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Extreme TMA System

  • #7,281
  • Mar 26, 2012 5:00pm Mar 26, 2012 5:00pm
Quoting Alorente

I couldnīt have said it any better. This is a business. If you are feeling stress or tension right now, you are doing something wrong.
Screen time pays off over the years.

Al obviously has experience and his only objective with this thread is to help.
USD Est Non Mortuus
  • #7,282
  • Mar 26, 2012 5:04pm Mar 26, 2012 5:04pm
Quoting dorellino
Please stop being in your "short temporary planet". Don't you know that you can go long also? Is that stinking? Going long and making money?
One of rule number one in trading (there are many rule number one..): don't get married to your position
As simple as that
Guys, if it was so simple we all would be billionaire.
Go and have a look at my Friday Day EU chart and its trend line and its targets. Did I design that chart knowing something? No, just geometry and nothing else
Was I cautious today going short? Yessssssssssssss!!!
Best
Max
LOL....well ok then
  • #7,283
  • Mar 26, 2012 5:06pm Mar 26, 2012 5:06pm
This was my first trade off of the 1 hour chart. It just missed my target of 80 pips by 2 pips. Trailing stop took me out with 40 pips profit. Not bad as it all happened while I was asleep!!
Just want to thank Al and all the other experienced traders for sharing all their knowledge in this thread.


Bob
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  • #7,284
  • Mar 26, 2012 5:06pm Mar 26, 2012 5:06pm
Quoting Alorente
As a matter of fact, if I wasnīt a disciplined son of a bitch, made that way by years of hell for not being so, I would love to jump all over this trade on the short side right now, but my maximum percentage per position is already used up.
AL, what is your maximum percentage per position ? tks
  • #7,285
  • Mar 26, 2012 5:12pm Mar 26, 2012 5:12pm
To Al, William, P.Dean and all,
I've followed this thread from the beginning, and this is what I've gained from Al generous teaching.
Al's method of building confidence, as I understand it:

1a. If you are a new, inexperienced, or unprofitable trader, start with a practice account, or trade micro lots. When you go live from a demo, start small, very small. The point if to build confidence and gain consistency, not to gain large profits.

1b. New and inexperienced traders should not trade M5, M15, M30 TF's, but should gain confidence by trading longer TF's, H1 or greater.

2a. If you use a tight stop, use one of the two EA's from page 1 to enter. This will get you in a little later, and safer for your stop, but you will lose a few pips. You will not then suffer the loss of confidence that getting your stops hit repeatedly just before the PA moves in your direction.

2b. If you use recovery, trade very small! That will take the confidence robbing fear out of the game! Only use recovery for those trades that continue to be valid according to the other rules, and market conditions. If you would not take the trade at the point that you need to use recovery, take the loss instead.

3. Exit according the the rules on page 1, always realizing the market conditions can always influence your decision to be more conservative or more aggressive. True knowledge of market conditions can only be learned by careful observation and long experience, so, be patience, observant, and precede on the side of caution until you gain confidence.

4. Learn the rules by practicing, applying yourself, and observing the way the market moves. "Observation is the path to discovery!"
You will only be able to discovery the best way for you to trade successfully by understanding the kind of trader you are and the way the market moves. You can only connect with those two vital pathways to success by being in a relaxed, observant, curious, and open-minded state of mind. Putting on a position that is too large for you to be comfortable is the biggest enemy to that successful state of mind.

5. Trading is an art as well as a science. Otherwise, only the big firms that hire PhD's and rooms full of servers would have a chance of wining. Al makes this absolutely clear throughout this thread ~ there is always more to learn. Remain open-minded (but not so open-minded that you brains fall out! )
Each trader has to go through a learning process to find out how much risk they are comfortable with, which will determine whether they use a tight SL, a looser SL, a distant SL, recovery, a mental SL, or no SL (not recommended ;^).

6. Use careful money money management by only risking 5%, or less, of your total capital on any one trade.

7. Always do a post trade analysis of each trade to see if you really followed the rules, or "fudged" them. If you have several losses in a row, and you think you've followed the rules, stop and carefully analyze what you've been doing to try to spot any errors in judgement. If you've tried everything and still can't see the error of your ways, get the advice of an expert, i.e., Al, Mike, William, Carl, Sharooz, etc., etc. There are many helpful traders on this thread that would respond to a sincere request from a serious trader.

8. If trading is not enjoyable, you are doing something wrong! Stop and figure out what that is before continuing to trade!


P.Dean (I'll try too be as "blunt" and "straight forward" as I can, but I think you've got me bested in that department!;^) Rather than elevating your opinions to the level of doctrine, a real, concrete contribution would probably be more helpful.

Got any rules, or indicators, or EA's that address exactly how to place your stops so that they are not repeatedly hit? Because that really robs a trader of his confidence!!

Even if you're a successful trader, your advice may apply only to your specific style of trading. Your opinions may not be useful for many, or even most, other traders.

Each trader is different, and each one of us has to find the method that he is totally comfortable with to be successful.

Al is a person of high integrity. He trades recovery successfully, and I have no reason to doubt that. He's been to the school of hard knocks and came out winning, and now he's willing to share what he's learned. Those of us on this thread are grateful, and know an opportunity when we see one.

Maybe you're a whiz kid, okay! Fine, I'll accept that. Maybe your method works better with SL's. Great! That really doesn't mean that your methods are the only ones that work.

BTW you glossed over a number of important points in dismissing his recovery method:

1. He makes it very clear that you should be trading only a small portion of your total account and that initially you should be trading very small lots. I'm sure that if I have 10 losses in a row, at $0.10X100pips=$10X10losses=$100, it's going to blow my account and devastate me so that I can never trade again. I've lost $1200 in 5 min. trading futures, and that really caused me to sweat, brother!
But $100, get real. If you can't stand that, you'll never make it as a trader!

2. You ignore the fact that he only uses recovery if the trade is still valid according to the rules and market conditions. If you obey this rule, and you are using only a small amount you account, you are doing something wrong if you have a long list of consecutive lossers. Time to stop and evaluate, and ask for help if you can't figure it out.

3. You have overlooked that loss of confidence that getting your SL's hit repeatedly causes. This is especially true for traders that use a broker that tends to run SL's, and they are common.

4. Finally, you might consider that you may have been blinded by hide-bound opinions, since you apparently did not look closely enough at what exactly Al was doing. An open-minded person would have, at least, been curious about how he could achieve such stellar results using a method that you are convinced is unworkable.

Okay, I'll accept that you are helpful and sincere in offering your opinions here, trying to save us from racking up huge loses and losing our confidence. Now I'd like to return the favor, being as "blunt" and "straight forward" as I can.

Surely, you've heard the old trading saw, "Check your ego at the door!" Though you appear to be a successful trader, could it have gone to your head?

Again, sincerely trying to help, I would suggest that you learn a little humility, and I can assure you, from experience (I'll be 69 in 2 wks), that you'll have a happier, more enjoyable and healthier life.

When you are tempted to give your undiluted advice on a thread other than your own, you might look carefully first to see if it is helpful, warranted, and if there is something that you can contribute to the thread's system that would solve the mistake(s) that you are trying to address.

Contribute something concrete, as so many others here have, and you find that you truly become part of the group, not just an outsider trying to run a thread that's, perhaps, a bit more successful than a few others.

You sound like you could be a contributor here, but not as a leader.

We already have a leader, and he's very good.
The mind thinks, the heart knows...
  • #7,286
  • Mar 26, 2012 5:16pm Mar 26, 2012 5:16pm
Quoting LuckyLurker
Screen time pays off over the years.

Al obviously has experience and his only objective with this thread is to help.
no one is questioning Al's intention or objective, i am not for one. there is no question that he is trying to help and get help with all due respect. but exchange of ideas and opinions and questions the philosophy of trading system is what a open forum all about and it will make the system/traders better in its course.. thats all this is about LL. I wish you success and good health brother.

Al never mind about the question. i gotta go to bed. just keep on clicking on my name for the next month or so i might bring me luck.. lol.

good night all, and sorry if i talked to much.

regards,
Dean
  • #7,287
  • Mar 26, 2012 5:24pm Mar 26, 2012 5:24pm
Quoting P.Dean
...the reason is i have not been trading full time yet this year and my style requires full time attention in order to capture most if not all opportunities that produces. so i have trade it just when i could.. the other reason is the cycle thing that i talked about earlier every trader could got through losing one, kind of unlucky to end up with more of a losing ones than winner, so that could be the reason too but i give 20% share to that only...can i ask you a question?
Mmmmh. Your profile says you are a "Professional FX Trader", so like Al I assumed that you were a successful fx trader...

Looks like my mistake, eh, Dean?

Well, that's okay, welcome to the club.
The mind thinks, the heart knows...
  • #7,288
  • Mar 26, 2012 5:32pm Mar 26, 2012 5:32pm
Quoting Ever E. Man
To Al, William, P.Dean and all,
I've followed this thread from the beginning, and this is what I've gained from Al generous teaching.
Al's method of building confidence, as I understand it:

1a. If you are a new, inexperienced, or unprofitable trader, start with a practice account, or trade micro lots. When you go live from a demo, start small, very small. The point if to build confidence and gain consistency, not to gain large profits.

1b. New and inexperienced traders should...

respect and honor sir. thanks, i always respect my elder.

good night all again.
  • #7,289
  • Mar 26, 2012 5:34pm Mar 26, 2012 5:34pm
I see there are some questions about recovery. Everyone must understand that recovery is another form of range trading. You just expand your range. However, you cannot fight strong fundamental moves. Sometimes you are just on the wrong side of a trade and you just exit. Al does a good job in explaining some of this. What you have to understand is that there is a specific place you just take your loss. I trade year round but if you look at my long term record I have 1 or 2 losing months every year. I dont know a single trader that does not have a losing period at some point. It is just part of the game. What some of you need to decide is: Where and at what point do I take my losses? There is no avoiding this situation. You can throw a godzillion indicators on a screen or you can trade with none. Either way there is a point that says. When I reach point x I close my trade for a loss. Until you can do that you will never be a successful trader. As some of you know I trade small so I can trade with a lot of range. One penny per 500 dollars of account. Others trade bigger, some trade smaller but the key to success is knowing, dang this is all wrong time to take my loss. Take your loss and move on, whether you recovery trade or just use a plain ole stop loss. Close the trade and move on. Again 70% of the time price will range, the other 30% price will trend but most trends are small to medium. The few times price makes a long run, like the EURO did last fall, and you are on the wrong end. Close it out and move on. You dont blame, the system, the broker, lady luck, etc. I have recovered trades as large as -1400 pips and others I have closed out less then -100 pips. My viewpoint is this and you do not have to agree but if you cant go to bed with your trades running you probably are trading too big of a lot size or you have no confidence in your SL or Profit placements. Sorry Al, felt a sermon coming on there.
  • #7,290
  • Mar 26, 2012 5:35pm Mar 26, 2012 5:35pm
Quoting P.Dean
respect and honor sir. thanks, i always respect my elder.

good night all again.
The same to you, Dean! I respect everybody. Welcome aboard.
The mind thinks, the heart knows...
  • #7,291
  • Mar 26, 2012 6:26pm Mar 26, 2012 6:26pm
Quoting P.Dean
no one is questioning Al's intention or objective, i am not for one. there is no question that he is trying to help and get help with all due respect. but exchange of ideas and opinions and questions the philosophy of trading system is what a open forum all about and it will make the system/traders better in its course.. thats all this is about LL. I wish you success and good health brother.

Al never mind about the question. i gotta go to bed. just keep on clicking on my name for the next month or so i might bring me luck.. lol.

good night all,...
sleep well. Hope you are catching pips.
USD Est Non Mortuus
  • #7,292
  • Edited 8:34pm Mar 26, 2012 8:06pm | Edited 8:34pm
This is not meant to be argumentitive or disrepectful.

A rose by any other name smells the same.

Recovery system...price averaging. What's the difference? One and the same? Good money chasing after bad?

The setup:

Not very busy casino, just you and dealer at blackjack table. You have some system that tells you the deck maybe in your favor. First hand you lose; system says deck is still in your favor, second hand same size bet as first and you lose; system says deck is still in your favor.

Question:

Do you double up the bet or do you call it a day?

Recovery 1-1-2-4 what's the difference or similiarity?

Can you control the outcome of the next hand or where the E/U price is going?

The only sure thing in life is death and taxes. Some people have managed to avoid the latter and scientist are working to avoid the first one.

Cheers and many pips to all.
  • #7,293
  • Mar 26, 2012 8:54pm Mar 26, 2012 8:54pm
Quote
Recovery 1-1-2-4 what's the difference or similiarity?

Well off the top of my head, the difference is that the odds are mathmatically stack against you in a casino. Whereas with recovery "hopefully" your analysis has the odds in YOUR favor.

I do agree that inexperienced traders should be careful using recovery as if their analysis is off, then they may very well be rolling the dice.

But to compare any/all recovery trade as a gamble, would mean ALL trades are gambles. But this is not true. Unlike blackjack, experienced, knowledgeable traders have the odds in their favor.
  • #7,294
  • Edited 9:40pm Mar 26, 2012 9:30pm | Edited 9:40pm
Quoting fxtrader2k7
This is not meant to be argumentitive or disrepectful.

A rose by any other name smells the same.

Recovery system...price averaging. What's the difference? One and the same? Good money chasing after bad?

The setup:

Not very busy casino, just you and dealer at blackjack table. You have some system that tells you the deck maybe in your favor. First hand you lose; system says deck is still in your favor, second hand same size bet as first and you lose; system says deck is still in your favor.

Question:

Do you double up the bet...
What is the difference between a single hard SL or a multiple-level recovery. Nothing. You are both trading a range. If you set your SL at 30 and your TP at 60. Your range is 90 pips. If I trade with a range of 1000 pips, it is still a range. It is not gambling or doubling your bets. You trade with smaller lots and you can increase your range. When you increase your range you increase your odds of becoming successful. Let us say your are willing to risk 1% of your account and your account is 2000 dollars. That means 1% equals 20 dollars. With me so far? If you trade 1.00 dollar lots you hit your 1% at 20 pips. If you trade ten cents lots you hit your 1% at 200 pips. If you trade one penny lots you hit 1% at 2000 pips. The loss and risk is what you want to make in your trading. I can tell you from years of experience from trading and from using the math. It is not gambling, it is not martingale, it is simple money management and putting the odds in your favor. Once you understand that you wont call it gambling, doubling down, averaging etc. You are simply handling your funds in a much safer and easier to handle environment. Yes I dont double my account every month or two months but over a period of years I average 5-10% a month depending on market moves, etc. These are acceptable gains to me and acceptable risks in trading. If you accept this math you dont blow up your account either. I hope this finally clarifies this whole issue. Sorry AL. If you need me to shut up I will.
  • #7,295
  • Mar 26, 2012 10:00pm Mar 26, 2012 10:00pm
Quoting nanningbob
What is the difference between a single hard SL or a multiple-level recovery. Nothing. You are both trading a range. If you set your SL at 30 and your TP at 60. Your range is 90 pips. If I trade with a range of 1000 pips, it is still a range. It is not gambling or doubling your bets. You trade with smaller lots and you can increase your range. When you increase your range you increase your odds of becoming successful. Let us say your are willing to risk 1% of your account and your account is 2000 dollars. That means 1% equals 20 dollars. With me...
Well it sounds good, what you are saying. But in reality is different. If what you are saying is true, than go mortgage the house, sell the cars and you will be a millionaire in no time "investing" this money in forex. But naningbob, in reality you said it yourself you would not trade a big account with this style. If you want I will find those posts. This trading style with "recovery" works when you don't risk lots of money. Lets say you have an account of 50.000 or 100.000 would you still trade the way you do right now? Be honest 10 % a month would be 5000-10000 dollars a month. Why don't you do it?

Let me tell you why. BECAUSE THIS IS NOT A PROFESSIONAL WAY OF TRADING. This is gambling. There is a risk you will lose all your account trading that way. And if you go all the way down on your recovery trades how long it takes to recover all the lost pips trading very small?
  • #7,296
  • Mar 26, 2012 10:06pm Mar 26, 2012 10:06pm
Quoting odellcash
Well off the top of my head, the difference is that the odds are mathmatically stack against you in a casino. Whereas with recovery "hopefully" your analysis has the odds in YOUR favor.

I do agree that inexperienced traders should be careful using recovery as if their analysis is off, then they may very well be rolling the dice.

But to compare any/all recovery trade as a gamble, would mean ALL trades are gambles. But this is not true. Unlike blackjack, experienced, knowledgeable traders have the odds in their favor.
There is a chance recovery trades will put you even deeper in problems.. SO.. you do "rolling the dice" Just take the loss and move on. That is how you make money in forex.
  • #7,297
  • Mar 26, 2012 10:07pm Mar 26, 2012 10:07pm
Quoting dorellino
Please stop being in your "short temporary planet". Don't you know that you can go long also? Is that stinking? Going long and making money?
One of rule number one in trading (there are many rule number one..): don't get married to your position
As simple as that
Guys, if it was so simple we all would be billionaire.
Go and have a look at my Friday Day EU chart and its trend line and its targets. Did I design that chart knowing something? No, just geometry and nothing else
Was I cautious today going short? Yessssssssssssss!!!
Best
Max
funny.... but so true.
  • #7,298
  • Mar 26, 2012 10:20pm Mar 26, 2012 10:20pm
Quoting iulli
Well it sounds good, what you are saying. But in reality is different. If what you are saying is true, than go mortgage the house, sell the cars and you will be a millionaire in no time "investing" this money in forex. But naningbob, in reality you said it yourself you would not trade a big account with this style. If you want I will find those posts. This trading style with "recovery" works when you don't risk lots of money. Lets say you have an account of 50.000 or 100.000 would you still trade the way you do right now? Be honest 10 % a month...
My last post, we are not doing that other thread again. What I said and what other people say I said are two different things. My biggest problem is misrepresentation. If you trade like I do you simply are looking for % increase of the account. My biggest losses sometimes exceed 1% but are never bigger than 1.5%. The vast majority of my losses are around .2-.4% range My win ratio is very high. The system works on any amount of money because the percentages remain the same. I did say with larger amounts of money, which I do trade but is not for public consumption, I use lesser % but the principles are still the same. 1% of 100K is no different than 1% of 2000 it is still 1%. Winning 5-10% of 100K is nothing to sneeze at either. My focus is purely bottom line, not some single component. If I bank 15% and use 8% to cover my losses you can focus on the 8% all you want but I like my 7% for that month. Like I have said before, it would take over 50,000 pips in losses to wipe out my account. I doubt a monkey typing trades in randomly could do that. I like my trading style, the freedom and security it gives me. It works but it is not for everybody. What you say it true, I dont disagree with anything you say, except those things are overcome by trading small and having large ranges. That is what makes it work. And if ever a trade goes beyond that 1% or the fundamentals are strong against me I take my loss. There is no endangering the account if you do it right.
  • #7,299
  • Mar 26, 2012 10:38pm Mar 26, 2012 10:38pm
  •  Mr C
  • Joined Mar 2012 | Status: Knowledge is "potential" power | 439 Posts
Let's say you risk 2% the bigger your account gets the more you risk but the % is the same if the system works with $500.00 it will work with $500,000.00 because your just moving a dot and this does not change the system this is money management you will be limited on contract size my broker is set at 30.00 maximum contract size so you need 2 orders if you want to trade more then 30.00 contracts at once.
Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most .
  • #7,300
  • Mar 26, 2012 10:51pm Mar 26, 2012 10:51pm
Quoting nanningbob
... it would take over 50,000 pips in losses to wipe out my account. I doubt a monkey typing trades in randomly could do that...
Thanks, nanningbob. It's very clear, to anyone willing to listen.
The mind thinks, the heart knows...
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