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  • #8,141
  • Sep 24, 2011 8:18pm Sep 24, 2011 8:18pm
Quoting pavikogm
The problem is not caused by EA. It's impossible to change partially closed order even manually.
Perhaps you're missing my point... When you start with an original order (e.g. order #3000001) of, say 1.6 mini-lots size, and your EA TRIES to close all 1.6 lots but instead it only gets a partial close 1.0 lots, then yes THAT order (#3000001) can never be changed again. It's closed, and there is nothing further to do with it.

However the balance of the original order, 0.6 lot, has been put into a NEW order that is LIVE (e.g. order #3000002). This is how an ECN broker like MBT handles partial closes, and so your EA better be written so that it detects and handles such things. My last post suggests to incorporate OrderComment() and that's how I think it can be done.

Good luck.
  • #8,142
  • Sep 24, 2011 10:33pm Sep 24, 2011 10:33pm
Quoting pips4life
When you work with an ECN broker like MBT, one should expect the possibility of partial fills and make sure your EA code knows how to handle it.

It seems to me your EA will need some enhancements in it to 1) Detect the partial close, and 2) Tell the EA to manage the new order# for the remaining open lots.

Personally I often do deliberate manual partial closes so I know how those work. I can only guess that forced-partial closes are handled in a similar way, which is that a comment is added to the original order that tells you the new order#...
Thank you for your advise. However the problem is that there is no volume/lots parameter in OrderModify command. I want to modify the TP/SL rather than closing it. It is not that hard to solve the problem if I can specify the volume/lots in the command.

Here is the OrderModify syntax:
Quote
bool OrderModify(int ticket, double price, double stoploss, double takeprofit, datetime expiration, color arrow_color=CLR_NONE)
  • #8,143
  • Sep 25, 2011 4:28am Sep 25, 2011 4:28am
Quoting pips4life
Perhaps you're missing my point... When you start with an original order (e.g. order #3000001) of, say 1.6 mini-lots size, and your EA TRIES to close all 1.6 lots but instead it only gets a partial close 1.0 lots, then yes THAT order (#3000001) can never be changed again. It's closed, and there is nothing further to do with it.

Good luck.
I exactly understand what you mean. Maybe my english is not good in expressing things, but I've written in the previous post that I can't modify partially closed orders from MT4 terminal MANUALLY (not from EA) - I choose order from the orders opened list, right mouse click, modify and get error

Regards
  • #8,144
  • Sep 26, 2011 1:29am Sep 26, 2011 1:29am
Quoting pavikogm
I exactly understand what you mean. Maybe my english is not good in expressing things, but I've written in the previous post that I can't modify partially closed orders from MT4 terminal MANUALLY (not from EA) - I choose order from the orders opened list, right mouse click, modify and get error

Regards
What you described sounds like a bug. If you have any open order (from an EA or a manual open) as shown in your Terminal window->Trade tab, and if you select that order and try to Close or Modify it and it doesn't let you, that is a SERIOUS bug that should be addressed by MBT MT4! One shouldn't have to call the Trade Desk to manage an open order because of a bug like this. (Justin, can you help look into this?)


Just for the record though, I can open an order manually, and then close it partially (by lowering the lot size when I click on "Close") which leaves the remaining lot(s) in a NEWLY-opened-order -- it has a new order#! I have no trouble to close this new order# or to modify it. Were your orders opened manually or by an EA? If by an EA, I wonder what is the difference? Does the EA change the Magic-number? I can't fathom why that should matter but it's one possible difference between an EA-opened order vs. a manual-opened order.


ForexQuant... while you may be running into the same issue, your description of the issue is confusing the heck out of me and seems off-track to me:

Quoting ForexQuant
The problem is that there is no volume/lots parameter in OrderModify command. I want to modify the TP/SL rather than closing it. It is not that hard to solve the problem if I can specify the volume/lots in the command.
You say you want "to modify the TP/SL rather than closing it." The syntax of the OrderModify command has exactly these fields in it to do what you want. (If you try to do so and get an error, then yes you're probably encountering the same error as pavicogm). But what has this to do with the lots parameter???

If you have an open order of any kind, the only way to change Lot size is to close it, either fully or partially.

If you have a PENDING order that hasn't yet been filled, then I can see how one might want to change the lot size, but it doesn't allow it. All you can do is Cancel the pending order, then open a new Pending order with the new size. (This is not a bug, it's just the way MT4 works).

But all this recent discussion has been about an already opened order of a given size that gets partially closed, leaving the still-open lot size in a new order.

Suppose you have a still-open order with 0.6 lots. How would you propose to use "OrderModify" to change this size?? If you wanted it to be smaller, you are simply closing some or all of it, so just use "OrderClose". If you wanted it to be bigger, you are simply opening another new trade with "OrderOpen" (and because it's a new trade it will have a new order# and
be managed separately). What else is there??

Whenever you have an existing order and you close any or part of it, then THE ORIGINAL order-number is finished, and there's nothing further you can do with it. If there's a remaining lot-size still open, it's in a brand new order with a new order-number. You'd have to do an OrderSelect of the new number, then you can (or should be able to) use OrderModify/OrderClose/etc. (If you can't, that's a bug).


I don't presently trade with EA's but I plan to, so this topic is of keen interest to me, but this post is mainly a repetition of the same ideas I already posted before. Not sure what else I can say... so it's up to MBT to respond now: Is this a bug with handling EA orders or not?
  • #8,145
  • Sep 26, 2011 6:16am Sep 26, 2011 6:16am
Quoting pips4life
What you described sounds like a bug. If you have any open order (from an EA or a manual open) as shown in your Terminal window->Trade tab, and if you select that order and try to Close or Modify it and it doesn't let you, that is a SERIOUS bug that should be addressed by MBT MT4! One shouldn't have to call the Trade Desk to manage an open order because of a bug like this. (Justin, can you help look into this?)


Just for the record though, I can open an order manually, and then close it partially (by lowering the lot size when I click...
Initially I thought the problem was caused by my EA but after I recheck and recheck and recheck, I know it is not. The problem simply happen whenever I issued a OrderModify command for the remaining open position. I am not sure whether the same problem will happen for OrderClose command because I did not use any OrderClose command in my EA.

MBT server has received the OrderModify instruction but the server try to modify 0 unit to a new price. The description on the desktop pro's orderbook window was "Trying to change to 0 @ 1.350500 (from 16000 @ 1.350750)" and the order was rejected because of the wrong lots size. So if there is no volume/lots parameter in OrderModify command then the problem must be caused by their MT4 bridge, isn't it?
  • #8,146
  • Sep 26, 2011 10:33am Sep 26, 2011 10:33am
Quoting ForexQuant
MBT server has received the OrderModify instruction but the server try to modify 0 unit to a new price. The description on the desktop pro's orderbook window was "Trying to change to 0 @ 1.350500 (from 16000 @ 1.350750)" and the order was rejected because of the wrong lots size. So if there is no volume/lots parameter in OrderModify command then the problem must be caused by their MT4 bridge, isn't it?
No it isn't. The lack of a volume/lots parameter has nothing to do with it, and that's not the problem at all.

This error message is exactly the correct error message I would expect if your EA has partially closed an order, and then attempted to do OrderModify of that same order-NUMBER. You can't modify it (or close it again) because you already closed it! Just because you partially closed the original order, you think it's still an open order with the lots-remaining in it, but you would be wrong: The original is closed, and the lots-remaining is now inside of a NEW order-NUMBER. Your EA must determine this new order#, then OrderSelect() it, and then it should work.

Your EA should capture the boolean status of your "OrderModify" command, something like "bool omstatus = OrderModify(...)". If "omstatus" is "False", then you have an error. Your code would then immediately run a line like "int errcode = GetLastError()" and then print out that errcode. If that error code were "136", that's the error code that means the server was "Off quotes". This is the bug that pavicogm was describing when he manually tried to close his order. If your code is getting this same error, you're likely encountering the same bug as he. If it's a different error, then proceed from there with a deeper investigation into your EA code.
  • #8,147
  • Sep 26, 2011 11:31am Sep 26, 2011 11:31am
Quoting pips4life
No it isn't. The lack of a volume/lots parameter has nothing to do with it, and that's not the problem at all.

This error message is exactly the correct error message I would expect if your EA has partially closed an order, and then attempted to do OrderModify of that same order-NUMBER. You can't modify it (or close it again) because you already closed it! Just because you partially closed the original order, you think it's still an open order with the lots-remaining in it, but you would be wrong: The original is closed, and the lots-remaining...
You made me feel like a newbie in programming!

I want to emphasize that I did not use OrderClose command at all! It was a limit order and the position was partially filled by other traders.

The error occurred precisely when this line of code is executed. The error message was off quote in MT4 as I mentioned early. If I did not use OrderSelect then you tell me how i get the value for OrderTicket(), OrderOpenPrice(), OrderStopLoss()?

Quote
OrderModify(OrderTicket(), OrderOpenPrice(), OrderStopLoss(), NewTP, 0);

Please try it for yourself in live MBT MT4 before you accusing me. Thank you!
  • #8,148
  • Sep 26, 2011 2:49pm Sep 26, 2011 2:49pm
I put this question again in this thread (there was no reply before).

Could MBT add to MT4 platform instruments like SP500, GOLD, SILVER, USD INDEX, EUR INDEX etc, etc. for global markets situation review (UNTRADEABLE)?
I`m really tired jumping from MBT MT4 to other brokers MT4s to see that.

Waiting for MBT reply.....
  • #8,149
  • Sep 26, 2011 3:12pm Sep 26, 2011 3:12pm
Quoting ForexQuant
You made me feel like a newbie in programming!
From your other posts which I glanced at, you're not a "newbie" at trading, and you offer intelligent comments on various topics which I respect.

That said, I don't know what your programming skills are. 4 years ago, I was an MT4 newbie programmer, but by now I'm fairly experienced having written dozens of programs, some up to 25K lines of code. But even so, I don't know it all, and am still learning myself.

If you were to post your EA -- which you may very well decline to do and that's Ok -- then I wouldn't have to guess what's in your code to offer you suggestions.

I do feel pretty confident that your focus on wanting a lots-parameter in OrderModify is off-track and shows some lack of understanding about how orders work. But my saying so is not intended as an insult of any kind. I would say that the exact same statement applies back to me too. I have some lack of understanding too, but neither of us are newbies.

Quote
I want to emphasize that I did not use OrderClose command at all! It was a limit order and the position was partially filled by other traders.

Ok, I see. I should have caught onto this detail earlier but missed it. The "detail" is that price hit your T/P (or S/L) level and you expected the entire order to close but it only filled partially.

First off, when you say "It was a limit order", be careful with the terminology. A "T/P" (or "S/L") close is NOT a true "BUY_LIMIT" or "SELL_LIMIT" type order, but rather it means your T/P (or S/L) level was hit at which point MT4 is supposed to enter a MARKET order to close your entire order. It only *partially* closed your order and this I would consider to be a bug.

Quote
The error occurred precisely when this line of code is executed. The error message was off quote in MT4 as I mentioned early. If I did not use OrderSelect then you tell me how i get the value for OrderTicket(), OrderOpenPrice(), OrderStopLoss()?

Do this for me: Go into your MT4 Terminal -> Account History.
Find the exact order that partially close $10K at price 1.350750. It's going to have a lot size of "1.00" even though the original order was 1.60 lot. Use right-click to display the "Comment" column. Does the comment for that order say something like "to #3000002" (substitute the real order number).

Find the 2nd order that represents the 0.6 remaining lot. I presume you had to call the Trading Desk to close this order, right? Regardless, does that order have a comment that says "Split from #3000001" (where this # is the order# for the ABOVE original order).

If either of these two orders does NOT have the comments described, then it's an MBT MT4 bug that your EA code would have a difficult time to deal with, although I'm certain it can be detected if your code is clever enough. (See my earlier posts).

If it *does* have those comments, then your EA code can certainly be modified to look for the problem if it occurs, and to *try* to close the NEW order# (in this example, #3000002). If it is unable to do so, this is another separate bug.

Quote
Please try it for yourself in live MBT MT4 before you accusing me. Thank you!

I'm not "accusing" anyone... just trying to help.

Though I trade live (manual orders only, no EA), I haven't run into this, and partial fills for T/P or S/L closes are probably very rare, yes? I'm unlikely to be able to reproduce it myself.

I did, however, encounter a related problem on the day of the flash crash. I opened a Market sell order which took forever (~2min) to fill so I clicked on "Cancel" of the order. I thought it was cancelled, but was appalled when a live order popped into my window and at a lousy price AFTER the market was bouncing off the lows. I then clicked on "Close" of the 2.0 lot order which again took minutes to do anything but it only closed 1.0 lot! AFTER several minutes, a live order popped into my window with the remaining 1.0 lot. I was able to click on "Close" and it did eventually work. It taught me a lesson that MBT MT4 market orders during extreme conditions are very dangerous and likely to go against you! (I filed a ticket with MBT but they did nothing about it, sad to say). That was a couple years ago, so I just moved on.

Back to the issue at hand...

*IF* my understanding of what you & pavikogm have encountered is correct, then my description of the bug(s) would be:


"I opened an order and set both T/P and S/L levels. Price hit my T/P (or S/L) level and it was supposed to close my entire order at market price, but it didn't. Instead it closed only a fraction of the order, and it left a remaining-lots order open. It must close the entire order, even if that means at multiple prices which are then averaged. Leaving a portion still open is bug#1. Furthermore, this remaining order cannot be modified or closed! Attempting to do so gets an "Off quotes" error message. This is bug#2. The only way to close the remaining order is to call the Trading Desk to manually close it, and this is unacceptable. MBT, please fix both these problems."

P.S. After you inspect your Account History and look at the "Comment" column, if your original and partial trades do NOT have the "to #" and "Split from #" comments, that would be bug#3.
  • #8,150
  • Sep 26, 2011 3:31pm Sep 26, 2011 3:31pm
Quoting pips4life
A "T/P" (or "S/L") close is NOT a true "BUY_LIMIT" or "SELL_LIMIT" type order, but rather it means your T/P (or S/L) level was hit at which point MT4 is supposed to enter a MARKET order to close your entire order.
Well...all I can say is that my MBTrading version of MT4 does not operate as you describe.

From MBTrading web site:

We currently employ the following behavior for Stop Loss (S/L) and Take Profit (T/P) items. If you have only a S/L, the bridge monitors the positions and waits for the price to hit, then sends a market order to our router. If you have only a T/P, the bridge sends a Limit order, which will display to the market in the quote, to the ECN, which awaits execution. You would be paid for this execution under our Get Paid for Limit Orders system. If you have both a S/L and a T/P, the system sends the T/P to the ECN as a Limit order, which will display to the market in the quote. If that order is filled, the trade is closed. If the S/L price hits instead, the system cancels the Limit order for the T/P and then sends a market order to close.
  • #8,151
  • Sep 26, 2011 4:52pm Sep 26, 2011 4:52pm
Quoting zznbrm
Well...all I can say is that my MBTrading version of MT4 does not operate as you describe.

From MBTrading web site:

[size=3]We currently employ the following behavior for Stop Loss (S/L) and Take Profit (T/P) items. If you have only a S/L, the bridge monitors the positions and waits for the price to hit, then sends a market order to our router. If you have only a T/P, the bridge sends a Limit order, which will display to the market in the quote, to the ECN, which awaits execution. You would be paid for this execution under our Get Paid...
Ok, I'm glad to be corrected. Maybe my understanding was the way it used to be before the "Get Paid for Limit Orders", or perhaps I'm just flat out wrong about the way it is AND the way it used to be.

This paragraph then makes the behavior make more sense. There is no "bug#1" per my previous post. The fact of partial fills with a T/P is far more understandable since it's a true Limit order. This means that it is essential to write code in EA's that watches out for this exact situation.

ForexQuant, please reply with what you find in the "Comment" column. Do the orders (the original and the remainder) have the "to #" and "Split from #" comments? (If yes, there is no "bug#3" I described; if no, it's a bug).

That would leave "bug#2" to be fixed. (Unable to close or modify an order due to an "Off quotes" error message).
  • #8,152
  • Edited 7:42pm Sep 26, 2011 7:22pm | Edited 7:42pm
Quoting pips4life
If you were to post your EA -- which you may very well decline to do and that's Ok -- then I wouldn't have to guess what's in your code to offer you suggestions.
I can summarize order management parts.

Inserted Code
for(i = 0; i < iTotalOrders; i++)
{
   bModifyTP == IsNewTP() // IsNewTP is a custom function
   if(OrderSelect(i, SELECT_BY_POS) == true)
   {
      switch(OrderType())
      {
         case OP_BUY:
         if(bModifyTP == true)
         {
            bOrderModified = OrderModify(OrderTicket(), OrderOpenPrice(), OrderStopLoss(), dNewTP, 0);
            if(bOrderModified == false) 
            {
               sLastErrorMsg = StringConcatenate("Unable to modify BUY order #", OrderTicket(), " to new TP: ", dTrailingTP, ". Error description: ", ErrorDescription(GetLastError()));
            }
         }
         break;
      }
   }
}

Quote
"I opened an order and set both T/P and S/L levels. Price hit my T/P (or S/L) level and it was supposed to close my entire order at market price, but it didn't. Instead it closed only a fraction of the order, and it left a remaining-lots order open. It must close the entire order, even if that means at multiple prices which are then averaged. Leaving a portion still open is bug#1. Furthermore, this remaining order cannot be modified or closed! Attempting to do so gets an "Off quotes" error message. This is bug#2. The only way to close the remaining...

It does not have to close the entire order because our limit order may be partially taken by other traders but not send to their LP.

Quote
ForexQuant, please reply with what you find in the "Comment" column. Do the orders (the original and the remainder) have the "to #" and "Split from #" comments? (If yes, there is no "bug#3" I described; if no, it's a bug).

That would leave "bug#2" to be fixed. (Unable to close or modify an order due to an "Off quotes" error message).

There is no split order in my case because the price finally hit my original TP before I managed to call trading desk to 'unlock' my order.

Quote
I did, however, encounter a related problem on the day of the flash crash. I opened a Market sell order which took forever (~2min) to fill so I clicked on "Cancel" of the order. I thought it was cancelled, but was appalled when a live order popped into my window and at a lousy price AFTER the market was bouncing off the lows. I then clicked on "Close" of the 2.0 lot order which again took minutes to do anything but it only closed 1.0 lot! AFTER several minutes, a live order popped into my window with the remaining 1.0 lot. I was able to click on "Close" and it did eventually work. It taught me a lesson that MBT MT4 market orders during extreme conditions are very dangerous and likely to go against you! (I filed a ticket with MBT but they did nothing about it, sad to say). That was a couple years ago, so I just moved on.

I would say never ever try to place a market/stop order with MBT MT4 especially when market is volatile. You are gonna mad with the slippage even the order goes through properly.
  • #8,153
  • Sep 26, 2011 11:46pm Sep 26, 2011 11:46pm
Quoting ForexQuant
There is no split order in my case because the price finally hit my original TP before I managed to call trading desk to 'unlock' my order.
Hi ForexQuant,

If you went into your Account History and you actually did find just a single line with "1.60" lots that was in fact closed in two separate actions, then I'm out of suggestions for you. I was expecting that the original-order would be closed as 1.0 lot, and the remaining partial-lot 0.6 would be in a new order# and separately closed. If MBT MT4 were to split up the orders, my code suggestions would apply.

As I said in my first post, this is how manual-partial-closes work, and I said I made a "guess" that this was how forced T/P partial-closes were handled as well, but if you see only a single line in your Account History for an order that was filled in two separate actions, then I'm surprised but it means apparently my "guess" is wrong.

In my opinion, a true bug exists since your order was only partially filled and you couldn't manage the remaining balance. MBT should fix it. The only consolation may be that it's probably a fairly rare occurrence to have a partial-fill on a T/P level, right? Price would likely have to peak at the same exact level as your T/P, because if price runs through the level, you're virtually certain to get a complete fill.

Pavicogm, would you please do the same check of your Account History for whatever order you saw the problem with. Was the original order split into two orders? If yes, does the Comments column have the "to #" and "from #" comments with the two order numbers? Or like ForexQuant, do you only see a single line with the total amount, and no comment?
  • #8,154
  • Sep 27, 2011 12:31am Sep 27, 2011 12:31am
Quoting pips4life
Hi ForexQuant,

If you went into your Account History and you actually did find just a single line with "1.60" lots that was in fact closed in two separate actions, then I'm out of suggestions for you. I was expecting that the original-order would be closed as 1.0 lot, and the remaining partial-lot 0.6 would be in a new order# and separately closed. If MBT MT4 were to split up the orders, my code suggestions would apply.

As I said in my first post, this is how manual-partial-closes work, and I said I made a "guess" that this was how forced...
There is no split order if the limit order is partially taken by different traders at the same price. I got hundreds of orders that partially taken by different traders but only got one ticket number.

Yes you are right. Most of the time the price will run through the level therefore it is rare to have such a problem. However this does not mean that we should ignore the minor bugs. You will never know that one day the price may not go through your TP but run ahead to your SL. The worst case is that their trade server may not execute your SL order because it has been 'locked' and the price surges 800pips beyond your SL.
  • #8,155
  • Sep 27, 2011 6:43am Sep 27, 2011 6:43am
sept all most over
  • #8,156
  • Sep 27, 2011 7:33am Sep 27, 2011 7:33am
Dear MBT,

Please tell me, what is your spread markup?

Thanks
  • #8,157
  • Sep 27, 2011 7:55am Sep 27, 2011 7:55am
Quoting pips4life
Pavicogm, would you please do the same check of your Account History for whatever order you saw the problem with. Was the original order split into two orders? If yes, does the Comments column have the "to #" and "from #" comments with the two order numbers? Or like ForexQuant, do you only see a single line with the total amount, and no comment?
I'll clarify what I meant by "partially closed" - it's the same as ForexQuant. It was partially closed not by me, but by other party (so it hit my TP, but only part was closed). The remaining opened part has a comment with #xxxxx, so it's split and I see in history window what size was closed and when.
I can't modify remaining opened order, but I can close it, MBT is able to close in on TP or SL (so it's "only" modification error). When it is closed it is merged in history windows with previously closed part (so there is no 2 orders in history - I think it's being addressed now with new version on MBT MT4 demo platform).
This situation is happening to me about 1-2 times a week Not a big problem, but who knows what can happen later. Instead of modifying order I have to stare at screen at keep watch to close order myself when my "new" target is hit.
  • #8,158
  • Sep 27, 2011 8:25am Sep 27, 2011 8:25am
Quoting PoundTrader
sept all most over
Gotta be Friday then.

My guess: new pricing is $19.95/M vs. 29.95/M + rebates.
  • #8,159
  • Sep 27, 2011 2:23pm Sep 27, 2011 2:23pm
Do anyone know if MB Trading offer PAM like dukascopy?
  • #8,160
  • Sep 27, 2011 5:52pm Sep 27, 2011 5:52pm
Are they going to wait until Sept 30? Then they should've said "coming Sept 30."

This better be epic.
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