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  • #10,261
  • Mar 29, 2012 6:04pm Mar 29, 2012 6:04pm
Quoting Daytrader74
Dear forex gods, why must thou continue to punish thy bulls? Is it because the unfaithful bulls have been worshiping the Golden Calf? Have they been seen in the temple dealing with the evil money changers; and trading their valuable paper script for worthless piles of gold and silver coins?
What's the matter DT74?
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #10,262
  • Mar 29, 2012 6:32pm Mar 29, 2012 6:32pm
Quoting realjumper
What's the matter DT74?
Trading without Symphonie system has a devastating outcome on a trader's account!
  • #10,263
  • Mar 29, 2012 6:39pm Mar 29, 2012 6:39pm
Quoting Daytrader74
Trading without Symphonie system has a devastating outcome on a trader's account!
Then you know what to do about that don't you?!
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #10,264
  • Mar 29, 2012 6:49pm Mar 29, 2012 6:49pm
Quoting realjumper
The original GoldSuperCycle indicator did paint Extreme Spikes, and I can well see how you named it as the 'Extreme Indicator', because that's what it's job was. However, TVi is MUCH more than a simple 'extreme' point indicator. It is a Tick Volume Indicator and it contains much information that is lost if using it as a histogram. Of course in the Matrix it can only be a simple red or blue, and that is the trade off for having the Matrix.....ie...information is lost. For instance.....in the attached pic you can clearly see where the PA is trending...
RJ, I totally agree that using TVI as a histogram does not serve its purpose as a trend following indicator. But on the other hand, you are also wrong by saying that we can clearly see where the PA is trending and where it is ranging in your attached picture. Because, William Blau - the real author of TVI Indi, not Mary Jane (as far as I remember she just fixed the repainting issue of this indi posted by someone else), explains in his book Momentum, Direction and Divergence (I have the book and copy pasting here what he explains) that when TVI is rising and in its positive region, the trend is up and when TVI is falling and in its negative region, trend is down. If TVI is falling in positive region or rising in negative region, Blau concludes that the market is ranging.

Now if you look at your chart again, you'll see that there are 2 instances of downtrend where TVI was negative and falling and there are 3 instances of uptrend where TVI was positive and rising within your circled area. The book does not mention anything re. the level of TVI to show if it is ranging or trending.

Look at the right hand side of your chart just outside the circle. A nice downtrend started. If you use a certain level for TVI to determine the trend, then you cannot catch the trend early enough and then TVI is no different than other lagging indis. If you use slope and negative/positive region to determine the trend, then you have 5 false signals within the circle as I explained above.

There are also other variations of TVI in the book like TVI Oscillator or Ergodic TVI but again I am not sure if certain levels can be used to filter between ranging and trending markets by checking a certain value on those.

I am a fan of Blau's work and I have all the material available from him. I even bought a charting program which has all his indicators and I spent countless hours on them. They are better than most of the indicators available on the market but again they are not as useful as you expect them to be when it comes to ranging markets.

If you have any other use of this indi (other than slope/negative-positive region or watching certain level to identify trend-if so what is your level), I am all ears.

If you need more info re. TVI or his other indis, I am happy to share.

Hope this helps,
Regards,
Blackeagle
  • #10,265
  • Mar 29, 2012 7:03pm Mar 29, 2012 7:03pm
Quoting Blackeagle
RJ, I totally agree that using TVI as a histogram does not serve its purpose as a trend following indicator. But on the other hand, you are also wrong by saying that we can clearly see where the PA is trending and where it is ranging in your attached picture. Because, William Blau - the real author of TVI Indi, not Mary Jane (as far as I remember she just fixed the repainting issue of this indi posted by someone else), explains in his book Momentum, Direction and Divergence (I have the book and copy pasting here what he explains) that when TVI is...
Thanks for your post


Of course there is no definitive and perfect way to show when a market is going to range.....we'd all be millionaires if we knew that! If you look at the angle of the slope......which you will not get with a histogram....you can see that there is no power, no volume to the move and that caution should be used if entering a trade. It's true, that to the right of the the area I marked, that the trend down developed, but there were ample opportunities to enter this down trend and take some pips.

Of course it's not perfect....nothing is. But using the indi in this way, it will help to keep the trader away from low volume ranging markets. As they say... it's better to be out wishing in, than it is to be in wishing out.

Up to a point, it doesn't matter what the book says, it's how it has been observed to work over time that really matters. The book is a guide, but the real knowledge can only come from experience. There are many times when discoveries are made 'in the field' that were not in 'the book.'

Yes, MaryJane was not the originator of this indicator, but she was the author of the indicator that we are using (TVi_V2).
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #10,266
  • Mar 29, 2012 7:11pm Mar 29, 2012 7:11pm
Fitch affirms the EU at AAA


LMAO.....what a joke
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #10,267
  • Mar 29, 2012 7:25pm Mar 29, 2012 7:25pm
Quoting realjumper
The original GoldSuperCycle indicator did paint Extreme Spikes, and I can well see how you named it as the 'Extreme Indicator', because that's what it's job was. However, TVi is MUCH more than a simple 'extreme' point indicator. It is a Tick Volume Indicator and it contains much information that is lost if using it as a histogram. Of course in the Matrix it can only be a simple red or blue, and that is the trade off for having the Matrix.....ie...information is lost. For instance.....in the attached pic you can clearly see where the PA is trending...

RealJumper,

I think I was very clear in my post #10216 on where one can get the indikator and learn all about TVIv2 that MaryJane modified. I even listed the orignal author (William Blau) of the indikator to give him credit as well as MaryJane's original post #3643 so, don't tell me I am not giving MaryJane and the author (William Blau) credit because that is simply not true. Honestly, I do not recall my dismissal of the TVIv2 indikator but I will not argue the point because it is not important. If anything I said I would not use it because I want to do testing on it and it may have gotten shelved by me at the time and it just took me a while to come back to it for testing purposes. As a matter of fact (now that I think back while writing this post), I distinctly recall when you brought it up in a conversation my reply to you was......you must be reading my mind because I was testing that indikator at the time you brought it up.

But the volume part is not why we choose collectively as a team to use TVI. It was choosen because it did very same exact thing marking the same extreme points and it was choosen simply for that fact and it does not repaint. Yes, it was turned into a histogram and I was also very clear in my post on the name of the indikator. If one chooses to use it in the MaryJane TVI v2 indikator that is fantastic!!! and everyone is welcome to do so as an addon.

Again, let me very clear, this TVI Histogram algorithm was choosen for the simple fact that it identified the same points at GoldSuperCycle and did not repaint to fill the job of the Symphonie Extreme Indikator. That is why it was incorporated after being converted into a historgram because that is what was required of the indikator in the Symphonie format and nothing else.

Now as to its other uses in the MaryJane modified form....I consider that a good guage to help in the ways you stated just like the usage of MA5 and your arrow indikator and MTF Heiken Ashi. But you have to look at it from my point of view. I am must keep some form of consistancy with Symphonie. GoldSuperCycle has always had issues and I have always been looking to find a indikator that does the exact same thing and function in the exact same role. Why?? because the Symphonie model works and if you want to use TVIv2 then I think that is great and applaud you for that usage.

In conclusion, TVIv2 is a good indikator that provides alot of different pieces of data to the trader. As I said in my original post #10216 Symphonie draw from its algorithm only the functions that are needed to fullfill the role of a non repainting Symphonie Extreme Indikator and the distilled TVI Historgram does just what is needed forr Symphonie and nothing more. I encourage all to re explore TVIv2 or TVI orginal by William Blau (included in this post) and see how it can assist ones trading.

Evaluator.:nerd:
Attached File(s)
File Type: mq4 TVI.mq4   3 KB | 801 downloads
  • #10,268
  • Mar 29, 2012 7:39pm Mar 29, 2012 7:39pm
Quoting realjumper
Thanks for your post


Of course there is no definitive and perfect way to show when a market is going to range.....we'd all be millionaires if we knew that! If you look at the angle of the slope......which you will not get with a histogram....you can see that there is no power, no volume to the move and that caution should be used if entering a trade. It's true, that to the right of the the area I marked, that the trend down developed, but there were ample opportunities to enter this down trend and take some pips.

Of course it's not perfect....nothing...

realjumper,

That is all fine and well but I really donot see how TVIv2 can show trending. I understand the cycled get narrow and I even applied different marked levels when the market was trending to see if it was possible to use a 1 to -1 range (best was 0.570 to -0.570) where if the cycles stay in that range the market was consolidating and if outside those ranges the market must be trending. (see screenshot)

It did not work because the market indeed did trend when the cycles were small and sometimes the market ranged when the cycles were large so that did not really work. Simply for the fact that reciently the markets have had huge whipsaw ranges of 40+pips wide.

Evaluator.:nerd:
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: Symphonie Screenshot 228.jpg Size: 152 KB
  • #10,269
  • Mar 29, 2012 7:52pm Mar 29, 2012 7:52pm
Quoting realjumper
Thanks for your post


Of course there is no definitive and perfect way to show when a market is going to range.....we'd all be millionaires if we knew that! If you look at the angle of the slope......which you will not get with a histogram....you can see that there is no power, no volume to the move and that caution should be used if entering a trade. It's true, that to the right of the the area I marked, that the trend down developed, but there were ample opportunities to enter this down trend and take some pips.

Of course it's not...
First of all, TVI has nothing to do with volume as its name suggests (you say no volume to the move). So even if you look at the indi as is (not histogram), you cannot understand if there is enough volume in the market. It shows the frequency of upticks and downticks in a given time interval. Look at your M5 EURUSD chart now, you'll see a steep slope on TVI in positive region. Do you think there is a heavy volume at the moment?

Second of all, Blau was an electronics engineer and gave up his career for trading. He is a very experienced trader and started his trading career by trading commodities. So, all his works are coming from experience, not like some other authors doing their job just theoretically. So, he is from the field and knows how to play, better than you and me, I am sure.

Last of all, you say " But using the indi in this way, it will help to keep the trader away from low volume ranging markets.". First, markets can be ranging with heavy volume if demand and supply are equal at a given price and buyers and sellers agree to exchange at those prices. When this indicator flattens, it shows there is no momentum to either side, it serves as a momentum indicator (I'm not trying to be a smarta.. here, just trying to explain newbies what TVI is or not so that they can make an educated decision before using an indi). Second, can you please explain how you use it and see it is a ranging or trending market by using the chart you posted? At what point did you decide the market is ranging within the circle by looking at TVI? At what point did you decide the market is trending again by looking at TVI? I would appreciate if you clarify these so that we can all understand how you use the indi.

Thanks for your time.
Regards,
Blackeagle
  • #10,270
  • Mar 29, 2012 8:08pm Mar 29, 2012 8:08pm
Quoting Evaluator
I even listed the orignal author (William Blau) of the indikator to give him credit as well as MaryJane's original post #3643 so, don't tell me I am not giving MaryJane and the author (William Blau) credit because that is simply not true.
I didn't say that...or anything like that. I said I would continue to "use the TVi as it is (yes I use Matrix as well) because of the valuable information it displays and to pay respect to MaryJane, the TVi author."


Quoting Evaluator
Again, let me very clear, this TVI Histogram algorithm was choosen for the simple fact that it identified the same points at GoldSuperCycle
In fact it doesn't identify the same points because it is a different beast altogether. You can see, not only from the colour change, but also from the angle of the slope, when a change is (probably) about to occur. Many times this has got me out of a trade before a sharp reversal that would have cost me pips, or it has given me advanced notice that a trade opportunity may be close. Yes, you could see just from the colour change, but having the complete picture is much easier to see at a glance.

In order for Symphonie to evolve.....(not change....evolve), it is, in my opinion, important to be flexible and to accept enhancements for what they are. If it doesn't fit your original template, then you shouldn't try to force things to fit.

I'm not arguing the point of the Matrix, it is an extremely useful tool and I use it all the time. I am simply saying that to create a histogram of TVi is a backward step that may fit your original template layout but it does not take advantage of the TVi itself. Therfore people are missing out on the very advantages of TVi over GoldSuperCycle, just because you wish the 'look' to stay the same and to not evolve.

TVi will stay on my charts and my Matrix has it's top row named TVi, because that's what it is......the Tick Volume indicator.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: tvi_extrm.jpg Size: 94 KB
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #10,271
  • Mar 29, 2012 8:14pm Mar 29, 2012 8:14pm
Quoting Evaluator
realjumper,

That is all fine and well but I really donot see how TVIv2 can show trending. I understand the cycled get narrow and I even applied different marked levels when the market was trending to see if it was possible to use a 1 to -1 range (best was 0.570 to -0.570) where if the cycles stay in that range the market was consolidating and if outside those ranges the market must be trending. (see screenshot)

It did not work because the market indeed did trend when the cycles were small and sometimes the market ranged when the cycles were...
Eval, agree on this. And on top of that, it is not correct to use range levels to determine ranging or trending market. Indicator always range between + 100 and - 100 or +1 and -1 depending on how the equation programmed (But from the indi presented here, I can see that it moves above/below +1/-1, so I don't know how it has been programmed).

Let's say EURUSD is going down from 1.3300 to 1.3200 with small ranging bars. Since the formula for the indi is 100*(upticks-downticks/upticks + downticks), because of the small ranging bars and small difference between upticks and downticks, the level on the indi will be close to zero. Although the market was trending and moved 100 pips but in small steps, the indi will show you a ranging market based on the levels.

Therefore it is useless to try levels on this indi. Its only use is positive/negative region with accompanying slope (positive slope in positive region or vice versa).

Regards,
Blackeagle
  • #10,272
  • Mar 29, 2012 8:19pm Mar 29, 2012 8:19pm
Quoting Blackeagle
Second, can you please explain how you use it and see it is a ranging or trending market by using the chart you posted? At what point did you decide the market is ranging within the circle by looking at TVI? At what point did you decide the market is trending again by looking at TVI? I would appreciate if you clarify these so that we can all understand how you use the indi.

Thanks for your time.
Regards,
Blackeagle
The ranging market is always identified by the pa, of course. We cannot see a ranging market in advance, and I've never said or intimated that.

There was a 30 pip (more or less) range in that circle, but there is no way I would enter in that marked area. Why not? Because the candles are erratic, the EMA is (consequently) erratic, and because TVi has little tiny bars.

As with any other kind of PA, it is never up to one indicator, it is always a confluence of indicators that reveal the true picture. Isn't it fortunate that TVi is more than just a 'one trick pony?'
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #10,273
  • Mar 29, 2012 8:33pm Mar 29, 2012 8:33pm
Quoting realjumper
... Isn't it fortunate that TVi is more than just a 'one trick pony?'
Sorry but it is just a momentum indicator. It seems you "wish" it to be more than just a "one trick pony". Just my opinion and respecting yours.

I just tried to explain what it was and wasn't for the thread followers. The rest is up to users. Anyone wishes to add it to his/her trading arsenal, be my guest. Good luck with it. Please do not use it before extensive testing.

Regards,
Blackeagle
  • #10,274
  • Mar 29, 2012 8:39pm Mar 29, 2012 8:39pm
Quoting Blackeagle
Sorry but it is just a momentum indicator. It seems you "wish" it to be more than just a "one trick pony". Just my opinion and respecting yours.

I just tried to explain what it was and wasn't for the thread followers. The rest is up to users. Anyone wishes to add it to his/her trading arsenal, be my guest. Good luck with it. Please do not use it before extensive testing.

Regards,
Blackeagle
I have used it with extensive testing over a long time now Blackeagle. It is not a 'one trick pony' like the GoldSuperCycle was, and if you had extensively tested it over time, you would know that.
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #10,275
  • Mar 29, 2012 8:47pm Mar 29, 2012 8:47pm
Quoting Evaluator
realjumper,

That is all fine and well but I really donot see how TVIv2 can show trending. I understand the cycled get narrow and I even applied different marked levels when the market was trending to see if it was possible to use a 1 to -1 range (best was 0.570 to -0.570) where if the cycles stay in that range the market was consolidating and if outside those ranges the market must be trending. (see screenshot)

It did not work because the market indeed did trend when the cycles were small and sometimes the market ranged when the cycles were...
20 pips above and below the median is not a "huge" whipsaw. It is typical of consolidation, and if people get caught out by that more than once, they need to have a good hard look at their method of trading.

I am different to you in that I do not look for specific and precise levels of any indicator. You will remember us getting irritated by you trying to pin me down to a specific level on the Stochastic. The markets have a degree of plus and minus......or breathing space or whatever you want to call it.

At the end of the day, my post on this subject is how I feel and the way I trade. You can argue to the cows come home and all it will achieve is to drag down the thread.

You and I will never see eye to eye on this issue, so I will continue using TVi in the way I have done with success, long before I brought it to your attention.
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #10,276
  • Mar 29, 2012 9:00pm Mar 29, 2012 9:00pm
Quoting realjumper
I didn't say that...or anything like that. I said I would continue to "use the TVi as it is (yes I use Matrix as well) because of the valuable information it displays and to pay respect to MaryJane, the TVi author."




In fact it doesn't identify the same points because it is a different beast altogether. You can see, not only from the colour change, but also from the angle of the slope, when a change is (probably) about to occur. Many times this has got me out of a trade before a sharp reversal that would have cost me pips, or it has given...
realjumper,

Look at your screenshot. It does do the basic same thing it may not identify the level on the exact bar it may be a little later or earlier but the same basic thing happens at the transition levels. Price action flattens out (consolidates) then there is a potential for directional change once Emotion, Sentiment, and Trend catch up with the price action flattening. They both are around the same point. So, in my opinion yes they do the same thing at basically the same point.

Extreme v3.0 has one advantage over the older version. It does not repaint and when it can do those two basic functions (identify exhaustion points of possible direction change and not repaint) then that is what Symphonie needed and all I wanted it to do. Therefore why don't you think of the distilled version in histogram form Symphonie Extreme v3.0 a completely different and more basic indikator since you tell me I have taken away so much from the indikator??

Look, I think we are arguing symantics here and trying to draw to many fine a point on Symphonie Extreme v3.0 versus TVIv2. The are both good indikators and provide traders with tools of the Symphonie System. Isn't that the whole purpose???

As to your point about being flexable...I think I am. I endorse addons and new methods of trading Symphonie all the time. I think you are getting too caught up in defending something that does not need defending because I AM NOT ATTACKING or tearing down. I am on your side!

TVIv2 is a good tool and I also think Symphonie Extreme Indikator v3.0 is also a good tool that fullfills a narrow and specific role. Sometimes the best things are the simple ones and that is what I want....a simple system that each trader can build a foundation from using Symphonie. If one wants to use addons and additional indikators I think that is great and one should trade as they feel most comfortable.

Quote
TVi will stay on my charts

That is your right and I am all for it. Use it as you feel best. Now can we please move on to making pips instead of arguing???? Because it seems we are going to get no where with this because we are basically talking the same thing here.

Evaluator.:nerd:
  • #10,277
  • Mar 29, 2012 9:00pm Mar 29, 2012 9:00pm
Quoting realjumper
I have used it with extensive testing over a long time now Blackeagle. It is not a 'one trick pony' like the GoldSuperCycle was, and if you had extensively tested it over time, you would know that.
RJ, you have been testing it for how long, several months, maybe a year. It seems you haven't read my previous post. I bought a trading software for Blau's indis in 2002 and used them for a long time for end of day trading (the name of the software is Fibonacci Trader by Robert Krausz who was one of the most prominent traders re. multiple time frame trading) and they also have real time forex trading software (used that one too) (not advertising or selling anything here, just trying to explain I have more than enough experience with Blau's indis).

Anyway, I don't want to be in a "who knows better" contest. But it is not true what you say re. extensive testing or using it.

If it gives you good results, I am happy for you. Good luck with your pony, hope it gives you a good ride on trends. Moving on.

Regards,
Blackeagle
  • #10,278
  • Mar 29, 2012 9:08pm Mar 29, 2012 9:08pm
Quoting Blackeagle
Anyway, I don't want to be in a "who knows better" contest.
Obviously, you do!!!


Quoting Blackeagle
But it is not true what you say re. extensive testing or using it.
And you know this because?...........


Quoting Blackeagle
Anyway, if it gives you good results, I am happy for you. Good luck with your pony, hope it gives you a good ride on trends.
I don't have a pony, I have an indicator that is great at identifying probable ending of moves long before reversal occurs, great at identifying probable entry points before pa actually moves, great at identifying probable re-entry points before it's too late and great at identifying probable ranging PA.

However, your sarcasm is noted.

Enjoy reading your books and manuals.....I'll enjoy my profits.
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #10,279
  • Mar 29, 2012 9:15pm Mar 29, 2012 9:15pm
Meanwhile TVI discussion , may I ask if matrix 3.0 need the Autorefresh indi? tks
Humble & Kalcker CLO2 = Covid killer
  • #10,280
  • Mar 29, 2012 9:21pm Mar 29, 2012 9:21pm
Quoting Evaluator
Therefore why don't you think of the distilled version in histogram form Symphonie Extreme v3.0 a completely different and more basic indikator since you tell me I have taken away so much from the indikator??
Why release the histogram at all? All it does is to take away from TVi....not enhance it in anyway at all.

As I said, the Matrix is great, and it is impossible to not lose some of the features of TVi when creating the Matrix. That is not the case for the TVi.....to release a histogram is just a huge backward step and it is taking away from the people, some of the features of TVi. Why would you want to take away some of the features from the people, just to make it fit your chosen template format? It makes no sense at all.

TVi can sit alongside the other indicators quite happily. There is clearly no need to take away some of it's features to make a histogram. That's just stupid.
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
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