Why you suck at trading

Thanks for such a great thread.

Things you're writing are sooooo true!

A lot to learn here for all traders ... even the most experienced ...

FerruFx

LEARN HOW IT WORKS!

Believe it or not, once you enter a trade... you can actually still do a few things to put the odds of making money (and more importantly, not losing money) in your favor.

And you can do it even if your trade ends up stopping out.

For me... i've found i'm pretty good these days and picking market turning points. But, i can still get the magnitude of the turn wrong quite often

i think it'll reverse for 40, it goes 100.
i think 60, it barely gets 23...etc

But after doing some review of my trading statistics (see you suck because you don't review post above), I realized that on a lot of my trades...if I got it even a little bit right, I usually got 20-25 pips of profit on them, before they would reverse and stop out later.

in other words, most of my losing trades were never more than 15-18 pips in profit at most before dropping to stop out (and many never got even 10 pips)... but, lots of my trades DID go about 20-25... but some of those would end up stopping out as well.

So, i decided that on most of my trade setups, I will look to put myself in a "risk free" trade as soon as I get between 15 pips and 25 pips of profit.

The way I personally do it, is take 1/4 - 1/2 the trade off at around 20ish pips., and then move a stop NOT to my entry price, but to a price that, if stopped out, will create a break even trade over all.

so, if I take half off at 20 pips of profit, I move a stop to 18 or 19 pips behind my entry price.

you see... this way, i may get 100 pips, i may get stopped out...

but ya know what? I WON'T LOSE! AND, I still give the trade plenty of "wiggle room"

how many of you get in a trade, see it start to go your way, get 1/3 or 1/2 the way to your target, only to end up sliding back and stopping out for a loss?

if you raised your hand, you probably suck at trading.

trading is about acting on the best information possible at all times, and simultaniously being obsessive about protecting your capital.

as long as I get about 20 pips on a trade, even if my stop is 50 and my target 100... I now know that It is impossible for me to lose money on that trade.

and i'll get 15-20 pips at least...on about 80%+ of my trades. maybe even more. maybe 85%. (will have to go back and research this at some point, because I don't suck at trade review)

this way, i could be basically totally wrong on the trade over all, yet manage to make a pip or 2 on it, or at very least lose no money.

find ways to improve your RR and your odds of NOT losing money at every single stage of the game.

The day you find a way to not lose money on some (or even most) of your trades that never make it to your target price is the day you will not suck as much at trading.

X

Here's an interesting Jim Rogers quote, this is the reason him and others like him don't suck, sorry nothing to do with finding trades that 'can't lose'!

"Every trader must come to terms with losing, because all traders lose. In fact, most traders lose most of the time. It`s the bottom line that counts - winning more than you lose. But since losses are unavoidable one other primary principle is to limit your losses."-Jim Rogers

Coincidently George Soros said something similar "It's not whether you're right or wrong that's important, but how much money you make when you're right and how much you lose when you're wrong."



Do you really think Boston Technologies are the only people to write things like Virtual Dealer or that MT4 brokers are the only ones to use such software? Sorry that's naive.


While there are some obvious things to look out for it's not easy to find the best broker to suit your own personal trading requirements, sometimes the only way is to see how they perform in real time. What might on the face of it be a good deal and a good broker can turn into a nightmare when trading live!


You're offering a lot of advice about not sucking at trading, some of it quite naive and misleading, no offence but are you actually a consistently profitable trader yourself?

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markets move by order being executed at market, and are filled by on opposing limit order. when the limit orders run out at a price point, but at least 1 additional market order is executed, the next price level will be the traded price, and your chart will move by some increment.

this will continue until either no trader is willing to execute a market order at that price point in the current direction of price momentum, and a "standoff" takes place between buyers and sellers until someone else executes an order at market, which creates another movement on your chart.

this continues all day long, as price moves up and down until "selling/buying" exhaustion takes place. that is, limit orders are pending on the offer, but no willing buyer is willing to take that price with a "market order". then, if no one will buy, then someone evetually will hit the bid with a market SELL order instead, and price will start to drop down. usually, this is at a price where either the market has moved too far too quickly, and there simply is a momentary lack of interest to buy at a higher price...or because price has come into a cluster of limit sell orders taht is large enough to absorb all buyers... (or both, they are actually essentially nearly identical to one another)

it then will start to move back down as momentum shifts, and then picks up more as the "trend is now shifting"... etc..etc..

furthermore, large speculators sell at tops, and buy on drops. they may be trading with the trend (many do in fact), but the are still selling pullbacks and covering on big drops, most of the time anyway. Commercial interests are using the market to hedge their need for a particular currency for their business to be conducted (think banks with loans abroad, or corporate entities with lenders abroad), and of course retail specs are doing their thing too.

some are making decisions based on capital requirements for a future date. Others are basing it on price reaching previous daily/weekly/monthly/swing highs and lows. some on underlying concerns or interests in fundamental shifts in the marketplace. and some still are taking a contrarian approach, and buying a market that is, to them, oversold, or to them, overbought.

And this probably covers about 85%-95% of market participants, how markets actually move, and what info people use to place those orders that move or hold the markets.

So.... tell me... what the F does your "magic moving average cross over with RSI confirmation system" have ANYTHING to do with ANY of what I just listed above?

I mean... wow. geez. it's got to be some of the most hair brained stuff i've ever seen traders that suck try to use.

If fact, i'll go so far as to dare anyone to show me a single moving average cross over system, that traded based on anything lower than a daily time frame, and ever had success in 5 or more forex markets over the last 10 years.

throw in a macd, an RSI, stochastics, etc... go ahead, put them all in the bag. now. someone, show me ANY system that uses them for timing a market... and show me a backtest (or actual results) of that being successful on anything less than the daily time frame, for 5 forex markets (the majors/crosses/comdolls, no exotics) over the last 5 years even.

these things fail because they have absolutly nothing to do with the markets! Seriously, what in the world could have possibly made you believe that somehow, this type of thing had ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE MARKETS AT ALL!!!

its like saying "oh, i got pregnant because of the full moon!"

no. it's because you had sex without birth control. your cycle may change like the moon cycles do...but that's about where the connection ENDS.

and, moving averages of varying time period calculations can and do cross over each other with price changes! but that's about all they do.

Now, i'm not saying the 200 daily MA is useless. no. there are effective ways to use this as one factor in a trading strategy that will help increase your success.

but buying or selling on a "cross over" is NOT one of them

the POSSIBLE EXCEPTION is if you use something like this to trade daily (or really, weekly/monthly time frames) because then you can catch a longer term fundamental economic trend.

It's because fundamental market drivers can trend for long, long times. think of the real estate boom... about 5 years.

or the value of the yen to the dollar... the US runs deficits, Japan runs surpluses...and the very nature of the fabric of their economic engines make it a long standing trend.

so, the yen gains in value to the dollar.

or fiat money continues to devalue in absolute terms... doubt me? go back to the year nixon took the US off the gold standard (mid early 70s).

now, check the price of gold in 5 year increments. it's higher every 5 years, and your moving average cross over would have done fine here. but it's again because of underlying FUNDAMENTAL drivers, not your stupid magic system.

the day that car accidents occur because I have a dream about carpet, or the day that amazon.com accepts payment in toenail clippings instead of electronic forms of currency, is the same that that your RSI/MACD/MA cross over "system" will suddenly become a direct interpretation of subtle value change in the market, and will then be able to consistently make you money for life baby!

SO, you wait for THAT day and continue to suck at trading in the meantime. Or, you throw this crap out, and decide to base your method on something that actually has some sort of direct effect in how or why the markets move!

P.S. Don't post up "you just don't know how to use them then stoopidface!!!" I know, confirmation does work for some, and to determine trend strength, etc, is also viable for others...etc. But, i'm talking about the bozo trader who sucks and uses an MA cross over or RSI whatever EXCLUSIVELY, on anything less than a daily chart, without considering fundies, sentiment, quality of signal, movement of market since retracement, SR levels, etc.

well, you'll have to take that up with rogers, because he also said in an interview: "I don't like to say this kind of think - i make very few mistakes. i learned quickly not to do anything unless you know what your doing.... it is better to do nothing and wait until you get a concept so right and a price so right, that even if you are wrong, it's not going to hurt you"

interviewer: "did you have a losing year after that point?"

rogers "no"

in a seperate part of the same interview he says: "I just wait until there is money lying in the corner, and all I have to do is go over and pick it up"

so... your actually addressing an entirely seperate point, and just because I haven't addressed it yet, doesn't invalidate the points I have made.

What makes you think I said that only MT4 software does this? I only said that if your broker requires you to use MT4 (and provides no other alternative)... .it is best to consider taking your business elsewhere. Citibank I have heard will let you use MT4... but, they also have alternative platforms for their "institutional" clients (defined 50K and above I believe). I would feel much more comfortable with such a broker, and would be inclined to speculate that they don't abuse clients like many of the popular or worse, lesser known MT4 only "deposit $100 and lets go!" brokers.

Again, that's pure speculation on my part as I have not ever opened an account with citi to trade with... but regardless, the point of "good brokers tend to be good in many ways, including offering a variety of platforms and/or high quality platforms from which to choose from, while lesser brokers tend to offer platforms/other benefits that are more about a short view of serving themselves, rather than a long view of serving the clients"

And why didn't you bring up my reference to futures brokers, which by law can do nothing of the kind? this is an EXCELLENT alternative to all such market game playing/manipulation/high spreads, etc. but, you failed to recognize that this is, in fact, a very good alternative to the rest (but, not the only one)

you put words in my mouth here that I never said, and on the other hand failed to recognize what I did say that is completely valid. I'm getting the feeling that you have certain expectations of what this thread should be... and I'm going to speculate that those expectations are a projection of what you personally needed to find your "eureka" moment.

I'm fairly sure what you feel I should be posting has a good deal of validity to it, and would be helpful to folks.

but you seem to want to butt heads a bit... which is actually pretty clear considering you seemed to miss the details in my statement about brokers and MT4...and took a very broad and partially very incorrect interpretation of that statement.

again, I never said that "as long as you find a good value on the front end, your set!"

I said "if you can't find a good value, then you probably won't have much chance to be successful"

I'm somewhat surprised to see you actually fixating on points that I don't make, and trying to use those "not-statements" of mine to dismiss any value in the points that I DO make

I find people tend towards this type of behavior when they feel a somewhat strong emotion of opposition towards an idea/person/entity/etc.

yet would prefer not to (for whatever reason) to recognize that just because their concern or paradigm isn't being addressed or recognized as they would like, it doesn't mean what is being address is of any less value.

It's a bit of a myopic view, and it is actually incorrect (considering I never said what you are point out)

Though, i'll give you credit on the Rogers/Soros quotes... and I agree 100%. But, that was NOT the point I was trying to make. I plan to, over the course of this thread, to cover many points.

The point I was trying to make was several fold, and although none of which covered taking losses well, they also are no less valid points.

yet your pretty quickly assuming I, and others, are already done with every point that the collective interests that may post on this thread are going to make. yet the thread is not locked, nor is it inactive.

I recognize that what you may have needed is not what your seeing here. But as some who read douglass's book years ago, I will tell you I greatly enjoyed and apprecitead it...but I didn't learn much from it that I already knew.

My own personal weaknesses were not so much about accepting the concept of an edge, and expectency, and executing ones edge without fail... mine were elsewhere... but many of which were mechanical, and I was really never able to move on to the other issues until I had the mechanics down.

And yet as I make this statement, I feel you will find another point douglas made, and choose to bring that up on "why I missed the point of the book"

Look, i'm glad you love trading in the zone. And i'm sincere when I say "Good for You!"

feel free to make a well thought out, or at least informative post about what helped you personally not suck as a trader. I'm sure I'll get something from it, as will many others here.

But don't make assumptions or put words in my mouth that I never said, nor intended...nevermind use those mistaken assumptions to take your arguement a step closer to a personal insult by questioning my own success (or lackthereof), and state that the advice I am giving is misleading and naieve, when you've failed to make a single concrete, valid point of why this is your opinon.

to answer your question in a word. Yes. I made a good return for the last couple years, and this year I am up about 30%. it's not exceptional, I know that, and I have my own self work that I am conducting (see my other thread). If you want something more as proof, feel free to check my trade explorer. it's a very tiny account, that I use to "model" after my primary account. and yes, although very small, it's real money, not demo money.

It's also new, set up primarily to help me for personal reasons as I have recently engaged in a new direction of developing my own trading.

while the results have been both short, and a little volitile, they are all positive (approx. 14% in 5 weeks) and all done with real money.

I don't see you offer any proof of any "success". Not that you, me or ANYONE here needs to, as it's their own business. But if I am to be held to a standard of qualifying my own credibility in my statements by in fact "walking the walk"... then you and any other who takes it upon themselves to point out the flaws or incorrect assertations I make should be held to the same standard.

otherwise, it's a "double standard" in that I can make a statement that you subtly infer I may not be qualified to make.... yet I would not be valid in requiring your assertation be vindicated by you being profitable yourself?

Do you see what I'm seeing here? on several levels, in several ways, I feel your misquoting, assuming, and even rejecting (incorrectly) the validity of my points... but have choosen to become somewhat argumentative rather than posting up your own interpretations, or solutions, or helpful points as to what traders who are failing should consider.

Help me out here pipmutt... I'm trying to see where the "wall" between my postings here and your fair and objective evaluation of them is coming from. I'm pretty sure I didn't beat you up in jr. high... nor scam your money. so.... what gives?

X

Very nice thread ForexTraderX! Well thought out and very well written. I enjoy reading what you post.

Kudos to you my friend.

My biggest problem that I ran into was Greed and Money Management. Let me explain real quick. I was always opening up way too many positions because I was trying to build my account up so that I could live off of the income.

Opening up too many positions due to greed led to a few margin calls, and I ended up blowing up my account.

We need to treat a $100 account like we would a $100,000 account.

Ya, totally agreed. well... actually, it's more like "success is the result of a particular set of actions and attitudes that are universally applicable in trading, regardless of account size. one cannot act or think differently due to a differetn account size, because in doing so, you alter a component of the recipe that is, in fact, already 'perfectly' appropriate to it's place in the plan, and nececssary to exist as it is if the plan and resulting actions will be successful"

something like, if you want to make a sweeter chocolate cake... you can't just"add sugar"... or else you'll ruin it. you actually need to create an entirely new recipe which the inclusion of more sugar will be appropriate to acheiving the result you want... a "sweeter cake"

so, go ahead an trade one differently than the other! but, you'll need an entierly new plan and approach if you actually are going to stand much chance of getting the result your trying to get!

X

I don't really see it as a wall, it's a discussion forum and as you yourself said the thread wasn't intended to be monologue so I can only assume you were inviting comment. You're making authoritative sounding statements declaring why people suck at trading, some of which I agree with, some of which I don't, some which are ambiguous, and some which are erroneous. I could post praise for the good points individually if you like but I thought my post about the thread helping people kind of covered that so I've focussed more on addressing the not so good points for example about the MT4 Plugin, broker selection, Rogers quote on losing trades....and although they directly contradict your statements they are factual, perfectly logical, and valid comments and observations to make. Allowing important issues to go uncommented on wouldn't be constructive or helpful would it?

As regards technical analysis calculations and tools (MA's, RSI, MACD, etc etc), they're an aid and a visual representation of what the market has done which are easy for the trader to interpret, contrary to your statement they obviously have everything to do with the market.

To be frank, if you find it uncomfortable to have your ideas, opinions, and statements scrutinised and possibly challenged then write a book rather than post on an interactive discussion forum, or alternatively ban anyone who dares to contradict you!


Sorry that's vastly different to your interpretation of what he said...."he refuses to pull the trigger on anything unless the trade basically can't lose in any possible way"

Pipmutt...restating that I made comments that are actually "erroneous" is not a valid replacement for providing evidence that I have in fact made a single erroneous statement. Ambiguous, ok... sure. incomplete even... but not erroneous. and besides, this was never meant to be a comprehensive, all inclusive thread of every thing a struggling trader may need to consider. that would in fact be impossible to do in a thread.

And it is in fact a wall... or something lesser. You seem to feel justified that you are making observations to help the readers of this thread, without yet providing a post that gives any help.

you point out what you claim i've said is wrong, but, your actually wrong, i've not made a single statement that you've found i am in error to make... you've not shown me or I believe anyone here one yet.

you did however misinterpret or make assumptions about some statements, but those were from YOUR own perspective... not from what I said.

I gave you 2 direct quotes from Jim rogers himself..and it's those I am using. I'm sure he's said lots of things that neither you nor I are quoting, some of which would further support your choice of quote, and some of which would support mine. and some completely focused on other themes.

now, at least here I can see where we disagree... I feel his point was to look to take very high probablility "no brainer" trades, by learning what to look for on a fundamental level, and then acting only when it's basically a no lose proposition.

your correct here, it is my interpretation, but were going to have to agree to disagree here. and oddly, that is actually about as close as I think we're gonna come to seeing things eye to eye.

As for broker. your right! sometimes, it looks great on the front end, only to suck on the back end.... but, again, I NEVER ONCE SAID THIS IS NOT TRUE!

Look, if you were going to buy a used car, and I said "don't buy one with high mileage and one that has been in an accident"

and then you blame me for giving you bad or erronious advice because you end up buying one that has never had the oil changed, and it burns out as you drive it home.

Dude, it's not like I said "and those are the only two things you need to look out for! if those are OK, your totally good to go!"

And the MT4 plug in. It's real, and we both know it. Show me even one place where I said "but this only applies to MT4." Or, "This is the complete and comprehensive criteria for what you should look for in a broker."

I never said that! not at all! go ahead and quote it. or, quote where I even impled that MT4 was the ONLY platform that is prone to manipulation. NEVER ONCE DID I IMPLY THIS. But again, for a second time, you are insisting that my advice is just plain wrong.

And the fact that you can't see this is....disturbing.

Look, i'm all for objective analysis and critcism. I can actually prove that in at least one example of how I received and responded to a criticism (i was much more receptive, because it was a correct observation.)

but if your going to make claim I said things that I never did, and then use those completely false insinuations to question my credibility, without providing anything actually helpful for other traders reading, then...ya! your right, i'm uncomfortable about this...but it's not my ideas your scrutinizing!

your literally creating them out of thin air, and then saying I am responsible for them. I'm also uncomfortable trying to hold debates with people suffering from obvious and acute mental disorders, and i'm uncomfortable about being accused of crimes that I did not commit.

And i'm not going to move on to the indicators thing, because you've choosen to ignore the disclaimer i put, and i clearly stated that i acknowledge some use them with success, and there are successful ways to use them.

because AGAIN, you are making another false accusation. And no, this type of nonsense is NOT constructive or helpful.

I actually am a bit unnerved and flabbergasted by your complete and utter false accusations. I think you believe them, and there is no way for me to properly address that any more than I have without debasing or completely distracting from this thread. I'll grant you the rogers quote i referred to my interpretation i'm using to prove my point of many losing traders are such because they don't recognize an extremely high probability, low risk trade when they see one. if you want to argue semantics on that...well fine. but again, we'll just agree to disagree.

I didn't feel this would be even a consideration when I started this, but i'm tempted to ban you. You are spreading false accusations, and when this mistake is pointed out to you... you simply repeat the same accusations in a somewhat louder voice.

wow. well... that's in some ways pathological. either that, or you and I are simply not going to be able to communicate with one another in any way that we can benefit from, and therefore, I see no more reason to continue this line of thinking. Do you?

Splitting hairs, ok by insinuation or omission then, either way like you say it's pointlessly argumentative and not going forward or beneficial to anyone.

Not wanting to repeat what's already been discussed or belabour those points I think it might help if we're both a bit more precise and unambiguous in future comments, would you agree?

As for me, i'll ask questions first if I see something I feel is ambiguous, but I will also continue to write as I see fit. I observe though you and I both feel this is best to discontinue, so lets do just that.

feel free to post here if you see something else you feel could be beneficial to bring up. I will address any posts that you might make with the backdrop of looking for objective and cooperative communication, and I would appreciate if you do the same. Otherwise, i mean... what's the point for either you, me or anyone right? I'll ban you, and think your at best mildly dysfunctional, and you'll think i'm a sissy narcissist who can't take criticism and must be the center of attention. (or soemthing like this)

no new points or revelations will be made, the thread will go on and take shape however, we'll both think less of each other. I just fail to see the point... so i'll do my best to see your side of things in future communication, and i'd ask you do the same.

X

Great stuff on broke rs and the trade itself, please keep it going. Your reorganization of such material into a form you personally make money from is invaluable.

A lot of people are fairly intuitive, and so they can see things you don't.
I think that's one way to understand how successful trading only via drawing on a price-and-time chart even exists.

But I understand you need plain, comprehensive stuff to determine each and every trade. Determining set variables, which I already have begun to figure -- such as your 'liquidity' -- may be more useful than I'd put it for.

Actually Ha... for myself, it's a bit more complicated than that. Assuming your pointing out primarily the post in which I "plan my trade".... for about the first year of trading full time, my plan consisted of risk management rules, max loss rules, and a few basic setups. that was it. i wouldn't pay any attention to news, or fundamentals...though i did use many time frames, and correlated markets..etc...i was pretty much a pure technical trader.

however, I have found when I was "off", it could get counter productive, because i'd lose the ability to just flow with the market, as I was trading for a living, and a few weeks of BE or losses would have hurt (I was not properly capitalized at this time... and I was not working in the family business...so i was trading with money i couldn't lose) and i suffered some fierce drawdowns as stress and fear of not making what I needed to took over, and the emotional toll was tremendous.

I don't want to use this thread to go into more... but after my 2nd year of trading full time, I decided to try to develop some more structured systems that would enable me to avoid this pitfall, but still make as much or even more money than i typically was.

2011 was solid. consistency was there, all was good.

then, 2012 came, and i've spent most of it treading water I could count aout 9 weeks that are responsible for all my profit, and the rest has just been back and forth.

so, I decided to once and for all determine a set of habits, or daily process, that enables me to clear my mind, and just trade with clarity and objectivity and serenity.

Part of how I acheive that is by creating highly structured opportunities that essentially "run themselves", as I may have 2 -4 markets that i'm day trading at any given time. I can't possibly watch each one moment to moment...as i can quickly get confused, or lose perspective that way.

and then, i just F it all up.

so, if i have oh about 3 trades in 3 markets at one time that are highly structured and preplanned, i can run them on "autopilot"....which frees me up to be more actively involved in taking day trades in a single market that I can focus on, without much distraction.

it's about systematically replicating my efforts across a wider spectrum of opportunities without sacrificing my own emotional and psychological need to be "actively interacting with the markets", or of course the profit potential that that more active trading provides.

to do that, I needed a paradigm from which to properly view the markets that could be more systematic, and less intuitive, as i would not be really able to watch it develop, or see how it evolved.

of course, forcing myself to learn a greater amount of more "structured, mechanical" type concepts has improved my trading all around, as has my attention to other forms of anlaysis besides technical.

But..ya, for about 9 months, I scalped 20-30 trades a day, with nothing more than a chart showing a few time frames, (1D, 1H, 15m, 5m and 1m), and some horizontal lines. taht was it. it worked. but when it was slow, it created stress, and that become a negative feedback loop that i quickly realized could end my hope of doing it for any length of time.

i've been working ever since to find ways to access what i know subconciously when i'm "in the zone" and make a "structured map" out of them, in order to capitalize on opportunities that i couldn't possibly monitor all at once, and to provide myself a way to get back "on track" and thus be more resiliant to the effects of stress, etc.

man, lol. this post should have gone in my OTHER thread. oh well. it's a process dude. i've still got a loooong way to go.

hope this addresses your comment properly. if not, please clarify it for me. thanks.

X

P.S. if your ever interested, send me a PM, and if u skype or twitter or whatever, you and i can pull up a currency pair, and scalp the snot out of it duirng the US session or something. I don't do that often anymore, but it is the most enjoyable form of trading i have done. (assuming you scalp...gosh, lotta assumptions i'm making here, oh well)

ehehe... actually, the whole liquidity thing I feel is immensely useful if one has experience with the concept...i'll try to find a twitter conversation i had last friday and post it here so u can see how it worked on friday, and in theory as well as practice.

X

well... here goes. you have to read it from the bottom, to the top. it's twitter, and that's how their "history" is displayed...oldest message first.

the very first tweet took place about 2 hrs before the U.S. market opened... and i'm gonna post a link to the trade(s) i was in based around this opportunity. might want to skim the whole convo from err....bottom to top first, then, check out the trade links themselves, and reread it with those in mind.

otherwise, some if it may not seem to be of any use whatsoever until the very end of the convo! lol

anyway, let me know this is in any way infomative... if not, i'll just delete it and try to make a better example at some later time.

E/U LONG TRADE 1: http://www.forexfactory.com/forextra...trade965915626

E/U LONG TRADE 2: http://www.forexfactory.com/forextra...trade965988358

twitter convo part 4 of 4 (start down below at part 1 of 4...and read from the bottom up)

Twitter convo part 3 of 4

Twitter convo part 2 of 4

Twitter convo part 1 of 4