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Symphonie Trader System

  • #5,941
  • Feb 19, 2012 12:02pm Feb 19, 2012 12:02pm
Quoting Evaluator
Alorente,

RealJumper is using MA as a confrimation tool for Symphonie Signals. He is NOT basing his orders on just Extreme indikator. I have real concerns with your post on using Extreme indikator only for the simple reason that it is the weakest of the indikators, its math is based on HiLo like the indikator zigzag and very much prone to repaints especially in the lower timeframe.

Remember, Extreme Indikator is only a signal flare or marker to prepare you for price actions changes and not meant as a time to make orders. It is purely prepretory...
I was just following up with what oŽhammond and RJ were already doing. They were trading something similar to this system on Friday and I decided to investigate it. Sorry if I am out of bounds. IŽll refrain from posting on anything that is not strictly symphonie.

Good luck.
Observation is the path to discovery.
  • #5,942
  • Feb 19, 2012 12:06pm Feb 19, 2012 12:06pm
Quoting bfis108137
I will never understand the issue people have with repainting indicators. Essentially it seems that it's in your head. Indicators repaint sometimes in the future but we trade in the present so a repainting indicator shouldn't have any impact on your trades. Either the trades are profitable or not but repainting shouldn't be an issue. The only problem I can see with repainting is back testing since repainting indicators will not give you an accurate picture of what you would have seen had you been looking at the screen a specific time. That can also...
This is a great post and have to agree...repainting is not an issue at all..Eval has continued to post his account every week to prove that profits can be made from symphonie and to be honest I still use the basic set up with matrix and money management from post one and slightly changing the take profit when markets are tight.
I have full confidence in it and the only part of symphonie that can fail is the user themselves.
Thank You James16, Fijitrader, Mbqb1, ghous, Pinbar and Jarroo. cpfleger
  • #5,943
  • Edited 12:23pm Feb 19, 2012 12:07pm | Edited 12:23pm
Quoting Alorente
I was just following up with what oŽhammond and RJ were already doing. They were trading something similar to this system on Friday and I decided to investigate it. Sorry if I am out of bounds. IŽll refrain from posting on anything that is not strictly symphonie.

Good luck.
Alorente,

No problem with your post and you are not out of bounds. I just wanted to make is clear to everyone that this is a scapling techniuque and ohammond is not using Symphonie.

Your post are most appreciative and welcome. I am also curious to see your outcomes from live testing next week.

Again, please feel free to post and discuss. I just want to make it clear to all the new people that this is not Symphonie and to understand that I consider it a higher risk and a very loose model based on only 1 Symphonie indikator.

Please take no offense as I only wish to clearify to all the readers.

Evaluator.:nerd:
  • #5,944
  • Feb 19, 2012 12:27pm Feb 19, 2012 12:27pm
All those posts and activity for a sunday !!
Wow

PS : Backtested MA Cross in strategy tester and it repaints like hell (4-5 bars). Totally differnt than the F12 technique where all lines & corsses are already fixed. Will be difficult to build an EA around this. Anyway, I'm also really looking for the live results !
#### Follow me at @LioH_ on Twitter ... ####
  • #5,945
  • Feb 19, 2012 12:37pm Feb 19, 2012 12:37pm
Quoting Alorente
OK. IŽm trading the system from the beginning of the year with the F12 one bar advance as if it where real time. I have changed a couple of things. I am always in a trade. When I close the long I open a short at the same price and viceversa. ...
I was itching to answer, but wanted to finish reading this rather heated debate
The results are very impressive, no doubt. However, I wanted to point out a few things that will offset this method in real-time trading.

First, personally, I stay away from "stop-n-reverse" systems - too easy to get killed in a sideway movement. Even in a steady trend, the counter trades may be so short and shallow that they actually produce a loss. That's why any system inevitably ends up using some kind of "trade direction filter" that allows taking only shorts or only longs. Usually it is simply an MA slope from the higher timeframe. Or, in case of Symphonie - HA matrix (which is really a form of MA as well).

Second, you either incur a higher lag or many false signals due to MA-cross been only an approximation on the last few (default 6) bars:

Quoting comer
While signal in the "shadow" it may repaint, the further from the edge - the less likely, until it goes out from the shadow, which means those bars will never repaint.
Actually, it was pointed out by ohammond that the valid signal occurs no earlier than 3rd MA-cross bar. Which means those counter trades that I mentioned above will be even shorter, shallower and lossier.

Third, as I said I am also have been experimenting with this scalping strategy to complement overall Symphonie, but with a number of additions.
I only trade in the direction of Major spike. I.e. I take a trade as soon as Major spike has been confirmed by MA-cross and stay until opposite Minor spike at which point I exit. Then I wait until an opposite minor spike appear - agan this would be in the direction of the Major spike - and take the ride further. All spikes must be confirmed by MA-cross. And so on until the opposite extreme spike.
Also, I am always on a lookout for pivot/SR lines and I don't take a trade if it seems too risky (would be too short if stopped on the line).
As Eval mentioned, Minor spike are way too unreliable and if you wait for them to be confirmed, they often disappear. If that happens I consider it an entry signal in the direction of the last Major spike. You may notice that this is exactly the "rapainting play" outlined by Eval, but applied to Minor spikes.
With all that said, I feel that using different exit strategy, other than minor spike only, would increase profitability.

Alorente, I urge you to use a demo account, not real money first. It is the real-time trading, but will protect you from the real-time loss
If the method is as profitable as it seems, then after demo you will have enough time to earn your millions and enjoy them too

Good luck!
Comer
  • #5,946
  • Feb 19, 2012 12:59pm Feb 19, 2012 12:59pm
Quoting iffex
And I'm leaving again.
I'm really glad to hear it!

Quoting iffex
Then feel bad for being a douche afterwards so obviously I shouldn't be on here.
You're absolutely correct!

And if you call somebody "an idiot" one more time and/or you continue trolling - I will report you to the moderators.
Gentlemen always play by the rules. If they can't, they change the rules.
  • #5,947
  • Feb 19, 2012 1:06pm Feb 19, 2012 1:06pm
Quoting comer
I was itching to answer, but wanted to finish reading this rather heated debate
The results are very impressive, no doubt. However, I wanted to point out a few things that will offset this method in real-time trading.

First, personally, I stay away from "stop-n-reverse" systems - too easy to get killed in a sideway movement. Even in a steady trend, the counter trades may be so short and shallow that they actually produce a loss. That's why any system inevitably ends up using some kind of "trade direction filter" that allows taking...
Thanks for your input, Comer. I am still confident enough to go live with my real account. IŽm 61, been trading for over 30 years. I also will rely on subjective techniques I have acquired over the years which I wonŽt mention because someone without trading experience and TA knowledge can get hurt using them. IŽll let you know how it develops by the end of this week. Initially, I intend to go at it exactly as tested, with the color of the MA at the close of the bar. If it repaints, IŽll get out my vet gear and fight my way out of the trade.
Observation is the path to discovery.
  • #5,948
  • Feb 19, 2012 1:15pm Feb 19, 2012 1:15pm
Ok this is bad, didn't mean to start such a furore. As someone has already pointed out, it is no measure of a system to use F12 because as rightly said, these trades are already set, you should get mostly only winners.

I was using it as a scalping strategy pure and simple, and not going in until the bar actually CLOSED red or blue and the stoch agreed I didn't care if it repainted the last 4 bars as long as it closed that colour. It could be on the 4th candle or 5th or second, really didn't matter as long as it closed. I also looked at the pivots etc. I did the same thing in the strategy tester, the only time I got into trouble was jumping the gun and not letting it close. So I used real money on Thursday and Friday to test it out, I had a total of 34 trades, 4 losses and 30 wins, and I traded right up until the last minute of trading on Friday just to stretch it.

Personally I think the closest thing to the holy grail is the full Symphonie system on the 1hr chart using realjumpers trendline settings, but its boring when you're used to active trading so I wanted to scalp as well.
  • #5,949
  • Feb 19, 2012 1:22pm Feb 19, 2012 1:22pm
Quoting ohammond
Ok this is bad, didn't mean to start such a furore. As someone has already pointed out, it is no measure of a system to use F12 because as rightly said, these trades are already set, you should get mostly only winners.

I was using it as a scalping strategy pure and simple, and not going in until the bar actually CLOSED red or blue and the stoch agreed I didn't care if it repainted the last 4 bars as long as it closed that colour. It could be on the 4th candle or 5th or second, really didn't matter as long as it closed. I also looked at the...
ThatŽs exactly what IŽm saying. IŽll take the trade with whatever the color is at the close. Also, you can see the crossover with the MA cross lines indicator. I would be leary if I had to rely only on the histogram. I would love to see the results of an EA going by the color of the close on the MA without regard to repaints. Anyway, weŽll see this week.
Observation is the path to discovery.
  • #5,950
  • Feb 19, 2012 1:24pm Feb 19, 2012 1:24pm
Quoting Alorente
Thanks for your input, Comer. I am still confident enough to go live with my real account. IŽm 61, been trading for over 30 years. I also will rely on subjective techniques I have acquired over the years which I wonŽt mention because someone without trading experience and TA knowledge can get hurt using them. IŽll let you know how it develops by the end of this week. Initially, I intend to go at it exactly as tested, with the color of the MA at the close of the bar. If it repaints, IŽll get out my vet gear and fight my way out of the trade.
Alorente,

As I said before, please keep us informed on your results in your experiment. I do agree with Comer that it would be advisable to test this with a demo account and not risk any real money but you know what is best for you and best of luck!

Evaluator.:nerd:
  • #5,951
  • Feb 19, 2012 1:26pm Feb 19, 2012 1:26pm
The Asian market open should prove to be quite interesting.....

IRAN CUTS OIL TO UK, FRANCE
  • #5,952
  • Feb 19, 2012 2:19pm Feb 19, 2012 2:19pm
Quoting comer
Hey guys, I am actually using the same strategy plus I watch if there is a pivot nearby. I consider it a warning and don't enter if it is too close ahead or a confirmation sign if it is close behind
Exit is my weak point though. So I wanted to ask - when do you exit? PA, lines, Symphonie signals?

Regards,
Comer
Hi Comer,

Exits are always a little tricky, but I very much trade pivot to pivot. Pivots and previous S/P area's plus round numbers make the basis of my exit points. If, for example, we take a long trade just above the daily pivot, I will be aiming at daily R1 as a possible exit, assuming there are no other S/P, round numbers etc between the DP and R1. When R1 is achieved, I will already have my SL at BE and I will be ready to exit if the PA stalls and looks to reverse. It will stall somewhat at that level, but here is where stochastic can help out. If the PA is likely to bounce off R1 and reverse, stochastic can often give a 'heads up', and if so, I will exit. If I exit and the PA continues north, I will either look to re-enter the trade, or else wait for a new trade later. If the PA continues and I am still in the trade, I will bring my SL up to (say) 20 pips below R1, and now aiming at R2, or any other S/R or round number between R1 and R2. If there is nothing between R1 and R2, the PA will probably hit R2, and so I will repeat the process above. If there is S/R (either one or many) between R1 and R2, I will manually trail my SL until it either gets hit in profit or until the PA is obviously stalling at a particular S/R level.

Exits are not an exact science, which is why EA's fail, but this is the way I do it.

Hope that helps.

RJ
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #5,953
  • Feb 19, 2012 2:45pm Feb 19, 2012 2:45pm
Sorry guys,

Just quickly; can anyone help me with what realjumper's trendline setting are that Ohammond is referring to?

Thank you. Keeping up with this thread is slowly becoming a full time job
  • #5,954
  • Feb 19, 2012 2:55pm Feb 19, 2012 2:55pm
Quoting dakuki
Sorry guys,

Just quickly; can anyone help me with what realjumper's trendline setting are that Ohammond is referring to?

Thank you. Keeping up with this thread is slowly becoming a full time job
Here you go
Attached Image
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #5,955
  • Feb 19, 2012 3:24pm Feb 19, 2012 3:24pm
Right now I use the output of 20 pips, many of you who use protective stop of 50 pips but my question is:

As the operation salenen in losses? When you exit the opposite order?

I regret that might please ask questions already answered my language but I do not understand some concepts, thanks to heart.
  • #5,956
  • Feb 19, 2012 4:11pm Feb 19, 2012 4:11pm
Just a quick hello to the thread members.
I've spent the better part of this weekend re-reading the thread from the start.
To those that don't want to start from the beginning and read I say listen to the experienced/senior ones here and do it.
I picked up so much more information the second time thru, it answered questions I had, and some I hadn't even thought of.
I know I still have a lot of work in front of me, and I don't have all the answers yet, but that's ok, everyone has to start somewhere.

I now have the MT4 charts up and working right now, which was a challenge as I haven't used them before.

Special thanks to Eval for this great system, Im able now to start demoing with much more confidence. Also to RJ, thanks for your great input and support to a lot of members here.

Cheers SR
  • #5,957
  • Feb 19, 2012 4:33pm Feb 19, 2012 4:33pm
Quoting realjumper
Hope that helps.
It helps greatly, thank you very much! I was thinking along the same lines and concluded that I exited too early after a number of trades went further after I cut them loose. I'll try using Stoch for confirmation.
When do you move SL to BE? Do you trail SL?

Regards,
Comer
  • #5,958
  • Feb 19, 2012 4:54pm Feb 19, 2012 4:54pm
Quoting comer
It helps greatly, thank you very much! I was thinking along the same lines and concluded that I exited too early after a number of trades went further after I cut them loose. I'll try using Stoch for confirmation.
When do you move SL to BE? Do you trail SL?

Regards,
Comer
Generally speaking, I will move SL to BE at about +30, or sooner if I see the PA start to falter. I do trail the SL, but I trail it manually rather than use a true trailing stop.

As I say, exits are very difficult, and there is no exact way to do it. I find stochastic helps a lot, but it's still not exact.....I do leave pips on the table from time to time.

Many people here also use Evals exit methods as on page 1.....I guess it's a matter of whatever works for you.

At the end of the day, if you're consistently taking pips, you can't be doing too bad....no one ever went broke from taking profit!!
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #5,959
  • Feb 19, 2012 5:28pm Feb 19, 2012 5:28pm
Quoting realjumper
Generally speaking, I will move SL to BE at about +30, or sooner if I see the PA start to falter. I do trail the SL, but I trail it manually rather than use a true trailing stop.

As I say, exits are very difficult, and there is no exact way to do it. I find stochastic helps a lot, but it's still not exact.....I do leave pips on the table from time to time.

Many people here also use Evals exit methods as on page 1.....I guess it's a matter of whatever works for you.

At the end of the day, if you're consistently taking pips, you can't be doing...
Cool! Thank you!
  • #5,960
  • Feb 19, 2012 6:09pm Feb 19, 2012 6:09pm
Sorry for my insistence friends but I would like to clarify a doubt.

The stop is set to 50 but security is rarely touched.

When it's time to close an operation at a loss?

That is what they are looking to get out of a negative operation?

I watched the entire post 3 times but as the English very hard for me not clear to me eses point.

Thank you.
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