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  • #442,401
  • May 16, 2011 12:59am May 16, 2011 12:59am
If wealth can just simply disappear than it is a false sence of wealth that never existed in the first place. True wealth just does not magically vanish into thin air.

Someone else has it now.
  • #442,402
  • May 16, 2011 1:01am May 16, 2011 1:01am
Quoting Traderji
Ah i see you are just trolling. never mind carry on.
Nope!

Try again.

Instead of insults, refute the post that I have made.
  • #442,403
  • May 16, 2011 1:07am May 16, 2011 1:07am
Quoting Astroman
If wealth can just simply disappear than it is a false sence of wealth that never existed in the first place. True wealth just does not magically vanish into thin air.

Someone else has it now.

You can have capital gain and you can have capital loss too. In 1999 gold was worth ~US200/ounce. It rose to ~US1800 in 2002-03. That was capital gain.
Then it started falling in value all the way down to ~US400 by 2006. That was capital loss.

Wealth can be created and wealth can be lost.
We're all stories in the end. Just try to make it a good one.
  • #442,404
  • May 16, 2011 1:08am May 16, 2011 1:08am
Quoting Astroman
Nope!

Try again.

Instead of insults, refute the post that I have made.

There is no person C or D. In that simple example, it was a two person economy that showed how decline in value of an asset can lead to loss of wealth/money. It is easy enough to scale that example to any number of players in the economy. Whether you invest in a physical asset or financial asset or hold paper money, it is quite possible that by the end of the day you will be worth less than what you started with.
We're all stories in the end. Just try to make it a good one.
  • #442,405
  • May 16, 2011 1:12am May 16, 2011 1:12am
Quoting Traderji
There is no person C or D. In that simple example, it was a two person economy that showed how decline in value of an asset can lead to loss of wealth/money.
Two person economies do not exist. Great lecture for the classroom I will admit though.
  • #442,406
  • May 16, 2011 1:15am May 16, 2011 1:15am
Quoting Astroman
If wealth can just simply disappear than it is a false sence of wealth that never existed in the first place. True wealth just does not magically vanish into thin air.

Someone else has it now.
There you have your answer which is inline with Traderji and me
  • #442,407
  • May 16, 2011 1:16am May 16, 2011 1:16am
Quoting Astroman
Person C & D have a Short position on said shares.
Think again about naked shorting......., then try again.....
  • #442,408
  • May 16, 2011 1:18am May 16, 2011 1:18am
Quoting Astroman
Two person economies do not exist. Great lecture for the classroom I will admit though.

Ok I'll dumb it down some more for you. Let's say some smart punters get their shorts in and manage to make money of the decline in value of the stock. But what you are failing to consider is that there is only a few handful of people who shorted but the decline in stock value is affecting *all* the shareholders of the company who are now collectively and individually worth less than they were yesterday.

So to repeat, some people made money but a vastly bigger number of people lost money. Net effect is the money lost in the economy.
We're all stories in the end. Just try to make it a good one.
  • #442,409
  • May 16, 2011 1:18am May 16, 2011 1:18am
Quoting Traderji
. Whether you invest in a physical asset or financial asset or hold paper money, it is quite possible that by the end of the day you will be worth less than what you started with.
Very true.

Conversely, another party will end the day with more than what they started as a direct result of that transaction.
  • #442,410
  • May 16, 2011 1:18am May 16, 2011 1:18am
Quoting Astroman
Two person economies do not exist. Great lecture for the classroom I will admit though.
If you can not / will not understand the easy modell, you will not understand our complex answers. That easy it is ........
  • #442,411
  • May 16, 2011 1:21am May 16, 2011 1:21am
Quoting Astroman
Very true.

Conversely, another party will end the day with more than what they started as a direct result of that transaction.


Man, how wrong can you be?

If two entities agreed yesterday of say 1500 USD for an ounce of Gold, and today the fixing of the price of Gold is 1400 USD (some entities agreed on that price), so who profited from this drop now?
  • #442,412
  • May 16, 2011 1:25am May 16, 2011 1:25am
Quoting freelancer
Here is what I see on the daily:
Nice chart...

DOWN SIDE i CAN SAY MANY #s but for the upside to happen 1.4476 -1.4525 needs to break
Markets are not Random, they are designed!
  • #442,413
  • May 16, 2011 1:26am May 16, 2011 1:26am
Quoting Traderji

So to repeat, some people made money but a vastly bigger number of people lost money.
I do not disagree with that statement.


Quote
Net effect is the money lost in the economy.

Overall I agree. One reason I do not is to those were the wealth has been transferred to will not put it to productive use of society as a whole but rather use it for mainly selfish and potentially destructive devices that harm society as a whole.

Paper money?

Does this not mean that all paper currency is ultimately worthless?
  • #442,414
  • May 16, 2011 1:28am May 16, 2011 1:28am
wow i got bored and started snooping about in Cloggies old posts when he first got on these boards

he was super nice, informative, helpful, etc...

my question is what she-devil turned him into a condescending, mean spirited ass?


cause only a woman can do that to a guy... siriously
  • #442,415
  • May 16, 2011 1:31am May 16, 2011 1:31am
Quoting infinitus
Man, how wrong can you be?

If two entities agreed yesterday of say 1500 USD for an ounce of Gold, and today the fixing of the price of Gold is 1400 USD (some entities agreed on that price), so who profited from this drop now?
The party who had the Short position.

If 2 parties agreed that the price of Gold was going to increase they would not be doing business with each other.

No.

They will seeking out deals (trades) with those who believed the price would fall. After haggling over the price a transaction takes place. A market.

If everybody believes that the price of Gold is going to rise there is no liquidity, thus no market.
  • #442,416
  • May 16, 2011 1:39am May 16, 2011 1:39am
Quoting Astroman
I do not disagree with that statement.

Overall I agree. One reason I do not is to those were the wealth has been transferred to will not put it to productive use of society as a whole but rather use it for mainly selfish and potentially destructive devices that harm society as a whole.

Paper money?

Does this not mean that all paper currency is ultimately worthless?
Morning all,

Perhaps the discussion is going too much to the theoretical and academic side. In economics, the concept wealth is wide and differs from the line of thought, time, economic historic circumstance (from mercantilism [gold and metals] to Marxism [capital, labaour and land] to liberalism [market value] behavioral economics [human capital] or even sustainable economics [natural resources sustainability] .... However, and in the context of the thread and discussion the only important one is the market value (objective [stock valuation or real macro numbers], subjective [expected or potential value facebook? stocks, futures, options and derivates in general, US bonds?] or speculative [forex? Porsche and Volkswagen last year? or most of the speculative financial transactions? or any other assets hold by a person/company) .... so in that sense IMO, traderji and infinitus make a clear case....

In any case, what is the thread views for this week on the pair?

good luck to all

sisse
Pending conversations? PM for a chat...I am mainly in OTM now
  • #442,417
  • May 16, 2011 1:43am May 16, 2011 1:43am
Morning.

Leaving it alone unless I see a move to the upside then I will begin to think Short.

No Longs no matter what for this week.
  • #442,418
  • Edited 2:12am May 16, 2011 1:43am | Edited 2:12am
it seems bullish WILL win .
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A chart helps those who can read it.
  • #442,419
  • May 16, 2011 1:44am May 16, 2011 1:44am
not to wanna butt in, but you're not being logical...
you've bought a house for 100k cash based on current valuation, not based on what you would get if u sold every brick to the market, tmrw, the valuation drops to 80k, if you now had to sell, you would have 80k in cash, you've lost 20k...nobody has physically gained any money, now times get desperate and you sell every asset of that house, ie. its true worth, bricks, roofing, metal and u only get 20k, so you now have lost 80k in cash...nobody has gained, u have individually lost money
  • #442,420
  • May 16, 2011 1:47am May 16, 2011 1:47am
. I think traderji made a very simple and sound arguement
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