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MB Trading Futures - Introduction

  • #10,201
  • Apr 11, 2013 2:17pm Apr 11, 2013 2:17pm
Quoting BroncoCap
.... splitting of their trader base between PFL and Free-EXN as detrimental to their success.
I agree this is detrimental to traders... there often just isn't another customer order to hit with the book divided the way it is now... If customer liquidity was shared between plans.. all in one pool... the situation would be somewhat improved. Justin has previously said in this thread that this could change in the future... Lets hope it does.

Quoting BroncoCap
Sadly, most forex in US has fallen under the same decay due to ridiculous regulations....
The US regulators have run so much competition out of the US market that I believe this is the root of the increased spreads, or an even better way to think about it is increased per trade cost.

MB is a business. It's in its interest to charge as much as its traffic will bare. Oanda has raised its average spread (using EURUSD as a standard) and obfuscated the fact with "variable spreads".

I think MB upped their price as much as they thought possible when looking across the ever dwindling competitors left to serve the US customer base.

MB is still a good broker for small accounts, they are just not the value proposition they once were.
  • #10,202
  • Apr 11, 2013 3:10pm Apr 11, 2013 3:10pm
How could MBT raise spreads if they are STP. To me it looks like they have way less LPs than a few years ago. Now its just a few line of depth and often <10M in the book on each side. Used to be way deeper, 30M and more. I guess its just fewer LPs than previously, hence wider spreads.
  • #10,203
  • Apr 11, 2013 3:29pm Apr 11, 2013 3:29pm
Quoting shrike
How could MBT raise spreads if they are STP. To me it looks like they have way less LPs than a few years ago. Now its just a few line of depth and often <10M in the book on each side. Used to be way deeper, 30M and more. I guess its just fewer LPs than previously, hence wider spreads.
Agreed 100%

That is ultimately what Crassius and I said. No in-house liquidity = wider spreads (and fewer limit fills). I zoomed the daily EURUSD back even further and saw similar drops in 'volume' (desktop pro) suggesting the split to PFL+EXN is not the only time they have experienced these artifacts of different players in their market place.

Also important to note is that with PFL commissions, the Free EXN is generally = in total trade cost compared to market order trades on PFL. The fact that there is only 0.1 to 0.2 difference in the spread suggests either MBT is fine with razor thin payments in EXN or that EXN liquidity providers are providing tighter spreads (which would be a slap in the face to PFL accts).

Per fxintel.com (you mileage may vary)--
Attached Image


if you include $2.50/100k commission, equivalent spreads look like--
Attached Image


Boo!
  • #10,204
  • Apr 12, 2013 2:34am Apr 12, 2013 2:34am
Quoting shrike
How could MBT raise spreads if they are STP. To me it looks like they have way less LPs than a few years ago. Now its just a few line of depth and often <10M in the book on each side. Used to be way deeper, 30M and more. I guess its just fewer LPs than previously, hence wider spreads.
being a STP has nothing to do if a broker can raise spreads or not
  • #10,205
  • Apr 12, 2013 8:45am Apr 12, 2013 8:45am
Quoting dforant1
The problem with Forums is many posters post info that's not substantiated. There is nothing better than the facts. If one can't back it up don't say it. We have better things to do also than to read unsubstantiated posts. Thanks finally for some facts. Now folks like myself can determine whether MBtraders Pay for Limits fits their needs. I chose their EXN offer 2 weeks ago.

Just FYI, you didn't "choose" their "EXN". You choose their FREE EXN spread/commission plan. Both of their spread offerings use the EXN. The FREE EXN plan just means that their mark-up is built into the spread and that you don't get paid for Limit orders.
  • #10,206
  • Apr 12, 2013 8:57am Apr 12, 2013 8:57am
Quoting BroncoCap
Agreed 100% That is ultimately what Crassius and I said. No in-house liquidity = wider spreads (and fewer limit fills). I zoomed the daily EURUSD back even further and saw similar drops in 'volume' (desktop pro) suggesting the split to PFL+EXN is not the only time they have experienced these artifacts of different players in their market place. Also important to note is that with PFL commissions, the Free EXN is generally = in total trade cost compared to market order trades on PFL. The fact that there is only 0.1 to 0.2 difference in the spread...
I suspect that if there is a difference in the spreads as small as suggested, it is, as you said, mostly because of the lack of traders. We know that trade volume in Forex has dropped sharply across the board. Some of it is due to regulation, but there are other factors.

The charts you show with the PFL comm added is a little deceiving. It is only adding the paid commission. The PFL plan is beneficial to someone that uses a lot of Limit orders. That chart would change a lot if you could reflect the percentage of your trades that were limits. For example, if you go to 50/50, the math is quite different.

Justin said a long time ago that the FREE EXN plan had tighter raw spreads because they only let certain providers into it and demanded that they competed more for the customer orders by requiring a narrower spread, so your comment that it would be a slap in the face to PFL accounts is actually exactly what they said up front. They created FREE EXN for customers that still didn't like the idea of FX with commissions, but they knew that they didn't want wider spreads because that is always the comparison. It's simply two different business models because some people get the PFL side and some people just don't like to hear the word commissions in the world of FX.

I don't think they could ever let the customer orders on the two plans meet. Given the way algo trading goes, someone would post a bid with a PFL account and hit it with a FREE EXN account. The net of the trade would be a wash, but the net of the commission would be no charge on the FREE EXN account and a payment to the PFL account. Doesn't even matter what price they reversed the position at...they would just make money all day. The only way to do that would be to tell the PFL accounts that they don't get paid for limits if they get hit by a FREE EXN customer. That's just too complicated for them to try, I think.
  • #10,207
  • Apr 12, 2013 12:51pm Apr 12, 2013 12:51pm
Quoting IndyTrader
Just FYI, you didn't "choose" their "EXN". You choose their FREE EXN spread/commission plan. Both of their spread offerings use the EXN. The FREE EXN plan just means that their mark-up is built into the spread and that you don't get paid for Limit orders.
Good points. I left Oanda because they are becoming less friendly with
certain types of traders. It only takes a little trading time moving to a
new Broker if planned correctly. I'm saving $$ trading with MB plus have
some peace of mind from all the O gossip going on. I trade much better than
dealing with Brokers. MB was a time consuming challenge getting on board
and dealing with their funding and withdrawal system. Most of it my fault.
At first everything works at a snails pace over there. Then very smooth. I
follow these Forums looking for the best Broker suited to my needs. Thanks
for your input.
  • #10,208
  • Apr 12, 2013 1:09pm Apr 12, 2013 1:09pm
I am new to Forex trading. Started trading live this week with MB Trading FREE EXN. I experienced two issue - slippage and split fills.

Slippage - upto 1 PIP in all stop market orders. I trade USD/JPY between 8-11 om US EST (Asian session).

Split Fills - trade 1 micro lot ($10000). Was filled in three lots.

Called MB Trading. CSR told me that 1-3 PIP slippage is normal with market orders. Is it true? He also told me that split fills were due to low liquidity. Is this true? Is $10000 order size is too big to be filled in one go?

I would appreciate your comments. Thanks.
  • #10,209
  • Apr 12, 2013 1:29pm Apr 12, 2013 1:29pm
Quoting dforant1
Good points. I left Oanda because they are becoming less friendly with certain types of traders. It only takes a little trading time moving to a new Broker if planned correctly. I'm saving $$ trading with MB plus have some peace of mind from all the O gossip going on. I trade much better than dealing with Brokers.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by O(anda) gossip either here or via PM (I tried to send you a message but PMs are not enabled).
  • #10,210
  • Apr 12, 2013 4:02pm Apr 12, 2013 4:02pm
hey guys does mb work on ninja and if anyone is using it on there can they share experience ? im trying fxcm but it is total garbage
  • #10,211
  • Apr 12, 2013 5:56pm Apr 12, 2013 5:56pm
Quoting benrock
hey guys does mb work on ninja and if anyone is using it on there can they share experience ? im trying fxcm but it is total garbage
Search this tread for posts by Cassius, he has explained it more than once.
  • #10,212
  • Edited 10:31pm Apr 12, 2013 10:20pm | Edited 10:31pm
Quoting macrophage
I am new to Forex trading. Started trading live this week with MB Trading FREE EXN. I experienced two issue - slippage and split fills. Slippage - upto 1 PIP in all stop market orders. I trade USD/JPY between 8-11 om US EST (Asian session). Split Fills - trade 1 micro lot ($10000). Was filled in three lots. Called MB Trading. CSR told me that 1-3 PIP slippage is normal with market orders. Is it true? He also told me that split fills were due to low liquidity. Is this true? Is $10000 order size is too big to be filled in one go? I would appreciate...

MB offers many different order types, some of which are designed to give you control over slippage, or eliminate it altogether. Its one of the great things about MB....

You say you got slipped one pip, which wouldn't be surprising with a market order, which does not control for slippage at all... but I wonder if you really just are looking at the spread, and not slippage.

If you are short, and your chart is charting the Bid, to get out with a market order you have to buy at the ask.... which is going to be about 1 pip higher than your chart is charting... because you are charting the bid, but asking to trade at the market ask price. Is it possible that is where the 1 pip came from? Its a common misunderstanding of new traders.

You would be making a wise investment to take the time to watch the recorded seminars MB gives explaining order types, at a minimum. They have on-going live webinars as well, where you can ask questions. You'll learn about the order types MB offers, and how they can control slippage, among other things. Not learning this information is like intentionally blinding yourself.

As far as partial fills.... your order is first matched against any Mb customers that have the best price then it goes out to the bank (or other liquidity provider) that has the besy available price... but there might not be a single customer order for exactly 10000 at the moment you trade to match your order against..... In that case, you get filled at the best available price in how ever many fills it takes to fill you up.... but you are always getting the best available price.

Lets say you wanted to trade 10000 at market and two MB customers had resting orders at the best available price (bid or ask depending which way your trade is going) ... one customer wants to trade 1000, so you get filled by his available 1000.... another customer has an order for 3000, so you get filled with his three thousand in a second fill... the last 6000 to get you filled up comes from a banks resting liquidity.

It comes out on your end as three fills, but its the first 10000 available at market that got you filled up.

MB offers you much greater control over your trades than most retail FX brokers....but you need to invest the time to learn all that they offer....
  • #10,213
  • Apr 12, 2013 10:25pm Apr 12, 2013 10:25pm
Quoting benrock
hey guys does mb work on ninja and if anyone is using it on there can they share experience ? im trying fxcm but it is total garbage

Yes Ninja works on MB in conjunction with a special version of DeskTop.

You need to start here and follow the directions... especially regarding which version of DeskTop you have installed.

You should be all set, with this link, and questions answered over on the NinjaTrader support site.

If you have any trouble just PM me.

http://www.ninjatrader.com/Connectio...tion-Guide.php
  • #10,214
  • Apr 13, 2013 8:13am Apr 13, 2013 8:13am
Why so much discussion on this topic? With only 30% of customer accounts profitable does it really matter who you choose and what the liquidity is like at any given moment?

The 30% figure holds true at almost all brokers / bucket shops!

Brokers are required to track account profitability and will provide you the stats upon request.
Not trying to be a negative person but in the final analysis 70% will blow out and move on to hopefully less expensive "hobbies" regardless of broker / platform choice.

http://forexmagnates.com/q4-2012-for...-and-accounts/
  • #10,215
  • Apr 13, 2013 8:37am Apr 13, 2013 8:37am
Crassius, thanks for the detailed rely. Really appreciate putting everything in perspective.

1. It was slippage, not spread. Here is the data

19:37:55 Sell Short 10000 USD/JPY Stop 99.65 Market on MBTX [expiring: 7/11/2013] (10000 traded at 99.6294)
19:47:25 Sold Short 2000 USD/JPY at 99.641 19:47:26 Sold Short 2000 USD/JPY at 99.637 19:47:27 Sold Short 6000 USD/JPY at 99.623
First sub-lot was filled with slippage of 0.9 pips
Second sub-lot was filled with a slippage of 1.3 pips
Third sub-lot was filled with a slippage of 2.7 pips

Here is second trade.

20:58:17 USD/JPY Stop Market Sell Short 10,000 Filled Sell Short 10000 USD/JPY Stop 99.608 Market on MBTX [expiring: 7/11/2013] (10000 traded at 99.6001) 20:58:17 USD/JPY

10,000 Session Open GTC session open 21:01:45 USD/JPY
Sell Short 1,000 Executed Sold Short 1000 USD/JPY at 99.601 21:01:46 USD/JPY
Sell Short 9,000 Executed Sold Short 9000 USD/JPY at 99.60
I am beginning with 10000 mini lot, and will gradually move to std lot. Based on this experience, MBT will fill a std lot order in may 20-30 sub-lots. That would be disastrous. My concern is not HOW the order was filled, but is this spli-fill VERY FREQUENT with MBT.

These orders were for directional trade. Chart pattern was pointing to fall in price so I put the stop market order 0.5 pips below the low of previous bar. I understand that limit order will not suffer from negative slippage but cannot imagine how to use limit sell order here. Is there a way to place limit order in the direction of price movement? My understanding is that limit orders work to fade the price movement. I will really appreciate if you could comment on this.
  • #10,216
  • Apr 16, 2013 12:08pm Apr 16, 2013 12:08pm
Quoting mediaboy
Why so much discussion on this topic? With only 30% of customer accounts profitable does it really matter who you choose and what the liquidity is like at any given moment? The 30% figure holds true at almost all brokers / bucket shops! Brokers are required to track account profitability and will provide you the stats upon request. Not trying to be a negative person but in the final analysis 70% will blow out and move on to hopefully less expensive "hobbies" regardless of broker / platform choice. http://forexmagnates.com/q4-2012-for...-and-accounts/...
OMG, you really need to learn a little. Here's a reality of ALL markets. Less than 10% of traders make money in the long run (not month to month...who the hell cares about what a broker's customers do in a month? What genius came up with that as a snapshot of something important?). Most people don't have the brains, money, or mental attitude to do it, and it doesn't matter what they trade. You realize that when you say that a broker only has 30% profitable customers in a month...it could just be that they have dumb customers, right?

There is no real difference between the percentage of customers that are profitable over time based on the broker as long as the broker is properly regulated and audited by an agency that makes sure they aren't just stealing customer money through executions.

The reason Forex is appealing is because the leverage makes it much more interesting from a gambling mentality. Do you really think most people truly think they are going to turn their $500 into $100,000? But you might win the lottery too, right? Here's a shocker you might not be aware of as well: Most people don't make money in Vegas. Doesn't seem to stop them from going, does it? Maybe we should force cities to report what percentage of cash in your wallet you have left after a weekend. When Vegas is at the bottom of the list, does that mean people won't go?

Now, having said that, let's say 10-20% of people trading Forex actually take it seriously and don't just roll the dice on a trade with a piece of their paycheck every two weeks. Those people might care a bit about how their broker operates and how to use their platform.

I run a decent-sized hedge fund and I did a lot of research 18 months ago or so on brokers to pick the one that I thought would be best for us when we added FX to our mix. After narrowing it down to a couple, I chose MB Trading and have been happy ever since. We don't run hyper-active trading algorithms, so I can't speak to whether you can get perfect fills running 50 trades a minute, but we do run many trades a day and I find their order types to be perfect for our needs and the executions are solid. And as a side bonus, they aren't in Cyprus, where, last I checked, well, it doesn't matter how good a trader you are or if the broker shows that 40% of their traders made money in a month if they are never going to give you back your money.

To the person that was just posting about slippage...stop using MT4. Use Stop-Limit orders for entry on the Desktop Pro platform and you won't find better executions anywhere. But please just stop with the junk about how no one makes money in this so it doesn't matter. If you are on that side of that converstion, then the only person posting that doesn't need to...is you.
  • #10,217
  • Apr 16, 2013 7:01pm Apr 16, 2013 7:01pm
I concur.. don't think it is a good idea to run certain trades over MT4...... great charting platform though....
  • #10,218
  • Apr 18, 2013 2:31am Apr 18, 2013 2:31am
Quoting fxreporter
OMG, you really need to learn a little. Here's a reality of ALL markets. Less than 10% of traders make money in the long run (not month to month...who the hell cares about what a broker's customers do in a month? What genius came up with that as a snapshot of something important?). Most people don't have the brains, money, or mental attitude to do it, and it doesn't matter what they trade. You realize that when you say that a broker only has 30% profitable customers in a month...it could just be that they have dumb customers, right? There is...
Amen. The sad thing is that most people that could be serious about making money never will understand your post.
  • #10,219
  • Apr 23, 2013 4:29am Apr 23, 2013 4:29am
Does anyone trade options with MBT? Any feedback?
"Everyone gets what they want out of the market." -- Ed Seykota
  • #10,220
  • Apr 23, 2013 11:10am Apr 23, 2013 11:10am
Quoting fxreporter
{quote} OMG, you really need to learn a little. Here's a reality of ALL markets. Less than 10% of traders make money in the long run (not month to month...who the hell cares about what a broker's customers do in a month? What genius came up with that as a snapshot of something important?). Most people don't have the brains, money, or mental attitude to do it, and it doesn't matter what they trade. You realize that when you say that a broker only has 30% profitable customers in a month...it could just be that they have dumb customers, right?...
Very good post!
This forum needs more members like this. And these members should post more often.

On a different note...why is this thread in the "Commercial Content" section? Shouldn't it be in the "Broker Discussion" section? Wasn't it before? WTF?
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