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Symphonie Trader System

  • #6,061
  • Feb 20, 2012 6:17am Feb 20, 2012 6:17am
Quoting Evaluator
There is only one input setting and you place the timeframe you wish it to monitor.

(see attached screenshot)
Gotcha, thanks.
  • #6,062
  • Feb 20, 2012 6:26am Feb 20, 2012 6:26am
Quoting Evaluator
Alorente,

You state; then you are not trading Symphonie System. The core 4 indikators are the heart of the system and trendline is the guiderail by which the entire is built from. The moment you remove it you are now not using Symphonie and you are using something else.

Symphonie Trader System is built on four key blocks, emotion, sentiment, extreme, and trendline. It is true that trendline is the slowest of the 4 indikators but it is also the rock that keeps the system grounded in direction. Remove that and it is like removing the rudder...
Eval,

I believe what you are saying about the Trendline Indicator, but I have looked at many charts and the evidence tells me time after time that the trades would have been more profitable without it. Here is a good example. On the EURUSD daily chart attached, the Green lines are placed where the system I am trying today would have entered long. The Orange lines, as you can see from the Matrix, is where Symphonie tells you to enter. Almost at the end of the Up move. I have tried to check this out in many time frames and I get the same results. Can you explain to me why you think the trendline indicator is indispensable? I am not trying to counter you in any way. I just want to understand why this is so.

Thanks.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: daily comparison.jpg Size: 161 KB
Observation is the path to discovery.
  • #6,063
  • Feb 20, 2012 6:30am Feb 20, 2012 6:30am
Quoting Alorente
I donīt know what to tell you. Iīm placing the lines as I place the trades. Maybe our broker feeds are different...?

Here is the updated chart.
no problem. you don't have to excuse. it is my personal behavior as a detective in a forensic dept to only believe if it is proof.
i know it is not the brokerfeed. it lies in something nobody wants to hear thousand times a day.

but as long as you made profit day in and day out everything is perfect.
my advice for all beginners outside. learn the basics 101 of trading and then educate yourself in psychology and behavioral finance. you will see that every system works. free your mind from a lossing behavior. feel the market flow and think in probabilities.

but stick to the rules posted at every #1 page at this board which meets your personality and you will be on a way to a sucessfull trader.

Mediator
  • #6,064
  • Feb 20, 2012 6:31am Feb 20, 2012 6:31am
Quoting Alorente
Eval,

I believe what you are saying about the Trendline Indicator, but I have looked at many charts and the evidence tells me time after time that the trades would have been more profitable without it. Here is a good example. On the EURUSD daily chart attached, the Green lines are placed where the system I am trying today would have entered long. The Orange lines, as you can see from the Matrix, is where Symphonie tells you to enter. Almost at the end of the Up move. I have tried to check this out in many time frames and I get the same results....
You could always change the setttings for the trendline. RJ uses 20,5 and this seems to get you into the action a little earlier.
.... laughing all the way to the bank
  • #6,065
  • Feb 20, 2012 6:50am Feb 20, 2012 6:50am
Quoting Alorente
Eval,

I believe what you are saying about the Trendline Indicator, but I have looked at many charts and the evidence tells me time after time that the trades would have been more profitable without it. Here is a good example. On the EURUSD daily chart attached, the Green lines are placed where the system I am trying today would have entered long. The Orange lines, as you can see from the Matrix, is where Symphonie tells you to enter. Almost at the end of the Up move. I have tried to check this out in many time frames and I get the same results....
Alorente,

Great question! The reason that I choose the trendline indikator is because it keeps one on the backside of a price action movement which is where one wants to be in the corse of price action. (see chart from post#5881)

There is the though process for the indikators.

Extreme is the exhaustions points of a movement that denote the absolute highs and low points of a movement. Emotion and Senitment are the feelings that develop on a price movement and are generally the key drivers of a movement. Trendline is the established trend that keep the price action moving in the same direction. Kinda of like the establishment of tradition....you become accustom to moving this direction so you keep moving and helps to reinforce your feeling drivers (emotion and sentiment)

Trendline tends to be slower to develop especially in times of consolidation because there is no directional driver that has take over the price action so it will just whipsaw back and forth until some driver pushes Emotion and Sentiment over the edge and establishes a consencious of direction (trend).

However, you can make trendline more sensitive and have it react more quickly to changes in the market as you can observe with RealJumpers changes to the input settings to trendline to help get one into trade earlier and possible to make additional pips. But becareful because making trendline more sensitive will make it more prone to false trend readings and you could enter price action when the market conditions are still in flux and a true trend has not been established.


As to your graph you are correct it is not perfect. But if you look at the counter signal right after the first orange line you had a perfect Sell signal that produces a good amount of pips as a sellorder. I make no arguement that Trendline will lead you to enter trades later in a price action movement, however, Symphonie is by design to get you in on the backside of a price movement per post#5881 design and not at the absolute bottoms and tops. Hopefully this lowers the whipsaws and keep one in trades longer as trend holds an makes one more pips.

Please let me know if my rabling has explained the process satisfactory.

Evaluator.:nerd:

P.S. Trendline also works better in larger timeframes as trend tends to last longer as it takes more drive to change them.
  • #6,066
  • Feb 20, 2012 6:51am Feb 20, 2012 6:51am
Quoting itsallover
You could always change the setttings for the trendline. RJ uses 20,5 and this seems to get you into the action a little earlier.
But that would be optimizing for the result you want. Iīm against optimizing trading systems.
Observation is the path to discovery.
  • #6,067
  • Feb 20, 2012 6:54am Feb 20, 2012 6:54am
Quoting Evaluator
Alorente,

Great question! The reason that I choose the trendline indikator is because it keeps one on the backside of a price action movement which is where one wants to be in the corse of price action. (see chart from post#5881)

There is the though process for the indikators.

Extreme is the exhaustions points of a movement that denote the absolute highs and low points of a movement. Emotion and Senitment are the feelings that develop on a price movement and...
Yes, I understand you perfectly.

Thanks.
Observation is the path to discovery.
  • #6,068
  • Feb 20, 2012 6:57am Feb 20, 2012 6:57am
Quoting itsallover
You could always change the setttings for the trendline. RJ uses 20,5 and this seems to get you into the action a little earlier.

Excellent point! RealJumper's 1 min strategy that changes the sensitivity of the trendline works very well in both 1 min and 5 min.

Alorente may wish to use those setting. Also if you note on Post#1 I have posted my setting that are not as sensitive as his but they both work very well.
  • #6,069
  • Feb 20, 2012 7:02am Feb 20, 2012 7:02am
Quoting Alorente
But that would be optimizing for the result you want. Iīm against optimizing trading systems.

Alorente,

However, I do tend to optimize the setting for the market conditions. It is important to keep a well oiled machine and tuned to the conditions it is being used for best efficiency. Last Year, with all the wild drivers from EFSF to Greece a setting of 45,15 was found to be optimal. It is also the default. However, with new drivers of the market it appears that making the trendline alittle more sensitive tends to provide better results. So, I posted my changes on post#1 to 30,15 for trendline.

Evaluator.:nerd:
  • #6,070
  • Feb 20, 2012 7:03am Feb 20, 2012 7:03am
Quoting Evaluator
Alorente,

Great question! The reason that I choose the trendline indikator is because it keeps one on the backside of a price action movement which is where one wants to be in the corse of price action. (see chart from post#5881)

There is the though process for the indikators.

Extreme is the exhaustions points of a movement that denote the absolute highs and low points of a movement. Emotion and Senitment are the feelings that develop on a price movement and...
I believe that, at heart, symphonie is great at trend following and innefective contertrend. Now, if we could only define what a trend is and then include the conditions that would keep you from entering countertrend consistently, then Symphonie would be as close to a perfect system as there is out there. The Heiken Ashi system is ok but not effective on the initial part of the change in trend.
Observation is the path to discovery.
  • #6,071
  • Feb 20, 2012 7:03am Feb 20, 2012 7:03am
Hi A

looking at your entries, with even a minor spike and a MA cross, you will enter against the current HA trend, in entry #2 long it looks like the only trend in agree with the E-spike and ma cross is the HA 240....

can you comment?

cheers
  • #6,072
  • Feb 20, 2012 7:07am Feb 20, 2012 7:07am
Quoting goldsurfer
Hi A

looking at your entries, with even a minor spike and a MA cross, you will enter against the current HA trend, in entry #2 long it looks like the only trend in agree with the E-spike and ma cross is the HA 240....

can you comment?

cheers
Yes, I agree. I am not using any of the time frames in HA as a filter. I find them to be too inconsistent. I am ignoring the HA indicator in my conditions.
Observation is the path to discovery.
  • #6,073
  • Feb 20, 2012 7:08am Feb 20, 2012 7:08am
[quote=Alorente;5401015]For those of you that are new to trading or still learning the ropes, I want to say that there is no such thing as a perfect system or an infallible one. The market is alive and changing just like you and I are. What works today, I guarantee you has a good chance of not working 2 years from now. I have a friend who not only is a great trader, one of the best, and became a pretty famous designer of trading systems. He knew pretty much everything about trading, BUT, then 2008 showed up and he lost most of his fortune. 2008 broke all the rules that existed before and it caught a lot of people by surprise. Nothing replaces knowledge and continuing to learn every day to adapt to the new circumstances.

Hi Alorente! Can you please post your template so we can get your settings in a flash?

Thank you in advance and best compliments 4 your results!
  • #6,074
  • Feb 20, 2012 7:10am Feb 20, 2012 7:10am
Quoting Alorente
Eval,

I believe what you are saying about the Trendline Indicator, but I have looked at many charts and the evidence tells me time after time that the trades would have been more profitable without it. Here is a good example. On the EURUSD daily chart attached, the Green lines are placed where the system I am trying today would have entered long. The Orange lines, as you can see from the Matrix, is where Symphonie tells you to enter. Almost at the end of the Up move. I have tried to check this out in many time frames and I get the same results....
Here is a situation I have observed today on AUDUSD. At the close of 9:05 EST bar there was a long extreme spike and then at the close of 9:20 EST bar, MAs crossed over and we had a buy signal at 1.0762 plus spread. A bar later, at the close 9:25 bar, MAs repainted and there was no crossover. Since there is no stoploss as you are trading signal to signal, if price continues south, you may incur a large loss until you have an opposite signal. So, the weakness of this scalping strategy is that it will make you open a position in a small retracement but if the trend continues later on and if this trend lasts longer than normal swings, then you may have a really big loss as you wait for the next opposite signal. This may be the case for the original Symphonie system, too, but I believe the major difference is that Symphonie has some emergency exit rules (even reentry rules) set which makes it safer to trade.

Re. lagging trendline indi, you can play with its settings, and also as a seasoned trader, you must be aware that it is a tradeoff either to have a responsive indi and more whipsaws or lagging indi and less whipsaws, depending on your trading style.

Just my two cents.

Thanks for your contributions.


Regards,
Blackeagle
  • #6,075
  • Feb 20, 2012 7:11am Feb 20, 2012 7:11am
Quoting Alorente
But that would be optimizing for the result you want. Iīm against optimizing trading systems.
But isnt eliminating the trendline optimizing to get in earlier? Or is it creating a new system based on the Symphonie principle?
  • #6,076
  • Feb 20, 2012 7:16am Feb 20, 2012 7:16am
[quote=corvogrigio;5401388]
Quoting Alorente
For those of you that are new to trading or still learning the ropes, I want to say that there is no such thing as a perfect system or an infallible one. The market is alive and changing just like you and I are. What works today, I guarantee you has a good chance of not working 2 years from now. I have a friend who not only is a great trader, one of the best, and became a pretty famous designer of trading systems. He knew pretty much everything about trading, BUT, then 2008 showed up and he lost most of his fortune. 2008...
Here is the template, but if you donīt have all of the indicators, and there are many, it will crash your system.
Attached File(s)
File Type: tpl symphonie scalping.tpl   31 KB | 551 downloads
Observation is the path to discovery.
  • #6,077
  • Feb 20, 2012 7:18am Feb 20, 2012 7:18am
Quoting rivtrader
But isnt eliminating the trendline optimizing to get in earlier? Or is it creating a new system based on the Symphonie principle?
More the second. I am not touching the default values that Comer wrote in. A good system should work without touching the inputs. If you optimize for today, you may make more today but less tomorrow.
Observation is the path to discovery.
  • #6,078
  • Edited 7:41am Feb 20, 2012 7:21am | Edited 7:41am
Quoting Alorente
I believe that, at heart, symphonie is great at trend following and innefective contertrend. Now, if we could only define what a trend is and then include the conditions that would keep you from entering countertrend consistently, then Symphonie would be as close to a perfect system as there is out there. The Heiken Ashi system is ok but not effective on the initial part of the change in trend.

Alorente,

Now you are hitting in a grey area because it really depends on how you view trend. Are we talking trend of the moment (i.e. 5 min) or overall trend..(i.e. daily or weekly)

That is why I quickly adopted the Heiken Ashi 240 min row for the establishment of overall trend to keep one in the proper direction of price action. Symphonie in 5 min the trendline is the trend of the moment which is subject to constant and quick change while using the Heiken Ashi as your guide for overall trend will keep one from trading counter to the guiding overall trend and make trading with that trend using the trend of the moment (i.e. Symphonie Trendline) in a Symphonie Signal a much stronger order to place than counter trend.

Reference post #2543 - or see post #1 (tips section)

Evaluator.:nerd:
  • #6,079
  • Feb 20, 2012 7:30am Feb 20, 2012 7:30am
Quoting Alorente
I donīt know what to tell you. Iīm placing the lines as I place the trades. Maybe our broker feeds are different...?

Here is the updated chart.
Hi Alorente,

Can you share based on what information you did those trades in post #6056. The lines you draw are at the color change of the MA_crossover_histogram, but it will take six bar's to close before this color change is confirmed. Untill then the color can flip around. Is there anything else you're watching, in that case we can skip the histogram.

Please see attached chart.

Thanks,

PBB,
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: eur 5min.gif Size: 27 KB
  • #6,080
  • Feb 20, 2012 7:30am Feb 20, 2012 7:30am
Quoting Blackeagle
Here is a situation I have observed today on AUDUSD. At the close of 9:05 EST bar there was a long extreme spike and then at the close of 9:20 EST bar, MAs crossed over and we had a buy signal at 1.0762 plus spread. A bar later, at the close 9:25 bar, MAs repainted and there was no crossover. Since there is no stoploss as you are trading signal to signal, if price continues south, you may incur a large loss until you have an opposite signal. So, the weakness of this scalping strategy is that it will make you open a position in a small retracement...
Yes. I am totally expecting that to happen sooner or later. When that happens I will manage my way out of the trade and wait for the next signal. If that wasnīt a problem then we would indeed have the Holy Grail. The alternative is to have a stop loss at a previous high or low. That is the weakness of the signal to signal system. Thatīs also what makes writing an EA of this system difficult
Observation is the path to discovery.
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