many of them didn't listen and some did.. I didn't need to explained much. Mkt has this better way of explaining things. Carry trades collapse in end of 2008.. Tons of the followers lose big in their stacked, no SL positions and many of them left. The once almighty thread also ended up the "recycle bin" in this miserable stage.


I cannot let Sonic R follow the same path...


I too do the position buildings (as u can see from my trading record) but I will not want to have thousand pips draw down, to gain thousand pips gain.. I use my skill and patience to get tens of pip draw drawn to gain hundred pips..


I will be bz with my electrical related certification course next week... See ya..


Attached Image


Sonic
  • #48,647
  • May 11, 2013 5:03am May 11, 2013 5:03am
Quoting Islander
Dollars ARE important - in fact its why 99% of us are here, to try to make some money. Sonic's post #48,543 made me take a closer look and I can see that TAH has 6 UJ positions, currently showing -1081 pips, -161p, -141p, -109p, -75p & -39p a total of -1,586 pips at yesterday's close, which was right in the middle of the resistance zone on the weekly chart that I posted. So, we trade to make some money and micro pips are for learning how MT4 works and experimenting with systems etc.....to make some money we need to trade either multiple mini...

thank you islander


i an quite new trader and i understand what your message is about
i lost money in the week of march 11 2011 you may recall the japan tsunami week
i had many open positions that friday and that was horror week when i traded without sl protection


i dont think you attack tah but he is very sensitive when peoples views are different to his
i really hope he make change and treat other people better here
i quite like his experiment but somethings we learn not to do


thank you
  • #48,648
  • May 11, 2013 5:09am May 11, 2013 5:09am
Quoting sonicdeejay
{quote} Sir, Good Trading..indeed... I am also interested in your exit strategy on JPY pairs..if "it keeps rising".. are you gonna hold and gonna keep on adding? You are already in deep red. Just like roller over thread (HERE), they keep on adding longs on mainly JPY pairs without SL as they believe in carry trade or other pairs and it gonna raise forever.. They add Long whenever the mkt get lower.. They were too making thousands of pips as the mkt moves back in their favour.. It...


sonic sir


i agree with you and thank you for this reminder
i learn my lesson already in 2011 japan tsunami week


maybe tah and pvsra experiment should have another thread to prevent disaster happening to new innocent traders coming to learn sonicr system


will you start another thread for tah pvsra trading instead?
this will save many people from now onwards.
  • #48,649
  • Edited 5:27am May 11, 2013 5:14am | Edited 5:27am
Quoting sonicdeejay
{quote} Sir, Good Trading..indeed... I am also interested in your exit strategy on JPY pairs..if "it keeps rising".. are you gonna hold and gonna keep on adding? You are already in deep red. Just like roller over thread (HERE), they keep on adding longs on JPY pairs without SL as they believe in carry trade or other pairs and it gonna raise forever.. They add Long whenever the mkt get lower.. I was the one who raised red flags on this risky way of trading. HERE...
Sonic,

I shall add to my Prayer List that you do well in the course, and my best personal wishes go with you.

I understand and appreciate your concern regarding YEN pair trades, both for my own trades and for your concern that Sonicers always be guided to the safer pathway of trading. So, let me review something to help put your mind at ease.

Setting aside my own aggressive use of Scouts on the YEN pairs, I have heretofore stated several times this past week that I forsee using PVSRA (which is proving to be an exceptional analysis tool) to qualify Classic trades and supporting Scout trades. By "supporting" I imply that Scouts should be used only after a Classic trade is entered, and only if there follows a pullback, whipsaw, spike, etc., opposite the trade direction, and only while PVSRA continues to indcate the MMs are in the direction of the Classic, regardless of these subsequent price maneuvers. This actually relegates the Scout to supporting the Classic trade, and no more Scouts out in deep enemy territory all on their own.

Now, maybe before I did not make clear enough the point I have just repeated. So, there it is again. I am going to re-train your Scouts to no longer go off on their own, as you originally trained them to do, and as I have proliferated. Once they are re-trained, I do not want to ever again see you sending out a Scout, except as support for an open Classic trade! Got it?

As regards my GJ short trade, at the close I am down 3,995 pips, a little more than my profit for the week and a heck of a lot less than all the additional pips I have been making over these past weeks compared to what I used to make before PVSRA. So, it is no big deal.

Let me add, dear Master Sonicdeejay, that I have the utmost respect for you as a friend, as a family man, and as a trader. Out of respect, I listen with earnest to your admonitions. I do not ignore them or discount them. And you have my open invitation to continue with me in any manner that you deem appropriate.

May God Bless You,
-tah
  • #48,650
  • May 11, 2013 5:14am May 11, 2013 5:14am
Quoting vtayha
{quote} will you start another thread for tah pvsra trading instead? this will save many people from now onwards.

No need... I will be devastated if Sir TAH leave... and I do not see a reason for him to start new... He contributed too much here and he is a co-founder to me..

NO one can ever replace that..


I just want him to trade better by wait for better entry, stop adding position as if he don't care, educating other new sonikers on the danger of aggression stackings..

I think I am done explaining the potential "double edged" nature of the stacking positions..


Sonic
  • #48,651
  • May 11, 2013 5:21am May 11, 2013 5:21am
Quoting sonicdeejay
{quote} No need... I will be devastated if Sir TAH leave... and I do not see a reason for him to start new... He contributed too much here and he is a co-founder to me.. NO one can ever replace that.. I just want him to trade better by wait for better entry, stop adding position as if he don't care, educating other new sonikers on the danger of aggression stackings.. I think I am done explaining the potential "double edged" nature of the stacking positions.. Sonic
I

and no here
Smile, Breath, and Go slowly
  • #48,652
  • Edited 6:02am May 11, 2013 5:50am | Edited 6:02am
Okey, Let's Talk Money

Let's say I averaged 200 pips weekly before PVSRA. In six weeks that amounts to 1,200 pips. In the first six weeks of PVSRA I made 13,560 pips. Let's subtract my previous average of 1,200 pips and the PVSRA bonus is 12,360 pips! Let's also subtract my GJ and UJ trades, down 3,995 pips and 684 pips respectively at the close Friday. Subtracting these 4,679 pips as though I had closed the two YEN pair trades, from the PVSRA bonus of 12,360 pips these past six weeks, I would still be left with a bonus of 7681 pips for the six week, or 1,280 PVSRA bonus pips per week!

That means I can close out those pesky YEN trades at maximum loss and still have my 200 weekly average pips plus a weely PVSRA bonus of 1,260 pips weekly,.......an extra amount that is more than six times greater than my previous average!

What more needs to be said about money?

Those YEN pairs can still go higher, and I can still afford to add some more Scouts, and I will still be ahead of where I was even if I end up closing higher. Or, I can just sit on them and wait for the reversal and eventually really huge profits. I don't intend to add more, but to sit and wait for profits, which I can well afford to do.

-tah
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  • #48,653
  • Edited 6:20am May 11, 2013 5:51am | Edited 6:20am
Gents,

I will use UJ as nice presentation...


1. Last week candle W1 TF was "bullish candle" so that I would be take long this week than taking shorts..

2. Saw a nice double bottoming with healthy volume (see 2 white circles). But is it has not above Dragon or no bullish wave yet. So wait for a bullish candle to formed. Place a Buy Stop at slight above of the high with SL that is not so tight nor not too wide... EP1 is basically considered Scout. Sciout is like a test of water before the intended trend establishes. So, It normally comes before classic..

3. Mkt steadily rises and bullish waves (higher low) starts to show up. It get above dragon and opened Long.. SL is definitetly below last swing's low. EP2 is basically considered Classic

Mkt move further in the favour.. We shall ride further..

4. It is above dragon and we have very bullish bar appears, wait for it to formed and enter along with the trend wit slight tighter SL EP3 is basically considered Re-entry..

After all, TP1/2/3 are pace place below the last mkt swing low to protect profits if mkt retraces..


Sonic
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  • #48,654
  • Edited 6:08am May 11, 2013 5:57am | Edited 6:08am
Quoting sonicdeejay
{quote} No need... I will be devastated if Sir TAH leave... and I do not see a reason for him to start new... He contributed too much here and he is a co-founder to me.. NO one can ever replace that.. I just want him to trade better by wait for better entry, stop adding position as if he don't care, educating other new sonikers on the danger of aggression stackings.. I think I am done explaining the potential "double edged" nature of the stacking positions.. Sonic
Let's improve!

That's the key master, I would hate all of u if TAH leaves this thread because he is contributing way too much. He and Sonic change my "life" and my trading skills, and I will be ever thankful for that. PVSRA is an awesome tool with an awesome potential, that's a fact. I´m here in this thread since the last month, but I see TAH, Sonic, Islander, JRissa, etc as mates and I care about them.

What we are only trying to do now is to improve the building position method, just that. We have the classic entries working so well, even better with PVSRA, check. We have scouts working as well, and we use PVRSA to support them, check. Now, we have to improve the last part. And that is what we are trying here with this discussion. It's a fact that the current method needs to be improved because the drawdown sometimes is huge (even almost 5k pips). So, let's focus on this, let's focus about how to improve that.

One thing I´m observing about building positions is the first 1-2 entries. They are always too close from the TP when we close the positions and when we have 5+ entries. I guess this is psychology and as soon as we have all our orders in positive, we want to close them asap. Maybe we should rethink about the first entries. We know when the MM's are building shorts/longs but we also know they can do it for weeks. And some times we precipitate and we enter at the first sign we see the MM's building. What's the worst thing that will happen? If we miss the first 2 entries and they start to run profits, we enter with a classic entry.

And that happened to me, TAH, Dmitry and Islander I think (I´m just trying to remember). So let's pay more attention to the first entries. How can we do that? Looking higher TFs. Let's go to the daily chart or the weekly chart and let's find critical points where the MM's can start to run for profits. Let's think inverse, or at least let's try it. We know where the MM's are pointing and we start to add positions waiting for the moment they start to run for profits. Let's try to find the point where they can start it and let's start to build around there.

I'm completely sure the 50% of the drawdown would be removed if we pay more attention to the first 1-2-3 entries.

It's just an idea based on what I saw on my trades and yours guys. Let's improve this and stop the trash talk.

PS: I attach an example where we can see the important about rethinking the firsts entries

Tymedu.
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To fail is just an opportunity to learn
  • #48,655
  • May 11, 2013 6:10am May 11, 2013 6:10am
Quoting sonicdeejay
Gents, I will use UJ as nice presentation... 1. Last week candle W1 TF was "bullish candle" so that I would be take long this week than taking shorts.. 2. Saw a nice double bottoming with healthy volume (see 2 white circles). But is it has not above Dragon or no bullish wave yet. So wait for a bullish candle to formed. Place a Buy Stop at slight above of the high with SL that is not so tight nor not too wide... EP1 is basically considered Scout. Sciout is like a test of water before the intended trend establishes. So, It normally comes before...

that's the way I see the use of your system too.....and one might use the 5m for the Scout entry with limited risk, only adding when / if confirmed by the 15m.....Monday will be interesting......enjoy your weekend
Trading Levels with WRBs
  • #48,656
  • May 11, 2013 6:10am May 11, 2013 6:10am
Quoting sonicdeejay
Gents, I will use UJ as nice presentation... 1. Last week candle W1 TF was "bullish candle" so that I would be take long this week than taking shorts.. 2. Saw a nice double bottoming with healthy volume (see 2 white circles). But is it has not above Dragon or no bullish wave yet. So wait for a bullish candle to formed. Place a Buy Stop at slight above of the high with SL that is not so tight nor not too wide... EP1 is basically considered Scout. Sciout is like a test of water before the intended trend establishes. So, It normally comes before...
The Master Doing What He Does Best.....

Dang! Sonic, that is a grrrrrreeeeeeaaaaaat post!

So, you see the difference? You sent in a Scout before the Classic. My intent has been to relegate Scouts to supporting Classics, which in this case would mean the Classic entry becomes EP1, and later when the MMs pulled the price back towards previous lows, and with PVSRA still showing them to be bulls, the Scout entry (becomes EP2) would be made, and even lower entry than the one you show. The result is a better Scout price and also knowing better that the MMs are bulls when you send in the supporting Scout.


-tah
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  • #48,657
  • May 11, 2013 6:25am May 11, 2013 6:25am
Quoting Tymedu
{quote} Let's improve! That's the key master, I would hate all of u if TAH leaves this thread because he is contributing way too much. He and Sonic change my "life" and my trading skills, and I will be ever thankful for that. PVSRA is an awesome tool with an awesome potential, that's a fact. I´m here in this thread since the last month, but I see TAH, Sonic, Islander, JRissa, etc as mates and I care about them. What we are only trying to do now is to improve the building position method, just that. We have the classic entries working so well,...
Love It!

Tymedu,

You are a constructive Sonicer. You just presented a plan, some steps, clear and reasoned. And the focus is to not send in Scouts just because the MMs show up as bulls or bears. Rather, to look for a significant S&R breakout level that might be logical for a run for profits to begin, and to be waiting for a Classic setup for such a breakout,.....knowledge and patience.

Way to go, Tymedu!
  • #48,658
  • May 11, 2013 6:27am May 11, 2013 6:27am
I really don't understand why you guys counting the outside capital here. Have you already forgotten what is the most important thing in forex? MONEY MANAGEMENT. And who's job is this? Every traders job. Not TAH's job like many traders are thinking here.

TAH is just teaching another trading method here. It is not TAH's job to teach the first principles of the trading. First principles of the trading is like ABC learning and who's job is this? Everyone's job.

So stop blaming other trader because you are lazy and don't bother to read other materials more than this thread here.

I started trading only with 50$ and micro lots. About month ago. And I was following TAH's method. Today I have 272€ on my account. I don't care about drawdown or something else, because I have made my money management and I know exactly how many trades I'm able to take and how big losses I can allow.

So guys, everything is possible Just learn the first principles of the trading and you will be a good trader.
Whatever is obvious is obviously wrong!"
  • #48,659
  • May 11, 2013 6:47am May 11, 2013 6:47am
Quoting loeil
I really don't understand why you guys counting the outside capital here. Have you already forgotten what is the most important thing in forex? MONEY MANAGEMENT. And who's job is this? Every traders job. Not TAH's job like many traders are thinking here. TAH is just teaching another trading method here. It is not TAH's job to teach the first principles of the trading. First principles of the trading is like ABC learning and who's job is this? Everyone's job. So stop blaming other trader because you are lazy and don't bother to read other materials...
Totally agree loeil.

Now, why don't you make a post about money management? I know it sounds silly, but it will help a lot of newbies and not newbies. To go from 50€ to 272€ is just awesome. Of course I´m not encouraging you to publish quantities in $/€, but tell us ur plan. With how much do you enter in every position to handle the drawdowns? Do you have a spreadsheet or something where you calculate with how much money do you enter? Etc etc. I'm really interesting about that and I think your success can help me and other guys to improve. So please, share!
To fail is just an opportunity to learn
  • #48,660
  • May 11, 2013 7:22am May 11, 2013 7:22am
Quoting vtayha
{quote}pvsra is strange way to guess if market is bull or bear
He isn't basing it on guesses
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