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Sonic R. System

  • #29,041
  • Edited 5:38pm Dec 18, 2011 5:08pm | Edited 5:38pm
Quoting jdtrader
sonicdeejay, traderathome, and/or any other veterans trading live successully...

So far, I have noticed several situations that come up that are like this and would like to know based on the original sonic proven method, how these kind of situations are handled. It is very easy to say after seeing results after the fact, but I'm asking based on the original sonic rules and as if it's developing how this should be handled for these kind of cases.

What I notice is a setup forms for long, but then setup forms for short, and vice versa, and happens...
Here is my shot at answering this.

1. Regarding what you refer to as the first setup, a short setup, it isn't because there was not a proper PA wave for a short. A good L in the H-L-LH pattern is missing. Pic. 1 shows a better PA wave for a short. However, in your case and the one I show, EP is outside the London session, so those are not acceptable short setups.

2. Regarding the second setup for a long, there are two ways to look for the long setup....

a) Just trade per Pic. 2 (a proper L-H-HL wave). Or,
b) Follow Hansma's idea of waiting for a pullback to the EP area, a second "HL" in a L-H-HL-HH-HL wave form, as shown in Pic. 3. (He might actually have entered a bit lower, which would not be according to the Sonic R. recommendations.)

....Either way, the long setups put EP in the London session, so they were genuine Sonic R. System setups.
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  • #29,042
  • Dec 18, 2011 6:29pm Dec 18, 2011 6:29pm
Thank you for attempting to answer this...
I wasn't basing my example on the time of entry...I'm just pulling examples because I noticed these kind of examples come up even during specified entry times....I just randomly picked one.

Quoting traderathome
1. Regarding what you refer to as the first setup, a short setup, it isn't because there was not a proper PA wave for a short. A good L in the H-L-LH pattern is missing. Pic. 1 shows a better PA wave for a short. However, in your case and the one I show, EP is outside the London session, so those are not acceptable short setups.
"not a proper PA wave for a short A good L in the H-L-LH pattern is missing." Can you define this more with rules? From post #1 and instructions it doesn't necessarily define a good versus bad H-L-LH PA pattern wave.

To me it looks like a good wave as long as you draw the angle slightly wider than your first pic. In your second pic of a proper long, you drew the wave with a wider angle supporting the consolidation period to accept the long as a valid long, so why would you say that is not a valid short PA?....it's very easy to pull this after the fact and try to examine reasons why that was not a valid short and why that was a valid long....but maybe more so pretend if you didn't know where the market was heading.... I still don't see why one is better than the other since so many of the rules behind sonic's entry are validated for an entry in both of these cases. Both of these examples seem more as entries versus others that I have seen posted where dragon's are not as strong, etc.

When I say can you define this more with rules....to you it may be clear, but to me and probably others, we need a little more help to see exactly why you would have clearly avoided the short, but definitely go for the long...besides the time of the trade....reason I say this is because I was anticipating a response saying both are perfect scenarios and we are just lucky the first one didn't fit within the time (even though I have seen this happen in allotted entry times). But that the first is not a good PA wave makes me more so curious thinking we are missing some interpretation of the rules behind PA waves. Any help with this would be very appreciated.

Quoting traderathome
2. Regarding the second setup for a long, there are two ways to look for the long setup....

a) Just trade per Pic. 2. Or,
b) Follow Hansma's idea of waiting for a pullback to the EP area, a second "HL" in a L-H-HL-HH-HL wave form, as shown in Pic. 3. (He might actually have entered a bit lower, which would not be according to the Sonic R. recommendations.)
....Either way, the long setups put EP in the London session, so they were genuine Sonic R. System setups.
a) has a wide angle wave, so if it used in a, I would think in pic1 we could do wider angle and hence do short trade.
b) interesting, although you do realize it is between 4am and 7am EST so an entry wouldn't have taken, or would have anyway? But also regardless of entry time, thank you for pointing this out. which of the a or b do you prefer when doing entries and have seen more success with?
  • #29,043
  • Dec 18, 2011 6:41pm Dec 18, 2011 6:41pm
Quoting jdtrader
Thank you for attempting to answer this...
I wasn't basing my example on the time of entry...I'm just pulling examples because I noticed these kind of examples come up even during specified entry times....I just randomly picked one.



"not a proper PA wave for a short A good L in the H-L-LH pattern is missing." Can you define this more with rules? From post #1 and instructions it doesn't necessarily define a good versus bad H-L-LH PA pattern wave.

To me it looks like a good wave as long as you draw the angle slightly wider than your first...
I can only suggest you do not complicate things for yourself, or over analyze.

Regarding good vs not so good PA wave forms, look for a wave you could surf on! I mean, the better the differentiation between Hs and Ls, spaced out and with uniformity of candles between, the better the waveform is. I won't argue the point of this one in particular because the more important item is the time of the EP, i.e. before LO. You seem to take this as a slight matter. It is not a slight matter. Outside of the London session setups just seem to offer less in the way of good runs, and a lot more in the way of suddenly reversing or just stopping and going nowhere but ranging.

Setups with EP outside of the London session can offer trading opportunities, but albeit with far greater risk of something going wrong and far less chance of it going really right.

Classic Sonic R. is about S&R, PA waves and trading the time in the market when the most money is at work there, i.e., the London session, because that is when setups have the opportunity for the greatest momentum to carry them to good profit.
  • #29,044
  • Dec 18, 2011 6:51pm Dec 18, 2011 6:51pm
GU:

Here is an example of entering a short setup based on an additional pullback to the original EP area. This is an aka Hansma situation. The original PA wave was during the second half of the London session on Friday. PA did not run far. In fact, some BB(s) worked the price backwards thru the late US session, and with little resistance to their price manipulations they managed a very nice high right at the end of the week.

In any case, PA has been dropping in this early asian session start of the week, and I entered as shown in the pic. (my bad for entering a trade during the asian session!). The FE is based on the original PA wave (H-L-LH). I should expect FE 100%-127% to be reached. Heck, the range low is near FE 262%, which is a viable target also, just not for the asian session!
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  • #29,045
  • Dec 18, 2011 7:26pm Dec 18, 2011 7:26pm
Quoting traderathome
I can only suggest you do not complicate things for yourself, or over analyze.
hehe I am not trying to over analyze, but instead make rules for EA. I triggered a trade for both situations (I am testing irregardless of entry time at this moment just to test more entry points) and noticed from testing that there are numerous situations like this....I was simply wondering if there was a way to get rid of so called "not good" waves Yes, it wouldn't trigger based on time, but just wondering how you had defined a good versus bad wave and you answered with better differentiation between Hs and Ls, spaced out and uniformity of candles between. I will be looking at this more. Thanks! Also, thanks for reminding how important the entry period time is.
  • #29,046
  • Dec 18, 2011 7:40pm Dec 18, 2011 7:40pm
Quoting traderathome
GU:

Here is an example of entering a short setup based on an additional pullback to the original EP area. This is an aka Hansma situation. The original PA wave was during the second half of the London session on Friday. PA did not run far. In fact, some BB(s) worked the price backwards thru the late US session, and with little resistance to their price manipulations they managed a very nice high right at the end of the week.

In any case, PA has been dropping in this early asian session start of the week, and I entered as shown in the pic....
It is interesting you posted this....similar situation. We have a H and LH and you shorted (dragon not angled down well at time of your short entry) and not during entry time. But I see a L and HL with support and even though dragon down...if it follows with the support and the L and HL, then by the time entry time is validated, the dragon could be turned up and a perfect sonic long?
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  • #29,047
  • Edited 8:24pm Dec 18, 2011 8:07pm | Edited 8:24pm
Quoting jdtrader
It is interesting you posted this....similar situation. We have a H and LH and you shorted (dragon not angled down well at time of your short entry) and not during entry time. But I see a L and HL with support and even though dragon down...if it follows with the support and the L and HL, then by the time entry time is validated, the dragon could be turned up and a perfect sonic long?
jdtrader, don't with a situation that is not yet a setup! The PA wave you have marked with a HL might not turn out to be such! It all depends on which direction PA takes thru the Dragon. As long as PA is on the south side of the Dragon, short wave forms should have the priority. If PA comes to the north side of the Dragon, then long wave forms should have the priority.

My entry short was based on pullback upwards to SR in first PA wave, and a second pullup to SR (even beyond in late US session Friday), a Hansma situation I believe. And, there were volume spikes on those pullbacks. So, I ventured an asian session trade (Oh, woe is me!) when PA dropped into the Dragon and was about at the EP area from the original PA wave. Time will tell what is what with this. It could just have been dropped to base for a run up later. I don't know the future, but for now, PA looks bearish based on what I have described. Since entry, the GMT based pivots have updated, and so I have added a higher TP that coincides wth the updated GMT DS1.
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  • #29,048
  • Dec 18, 2011 8:56pm Dec 18, 2011 8:56pm
It does seem like a perfect short right now....if the entry time was appropriate. I hope you make lots of pips on this trade!

in discussing waves....I wonder if a rule such as this would make it more defined and not cause a perfect short and perfect long to be right next to each other....
for short....maybe instead of H-L-LH -> L-H-LL-LH
for long....maybe instead of L-H-HL -> H-L-HH-HL

This way you wouldn't have perfect scenarios next to each other in a narrowing market? Using the current gbpusd situation, it would be a good short, but not a good long because it is a downward trend? What do you think? Or do you think this would conflict too much with your entries? But maybe it's a perfect perfect setup? It would eliminate long/short is it a perfect wave scenario. The only downside I see is that this way you would not be able to be part of breakouts, but once broken be able to re-enter given the new wave pattern I'm suggesting.
  • #29,049
  • Dec 18, 2011 9:17pm Dec 18, 2011 9:17pm
Quoting jdtrader
It does seem like a perfect short right now....if the entry time was appropriate. I hope you make lots of pips on this trade!

in discussing waves....I wonder if a rule such as this would make it more defined and not cause a perfect short and perfect long to be right next to each other....
for short....maybe instead of H-L-LH -> L-H-LL-LH
for long....maybe instead of L-H-HL -> H-L-HH-HL

This way you wouldn't have perfect scenarios next to each other in a narrowing market? Using the current gbpusd situation, it would be a good short, but not a...
JD, I don't know. Maybe experiment with your idea? If it does not turn out well, stick with H-L-LH and L-H-HL. In the later case, EA would have to close out any existing opposing trade if PA suddenly went rogue to the opposite side of the Dragon. This is the way we manually manage.

BTW, PA has also broken south thru an M15 TL and come back up to test it, and is dropping......
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  • #29,050
  • Dec 18, 2011 9:33pm Dec 18, 2011 9:33pm
JD, not to discourage you, but regarding writing an EA......

What moves price in the market are people, people with the sums of money necessary to do so and with the willingness to use their money to do so. And the direction they might move the price is up to them, at the time, based on whatever motivations they have.....

....which is to make profits, regardless of whether their price drives are in sync with "news", or not! ....whether their price drives are in sync with technicals, or not!

So (and "therefore"), one cannot expect PA, technicals, priests or seers to be reliable factors to use in code attempting to predict!

One must simply look at the chart, trade what they see, and exercise good money management because at any time the price can take off in the opposite direction,......fast and furious!

That is the nature of people, and of the market which is driven by powerful people.

My hat will be off to you if you can do it. And many Sonikers will praise the results of your efforts, if you do. And you, jdtrader, will go into the Sonic R. System Hall of Fame!

Hey! Sonicdeejay, the Master. And jd, the coder. Has a nice ring to it.
  • #29,051
  • Dec 18, 2011 9:47pm Dec 18, 2011 9:47pm
Quoting traderathome
GU:

Here is an example of entering a short setup based on an additional pullback to the original EP area. This is an aka Hansma situation. The original PA wave was during the second half of the London session on Friday. PA did not run far. In fact, some BB(s) worked the price backwards thru the late US session, and with little resistance to their price manipulations they managed a very nice high right at the end of the week.

In any case, PA has been dropping in this early asian session start of the week, and I entered as shown in the pic. (my...
GU:

Closed half for 47 pips EP to TP1. SL at BE+.
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  • #29,052
  • Dec 18, 2011 9:49pm Dec 18, 2011 9:49pm
Quoting traderathome
EA would have to close out any existing opposing trade if PA suddenly went rogue to the opposite side of the Dragon. This is the way we manually manage.
no problem....why manually manage the close if you can have EA do it. It can close out any existing opposing trade if PA suddenly went rogue no problem...but I am currently not concentrating on exits just yet.
  • #29,053
  • Dec 18, 2011 9:56pm Dec 18, 2011 9:56pm
Quoting traderathome
JD, not to discourage you, but regarding writing an EA......

What moves price in the market are people, people with the sums of money necessary to do so and with the willingness to use their money to do so. And the direction they might move the price is up to them, at the time, based on whatever motivations they have.....

....which is to make profits, regardless of whether their price drives are in sync with "news", or not! ....whether their price drives are in sync with technicals, or not!
no worries and I know all this I was a professional trader in the chicago mercantile exchange for several years I used to be some you could consider at one point a BB as you want to call


Quoting traderathome
So (and "therefore"), one cannot expect PA, technicals, priests or seers to be reliable factors to use in code attempting to predict!
Just as manually you cannot predict, code can't predict. Everything you think in your brain, can be coded however. some think not, that is fine...it is not their interest and I don't need to prove because I know, but anything can be programmed that is done manually....anything. Anyone that tells you not possible is either not a programmer or not a great programmer.

But this is not a discussion about EA or not EA...in fact, I prefer not to discuss this and stray away from sonic's strategy...let's focus on the strategy at hand...I am just looking for clearer entries and exits to help my testing and appreciate you and others helping in the process!
  • #29,054
  • Dec 18, 2011 10:10pm Dec 18, 2011 10:10pm
Quoting jdtrader
no worries and I know all this I was a professional trader in the chicago mercantile exchange for several years I used to be some you could consider at one point a BB as you want to call



Just as manually you cannot predict, code can't predict. Everything you think in your brain, can be coded however. some think not, that is fine...it is not their interest and I don't need to prove because I know, but anything can be programmed that is done manually....anything. Anyone that tells you not possible is either not a programmer or not a...
Rodger that! I'll trade, you code (I'm tired of coding!)
  • #29,055
  • Edited 10:39pm Dec 18, 2011 10:13pm | Edited 10:39pm
Quoting traderathome
GU:

Closed half for 47 pips EP to TP1. SL at BE+.
Closed other half also for 47 pips from EP to TP1. I feel good with the results of this asian session trade, and decided not to push my luck.
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  • #29,056
  • Dec 18, 2011 10:34pm Dec 18, 2011 10:34pm
Staying aside for the moment. It is still in Asian Session. burnt my pocket once and not again. Let see how LO will react from this movement.

xmas is near. everyone doing shopping and who stay with their chart?
  • #29,057
  • Dec 18, 2011 11:30pm Dec 18, 2011 11:30pm
GU:

Entered long near EP of previous SonicR long setup (EP= 1.5482). PA pulled back down, tested this support area on high relative volume, and reversed up again. For the time being (prior to LO) holding with only closer in TPs based on FE for original SonicR long setup.
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  • #29,058
  • Dec 18, 2011 11:45pm Dec 18, 2011 11:45pm
Quoting traderathome
GU:

Entered long near EP of previous SonicR long setup (EP= 1.5482). PA pulled back down, tested this support area on high relative volume, and reversed up again. For the time being (prior to LO) holding with only closer in TPs based on FE for original SonicR long setup.
I'm not following your sonicR long setup...can you show me where the wave L-H-HL is for your 30min GBPUSD? It would seem that some may be short still if they have not exited their short conservatively...

ahh ok I see you drew it earlier...because most recent wave is L, LH, LL...shouldn't we always consider the most recent appropriate wave?
  • #29,059
  • Edited 12:25am Dec 19, 2011 12:15am | Edited 12:25am
Quoting jdtrader
I'm not following your sonicR long setup...can you show me where the wave L-H-HL is for your 30min GBPUSD? It would seem that some may be short still if they have not exited their short conservatively...

ahh ok I see you drew it earlier...because most recent wave is L, LH, LL...shouldn't we always consider the most recent appropriate wave?
Interesting thoughts come when thinking on that question. It has been on my mind for some time now that one of the most relevant waves is the one off the top, or off the bottom, even though more might follow as PA cycles up and down in a new trend down, or in a new trend up. Thus, the FE levels of the very first significant PA wave in a new direction might hold to be primary thru the trend, even as other waves produce new FE levels of their own. Just a thought.....

In the case of this new long trade, FO/LO might bring another low, maybe one higher than the current low and producing a new L-H-HL. And that new wave, should it occur, might place a new EP for a long trade in the London session. On the other hand, PA might just be driven down lower, another leg down in the most recent/local trend. I do not know, but based on the test of support on high relative volume, it looks bullish to me now. Enough so to enter on the basis of the original large SonicR long setup from two sessions ago.
  • #29,060
  • Edited 2:20am Dec 19, 2011 2:09am | Edited 2:20am
eu long...let the market decide

moved the SL to BE +2
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