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Where is the EDGE in trading? The most important thing in trading!

  • #821
  • Aug 22, 2011 3:47am Aug 22, 2011 3:47am
Quoting in_drag88
Edges in trading?
Here I share some of mine :
1. Most of the time, price always move in 2 direction, up and down simultaneously
2. My broker who provides leveraged account type
3. Market is being moved by people, most of them are viewing charts, any kind of charts
I would challenge that the market moves up and down simultaneously.

In a DECLINE the high price extreme (or established session high so far as some refer to it) remains static (does not get higher) and will not until the market has found support on its current decline (has moved down to a price beyond which it can go lower). While in decline then all attempts to rise should result in lower highs below the session high extreme. So any move UP aginst the DECLINE is just retracement and is normal. It is these moves UP against the decline that may offer further opportunties to SELL into the decline until it notifies a conclusion (support).

In a RISING market the low price extreme (or established low so far) remains static (does not get lower) and will not until the market has run into resistance on its current rise. While rising then all attempts to decline should result in higher lows above the session low extreme. So any move down against the RISE is just retracement and is normal. It is these moves DOWN against the rise that may offer further opportunties to BUY into the rise until the rise notifies a conclusion (resistance).

Pure Price Action trading allows you to have an informed idea about where that support or resistance may be encountered.............notified/confirmed by the extent of retrace against the current prevailing move.

Happy Trading

makingpips
  • #822
  • Aug 22, 2011 4:26am Aug 22, 2011 4:26am
good morning traders from uk, i hope your new trading weeks ok
i've had a nice start. i agree with the fact that you yourself is an edge as at the end of the day you have the final say if you trade or not, you just need the right trading plan and stick with it and use your common sense. Do you agree with me that the market is totally random to us traders due to it being loaded by the big institutes, ie its not random to them because they make it, just a thought. happy days
SEE LINE,TRADE LINE..PRICE HAS TO GO SOMEWHERE,,, PRICE WILL GO SOMEWHERE.
  • #823
  • Aug 22, 2011 4:44am Aug 22, 2011 4:44am
Quoting billytt
good morning traders from uk, i hope your new trading weeks ok
i've had a nice start. i agree with the fact that you yourself is an edge as at the end of the day you have the final say if you trade or not, you just need the right trading plan and stick with it and use your common sense. Do you agree with me that the market is totally random to us traders due to it being loaded by the big institutes, ie its not random to them because they make it, just a thought. happy days
If by random you mean that you do not know what will happen then NO I do not agree.

If totally random as you imply how on earth could anyone decide on a course of action to take.

I am not a fan of entering a trade and crossing my fingers which is what I would be doing if markets were completely random.

makingpips
  • #824
  • Aug 22, 2011 5:43am Aug 22, 2011 5:43am
Quoting CrucialPoint
I have to disagree with this one

If you come and train with the Pros, you realize that they tirelessly practice and perfect their techniques, hours on end. It's years of perfecting "techniques" and not "discretion" IMHO. The other thing is they don't give away their techniques so easily or at all. It is a competition, why would you hand the opposition something that could destroy you? (metaphorically)

I, personally, could honest say that I don't trade through discretion. I wouldn't be surprise that other real profitable traders use...
I am with you CrucialPoint.
If anything I would add that discretion would add indecision.
I stick to a set of hard and fast rules for entry/exit/stop.
Same rules apply to any market I trade.
They are embedded, they are obejective.
Discretion would only add subjectivity.

makingpips
  • #825
  • Aug 22, 2011 10:39am Aug 22, 2011 10:39am
Quoting hanover
But everybody who trades has these 'advantages'. So what you're saying, is that everybody who trades is guaranteed to be profitable.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, namely that your comments were intended as a clever joke.
Don't take it wrong, even though everybody possess these edges doesn't guarantee profit for them. It takes something more than edges to be able profiting from market, and my suggestion is "less is more".

  • #826
  • Aug 22, 2011 10:49am Aug 22, 2011 10:49am
Quoting makingpips
I would challenge that the market moves up and down simultaneously.

In a DECLINE the high price extreme (or established session high so far as some refer to it) remains static (does not get higher) and will not until the market has found support on its current decline (has moved down to a price beyond which it can go lower). While in decline then all attempts to rise should result in lower highs below the session high extreme. So any move UP aginst the DECLINE is just retracement and is normal. It is these moves UP against the decline that may...
okay, I wrote "most of the time", and of course you can't profiting every seconds from the market movement. Keep studying your pure PA or sugar free TA, because only by doing that someday sooner or later you will know something isn't right about them
  • #827
  • Aug 22, 2011 11:14am Aug 22, 2011 11:14am
Quoting egadsforex
If I may be so bold: Oh Really ! Then where did all the great innovation/advancement of the last 50 years (or whatever) come from.
Did countless millions of people manage to find their way out of a wet paper bag and create wealth beyond imagination?

Supposedly, you are a great trader. I beg the question; how can you be such a great trader and have such a negative attitude? This does not go hand-in-hand. I have read a few of your posts where you seem to be somewhat intelligent.

The preceding post is not one of them.

Thank you.
My problem with this is that every time I put my stoploss just behind the workbench in my garage I hit the damn thing every time I race back from work.

Still trying to find a good place to put that thing.. also my entry is poor.. I keep leaving from my house and my car never travels past 100 pipping miles.. I can never catch that big trend..

anyways just my two cents.. I'm going to add a few indicators to my car and see if a new gps will help me out or something.

Best wishes,
NY
  • #828
  • Aug 22, 2011 11:19am Aug 22, 2011 11:19am
Quoting makingpips
I am with you CrucialPoint.
If anything I would add that discretion would add indecision.
I stick to a set of hard and fast rules for entry/exit/stop.
Same rules apply to any market I trade.
They are embedded, they are obejective.
Discretion would only add subjectivity.

makingpips
CP sticks to hard and fast rules for entry, exit, stop.. but he also has 6 of those rules if I read him correctly.

Everyone else on FF has such a nice liner thought process as to what to do in trading.. something to ponder
  • #829
  • Aug 22, 2011 11:37am Aug 22, 2011 11:37am
thanks for the reply Makingpips, i didnt quite make my point. gbp/usd for the last 18 months has been going up fact so it isn't random. so infact every trader shouldn't lose lol. but it goes down a lot as well thats the random bit. if you trade resistance/support for instance the pips dont just get to the mark then turn sometimes they go past or to or just below then turn or wayhay break out, trading can be so contradicting. Today i took 300 pips trading with then against the trends, i go off time not drawings but my question is i do think trading is random if you dont have a massive stop loss, happy days
SEE LINE,TRADE LINE..PRICE HAS TO GO SOMEWHERE,,, PRICE WILL GO SOMEWHERE.
  • #830
  • Aug 22, 2011 5:06pm Aug 22, 2011 5:06pm
Actually you are saying with these 3 points that profitable trading no matter technical or fundamental is not possible, at least you are saying for sure that trading is all random even in case traders have positive results.

I just can`t agree with you. Professional trading is not random, no matter are trades placed on technical or fundamental reasons, also the outcome is not random due to that.

Technical analyses makes a lot sense as well as the price action which is also part of technical analyses. Patterns are recognizable, these show up again and again and there`s no question about the edges that these provide. It is so true that people see things differently no matter are they using the same tools or different ones, but as time goes you`ll become more experienced and you gonna see the things more and more similarly to people who also has more experience and these are the guys who get the profit out of movements which they can anticipate more often than not. In case you belong to them you are profitable, otherwise you are loser at the end of a day or you`re just a lucky winner with no fair reasoning behind your trades. Systems/methodologies can be absolutely different, but it does not matter cause the same information can be given in many ways.



Fundamental analyses makes also sense and can be used profitable in many ways (long-term, short-term or even for scalping). It all boils down to experience and that what makes the accounts grow in a long run.

No system/methodology/price action/fundamental knowledge... gives the edge to make money in long run in case you have no experience concerning specific approach. You can`t take somebody`s profitable system and to get the same positive outcome without experience. It takes time and lots of dedication to make it and therefore for example it is not possible to give you a technical system to prove its validity.

Your thread shows clearly that you are just starting out and starting off on the wrong foot for sure. All the best anyway !
  • #831
  • Aug 22, 2011 6:02pm Aug 22, 2011 6:02pm
Quoting billytt
thanks for the reply Makingpips, i didnt quite make my point. gbp/usd for the last 18 months has been going up fact so it isn't random. so infact every trader shouldn't lose lol. but it goes down a lot as well thats the random bit. if you trade resistance/support for instance the pips dont just get to the mark then turn sometimes they go past or to or just below then turn or wayhay break out, trading can be so contradicting. Today i took 300 pips trading with then against the trends, i go off time not drawings but my question is i do think trading...
In 10 years the probability of 18 months trend up consecutively is 0.02% (if the market was a coinflip/random)

just adding to what you said
  • #832
  • Aug 23, 2011 4:21am Aug 23, 2011 4:21am
Quoting in_drag88
okay, I wrote "most of the time", and of course you can't profiting every seconds from the market movement. Keep studying your pure PA or sugar free TA, because only by doing that someday sooner or later you will know something isn't right about them
You gave your view of the markets I gave mine. It was nothing personal against you or your approach. If your approach works great.

My approach works (have been doing it exactly the same now for 8+ years) so I care little for what others think about it.

I trade for a living/income/profit not for the respect of other traders or any medals.
There are plenty of ways to skin a cat so I acknowledge others get results from completely different approaches.

I maintain the view that the markets cannot be moving UP and DOWN simultaneously.........not even sometimes. Retracement against the current move is what creates movement in the opposite direction and is normal, to be anticipated UNTIL the current move concludes.

makingpips
  • #833
  • Aug 23, 2011 4:27am Aug 23, 2011 4:27am
Quoting newyear498
CP sticks to hard and fast rules for entry, exit, stop.. but he also has 6 of those rules if I read him correctly.

Everyone else on FF has such a nice liner thought process as to what to do in trading.. something to ponder
Yeah mine translate into about the same number as CP.
No idea how similiar or different they are !!!

Most important rule WHEN NOT TO TRADE. It is often overlooked.

Cheers

makingpips
  • #834
  • Aug 23, 2011 4:33am Aug 23, 2011 4:33am
Quoting billytt
thanks for the reply Makingpips, i didnt quite make my point. gbp/usd for the last 18 months has been going up fact so it isn't random. so infact every trader shouldn't lose lol. but it goes down a lot as well thats the random bit. if you trade resistance/support for instance the pips dont just get to the mark then turn sometimes they go past or to or just below then turn or wayhay break out, trading can be so contradicting. Today i took 300 pips trading with then against the trends, i go off time not drawings but my question is i do think trading...
I don't consult the longer term trade unless trading longer term.
I would never trade with a massive stop loss either.Not even longer term.

Intra day...........daily chart what is it doing today. Longer term trend can be irrelevant as you know and have demonstrated.

makingpips
  • #835
  • Aug 23, 2011 5:00am Aug 23, 2011 5:00am
Quoting makingpips
You gave your view of the markets I gave mine. It was nothing personal against you or your approach. If your approach works great.

My approach works (have been doing it exactly the same now for 8+ years) so I care little for what others think about it.

I trade for a living/income/profit not for the respect of other traders or any medals.
There are plenty of ways to skin a cat so I acknowledge others get results from completely different approaches.

I maintain the view that the markets cannot be moving UP and DOWN simultaneously.........not...
Also having no offense, happy trading
  • #836
  • Aug 23, 2011 5:11am Aug 23, 2011 5:11am
goodmorning all from uk. i agree with you Making pips i trade with what i know will happen not from past history. i have nightmares with the trend is your friend idea plus small stop losses lol.When does the trend start ?Like elliot wave system, you can have waves within waves so trends can be within trends or is it just random. I'm 120 pips down today but hey ho it'll change, happy days
SEE LINE,TRADE LINE..PRICE HAS TO GO SOMEWHERE,,, PRICE WILL GO SOMEWHERE.
  • #837
  • Aug 23, 2011 5:27am Aug 23, 2011 5:27am
Quoting billytt
goodmorning all from uk. i agree with you Making pips i trade with what i know will happen not from past history. i have nightmares with the trend is your friend idea plus small stop losses lol.When does the trend start ?Like elliot wave system, you can have waves within waves so trends can be within trends or is it just random. I'm 120 pips down today but hey ho it'll change, happy days
It is refershing to see someone posting a loss.
We cannot win all of the time.
As you know tomorrow is another day if not rescued today.
I'll swerve the elliott wave discussion. We could be here all day.


makingpips
  • #838
  • Aug 23, 2011 6:00am Aug 23, 2011 6:00am
re Elliot theory, me too Making pips.i mentioned elliot theory as something to relate too ie waves within waves within waves its contradictory in my humble opinion same as being over bought/sold, how much over bought/sold does it take to reverse lol,now i'm getting back to massive stop losses oops. i only ever have 40 pips stop loss and the way i trade and get results i could possibly lower that a touch anyway good trading, happy days
SEE LINE,TRADE LINE..PRICE HAS TO GO SOMEWHERE,,, PRICE WILL GO SOMEWHERE.
  • #839
  • Aug 23, 2011 6:04am Aug 23, 2011 6:04am
Quoting billytt
re Elliot theory, me too Making pips.i mentioned elliot theory as something to relate too ie waves within waves within waves its contradictory in my humble opinion same as being over bought/sold, how much over bought/sold does it take to reverse lol,now i'm getting back to massive stop losses oops. i only ever have 40 pips stop loss and the way i trade and get results i could possibly lower that a touch anyway good trading, happy days
So you don't trade with trend? your a range trader or you simple ignore the concept of trends and ranges all together?
  • #840
  • Aug 23, 2011 6:35am Aug 23, 2011 6:35am
thats it Newyear, i'm lead to believe trend is your friend but howcome so many people get wiped out, thats my point about market being random. Howcome so many ways to trade msa cross overs,elliot, resistance/support, volume, stars lol etc etc. When i trade, sometimes it just happens to be with the trend and sometimes against, with me its a matter of timing it doesnt matter what the trend is but i do use common sense and i am doing well with it, happy days
SEE LINE,TRADE LINE..PRICE HAS TO GO SOMEWHERE,,, PRICE WILL GO SOMEWHERE.
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