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MB Trading Futures - Introduction

  • #6,501
  • Feb 10, 2011 11:33am Feb 10, 2011 11:33am
Quoting dr_who
Sorry, I don't understand that logic. I use the SuperDOM on NinjaTrader and place my entries and exits at exactly the points I want them to be, which is usually in between the spread. I cannot see how its possible this will lose me pips. But I'm always willing to learn.
Because no matter what, there's always a trade at some point that moves away from you. If you imply that 100% of your trades are limit orders, then that means you aren't using stops. At some point, that will blow you up.
  • #6,502
  • Feb 10, 2011 11:33am Feb 10, 2011 11:33am
Quoting dr_who
That's an interesting fact that I wasn't aware of, so thanks. Any idea which market feed that a smallish retail trader can get hold of would start at that time ?
Other than futures/options dealers and some platforms that require $50K to open an account (ie., MarexFX, LCG) Oanda is the only one that comes to mind.
  • #6,503
  • Feb 10, 2011 11:39am Feb 10, 2011 11:39am
Dr.Who: With limit-orders you have price-certainty but no execution-certainty. With market-orders its the other way round.

With limits you get a better price but incur opportunity cost. Miss an enitre profitable trade and compare that to savings on price-improvement and commission-savings. With marketorders you get a worse price and pay more commissions, but wont miss trades. Pick your disease..
  • #6,504
  • Feb 10, 2011 11:43am Feb 10, 2011 11:43am
Quoting shrike
Dr.Who: With limit-orders you have price-certainty but no execution-certainty. With market-orders its the other way round.

With limits you get a better price but incur opportunity cost. Miss an enitre profitable trade and compare that to savings on price-improvement and commission-savings. With marketorders you get a worse price and pay more commissions, but wont miss trades. Pick your disease..

Sure. Exactly why I use the trading techniques I do because over time I get better value by picking my own spots. Some may well do better using market orders but over time I've done better with limits. And now MBT are offering me money to do that, it consolidates the technique. Shame they have other issues which have recently pissed me off however.
He was looking for the card so high and wild hed never need to deal another
  • #6,505
  • Feb 10, 2011 11:44am Feb 10, 2011 11:44am
Quoting Beljevina

I don't think any candle has been skipped, they're just drawn differently, I'm going to guess based on the bank feeds MBT is getting at the time, and, any peculiarities of the API they use to feed MT4. I've put down arrows to show that I don't think there are any skipped candles - they are just very stationary, meaning price is 'stuck' at that level for that minute. I don't see why you couldn't place an order, and get filled.
Hm. I don't think I follow... The candles are skipped, completely. They are not stationary, they aren't there, period. As far as I know if price doesn't change there should still be a candle for every 1m, regardless. When I pull up my crosshair, and scroll 1 m at a time from left to right, it goes 17:00, 17:01, 17:08, 17:09 etc etc.

So if I try to enter at 17:04, are you saying I will get filled at the 17:01 price? And how do you explain the gap from the 17:01 candle to the 17:08 candle? Clearly the price at 17:02 - 17:07 was not the same as 17:01, otherwise 17:08 would have opened at 17:01's close price.

I may be misunderstanding something but if the price is not moving and staying at the 17:01 level, shouldn't the candles still appear s just stationary candles?
Enter Signature
  • #6,506
  • Feb 10, 2011 11:46am Feb 10, 2011 11:46am
Quoting Beljevina
Other than futures/options dealers and some platforms that require $50K to open an account (ie., MarexFX, LCG) Oanda is the only one that comes to mind.
Thanks. MarexFX looks interesting.
He was looking for the card so high and wild hed never need to deal another
  • #6,507
  • Feb 10, 2011 12:11pm Feb 10, 2011 12:11pm
Justin

What's the latest news on the time change to GMT+2? Still in the works?

Hadn't heard much since cancel of move to on Demo platform.

cheers
  • #6,508
  • Feb 10, 2011 1:29pm Feb 10, 2011 1:29pm
Quoting CrucialCraig
Hm. I don't think I follow... The candles are skipped, completely. They are not stationary, they aren't there, period. As far as I know if price doesn't change there should still be a candle for every 1m, regardless. When I pull up my crosshair, and scroll 1 m at a time from left to right, it goes 17:00, 17:01, 17:08, 17:09 etc etc....
No. In stocks and futures, a candle is formed by trades at a price. If something doesn't trade for 5 minutes, then there won't be a 5-minute bar at all. In Forex, a candle is formed by bid ticks, meaning each time the bid moves, and has nothing to do with trades occurring or not. If the bid never moves for 5-minutes, there would be no candle.
  • #6,509
  • Feb 10, 2011 1:38pm Feb 10, 2011 1:38pm
Quoting CrucialCraig
Hm. I don't think I follow... The candles are skipped, completely. They are not stationary, they aren't there, period. As far as I know if price doesn't change there should still be a candle for every 1m, regardless. When I pull up my crosshair, and scroll 1 m at a time from left to right, it goes 17:00, 17:01, 17:08, 17:09 etc etc....
I didn't realize those 'dashes' are not candles - I think that's what you're saying. Or, is the time legend (and the chart) at the bottom is just outright missing specific times - sorry - I could not tell, since I don't have the 'hover above the candle' ability in in your MT4 screenshot.

I was assuming the time is all in sequence at the bottom. If you check the live screenshot posted by IndyTrader, it seems things are OK there.

I think this could be one of those times when there's a legitimate reason why the demo feed is not exactly the same as the live - if something has gone wrong and minutes/bars are missing, I'd expect the broker to have top-attention to the live environment, and basically get the demo back when possible.

If you're saying data or bars are completely missing, I would expect GBPUSD, USDCHF and other pairs are missing it too? Hard to guess though, and again, it's the demo environment. I can think of a number of technical reasons why it might be missing, but I should probably stop speculating.

I'd expect Justin would chime in with an explanation. Probably the end for me; I'll just go out mentioning that your decision 'to MBT or not' needs to bear in mind this is 5pm Sunday on a demo account, and a synthetic pair, with banks bringing on datafeeds. Times and trading like this should never represent more than 1% of anyone's time or even capital, gap strategy or not, because, sooner or later, the '5pm open gap' strategy will not work, or, a black swan could wipe out weeks of profitability.
  • #6,510
  • Feb 10, 2011 1:41pm Feb 10, 2011 1:41pm
Quoting IndyTrader
No. In stocks and futures, a candle is formed by trades at a price. If something doesn't trade for 5 minutes, then there won't be a 5-minute bar at all. In Forex, a candle is formed by bid ticks, meaning each time the bid moves, and has nothing to do with trades occurring or not. If the bid never moves for 5-minutes, there would be no candle.
In futures u have the option to display the chart based on the last trade or the bid or the ask ...
  • #6,511
  • Feb 10, 2011 2:11pm Feb 10, 2011 2:11pm
Quoting IndyTrader
In Forex, a candle is formed by bid ticks, meaning each time the bid moves, and has nothing to do with trades occurring or not. If the bid never moves for 5-minutes, there would be no candle.
I think you get a tick when either the bid or ask moves. Occasionally it appears you can get a tick when neither move (although, I can think of a few reasons why this can happen):

2011.02.10 14:36:39,1.36044,1.36047
2011.02.10 14:36:39,1.36038,1.36047
2011.02.10 14:36:39,1.36036,1.36045
2011.02.10 14:36:40,1.36036,1.36045
2011.02.10 14:36:46,1.36036,1.36043
2011.02.10 14:36:47,1.36036,1.36045
2011.02.10 14:36:49,1.36036,1.36043
2011.02.10 14:36:50,1.36036,1.36045
2011.02.10 14:36:50,1.36036,1.36043
2011.02.10 14:36:50,1.36036,1.36045
2011.02.10 14:36:51,1.36036,1.36042
  • #6,512
  • Feb 10, 2011 2:41pm Feb 10, 2011 2:41pm
Quoting IndyTrader
No. In stocks and futures, a candle is formed by trades at a price. If something doesn't trade for 5 minutes, then there won't be a 5-minute bar at all. In Forex, a candle is formed by bid ticks, meaning each time the bid moves, and has nothing to do with trades occurring or not. If the bid never moves for 5-minutes, there would be no candle.
Thanks. This is defiitely not the case here, though. No candles form for 6 minutes straight and all of a sudden starts feeding again with the price about 30 pips lower than the most recent candle. It is across all pairs, so definitely has something to do with the demo feed

Quoting Beljevina
I didn't realize those 'dashes' are not candles - I think that's what you're saying. Or, is the time legend (and the chart) at the bottom is just outright missing specific times - sorry - I could not tell, since I don't have the 'hover above the candle' ability in in your MT4 screenshot.

I was assuming the time is all in sequence at the bottom. If you check the live screenshot posted by IndyTrader, it seems things are OK there.

I think this could be one of those times when there's a legitimate reason why the demo feed is not exactly the same...
Thanks for all your help. I'm pretty sure this is just the demo feed acting funky at the start of the week. It looks like the live feed is significantly better. What is missing is actual times/minutes/candles (along the bottom). This is across all pairs and is obviously a time where prices were not being updated on the demo feed.

My main reason for investigating this is to determine if it's a normal occurence for the LIVE feed/platform to become inoperable for 5-10 minutes at a time at the start of the trading week. I spoke with a representative and they actually said I could sign up for a LIVE account to get the live feed, and I didn't have to deposit any money to see that feed.

I appreciate you sharing your beliefs on whether or not gap trading is profitable in the long run and how much time/capital should be spent on it. To each his (or her) own
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  • #6,513
  • Feb 10, 2011 8:28pm Feb 10, 2011 8:28pm

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  • #6,514
  • Feb 13, 2011 4:13am Feb 13, 2011 4:13am
Hi all, I need some help please. I have a live MT4 account with MB Trading and it works fine but to use range bars I need to add the EA and open another 1Min chart etc.. But I want to change to NT7 yet keep MB Trading.

I prefer Forex cash to Futures FX at this stage since with the smaller lot sizes I can better match my money management rules. Also MBT have good tight spreads 0.7-1.0 on the eur-usd plus being a ECN broker makes them fine for me.

But I have a problem......I use 3 and 5 range bars so when I connected my NT7 demo to the MBT Navigator demo feed and tried to load currencies (not Futures FX) they would sometimes load and sometimes not, very unstable.

I contacted Ninja via their support forum and was told that this was a ongoing issue with the tick data supplied by MBT and NT had no date when this issue would be resolved. I also contacted MBT by chat but they, whislt friendly and as helpful as possible they did not have any advice since this was from their point of view a NT issue.

My questions.........1) Have any others had this issue with the NT / MBT / range bar combination? 2) Is interactive Brokers my only other NT / Forex cash / ECN / range bar combination.

I really don't want to leave MBT but this range bar issue is a deal breaker for me. Any advice or help gladly accepted...
  • #6,515
  • Feb 13, 2011 11:28am Feb 13, 2011 11:28am
Quoting silverpuma
Hi all, I need some help please. I have a live.

>>>>>>>>>>SNIP SNIP>>>>>>>>>>>>>SNIP SNIP>>>>>>>>>>>>

I really don't want to leave MBT but this range bar issue is a deal breaker for me. Any advice or help gladly accepted...

Its been a few weeks since I gave up on trying to use tick data with the MB feed from the MB server.... It is to plagued with problems to be workable in the real world.

That's a shame because tick data has many advantages over minute based data. Because you can build minute bars out of tick data but can not de-construct the minute data into ticks it would seem like that alone should have MB supplying tick data, and downloadable history files of tick data after it scrolls off the server, just as their competitors do ( Dukascopy etc.)

Instead they supply minimal tick data, no downloadable history files, and the much less useful minute data, with all of its limitations.

The best solution for my situation was to pay for data from eSignal with a data only package. Unlike the cheaper Kinetick (which is NT owned) eSignal allows you to isolate only the MB liquidity pool and chart exactly what you are trading at MB.

Two things are at play here that do not bode well for you getting reliable tick data without having to pay eSignal's (or another data provider) high prices.... One, MB is in the brokerage business first, and the data it provides its customers is a secondary concern... they don't even come up to the standards of their main competitor Dukascopy by failing to provide downloadable history files, and this demonstrates that (tick) data provision to customers is not a primary concern for MB. Two, NinjaTrader has started and owns Kinetick and now has a conflict of interest in that it would much rather you pay Kinetick (them) a subscription fee for data, than sort out any way for you to get a reliable feed free from your broker.

I don't have first hand experience trying to work with tick data from IB, but I can guess from my experience with NT that you are likely to still have problems...you'll find that you need to frequently rebuild your database of tick data from files that IB may not even provide. (Aside from this you should realize that IB only provides a filtered sub-set of the data... its not tick for tick but supposed to be a representative sample. This is why a lot of people pay for data rather than use IB's feed)

In short... neither MB nor NT have much incentive and have demonstrated by their past actions that they expect you to be happy with minute data, or pay a third party for tick data.
  • #6,516
  • Feb 13, 2011 2:00pm Feb 13, 2011 2:00pm
Quoting silverpuma

I prefer Forex cash to Futures FX at this stage since with the smaller lot sizes I can better match my money management rules.

Yes, the MBT data is pretty rubbish and it lets their great brokerage down somewhat.

Dont forget you can trade mini fx futures too
He was looking for the card so high and wild hed never need to deal another
  • #6,517
  • Feb 13, 2011 7:06pm Feb 13, 2011 7:06pm
I too have a problem with the range charts in NT. They have acknowledged there is a problem with the loading of tick based charts.

I'll have to see more info before I'm convinced the loading of tick data is a problem on MBT side. At this point I believe it's NT's problem and they're just trying to shrug the responsibility. I say this because I recently tried Multicharts and it had absolutely no problems at all when loading range bar charts using MBT data. It worked effortlessly.

I may not not know a lot about programming or the workings of NT or MBT data, but the fact that MC is able to load the data yet NT can't... In my mind that points to a problem with NT, not MBT data.
  • #6,518
  • Feb 13, 2011 8:57pm Feb 13, 2011 8:57pm
I run my range bar charts on NT 6.5 with a price feed from PFGBest. I use an identical price feed on a different platform for my live trading and so far I haven't had any issues.
  • #6,519
  • Edited Feb 14, 2011 2:18am Feb 13, 2011 10:28pm | Edited Feb 14, 2011 2:18am
Quoting Trankuility
I too have a problem with the range charts in NT. They have acknowledged there is a problem with the loading of tick based charts.

I'll have to see more info before I'm convinced the loading of tick data is a problem on MBT side. At this point I believe it's NT's problem and they're just trying to shrug the responsibility. I say this because I recently tried Multicharts and it had absolutely no problems at all when loading range bar charts using MBT data. It worked effortlessly.

I may not not know a lot about programming or the workings of NT...
Thanks Crassius for the helpful post and it confirms what I've been able to glean from a few forums about MBT and their lack of tick data. I'll explore your esignal data solution. For good execution I'm willing to pay. This may be the way forward for me if I stay with NT7.

But........Mulitcharts

Interesting info from Trankuility re: Multicharts since they have just released a free Live MUlticharts trading platform with a chart trader that I like and if I can get MC to work with range bars connected to MBT this would be great.......time will tell which solution (esignal or Multicharts) is the best mix.

Crassius, if you don't mind how much does the esignal data cost you per month and do you only trade forex cash. I appreciate the help...thanks!!
  • #6,520
  • Feb 14, 2011 12:25am Feb 14, 2011 12:25am
Quoting dr_who
Yes, the MBT data is pretty rubbish and it lets their great brokerage down somewhat.

Dont forget you can trade mini fx futures too
what happened to MBT recently? it seem that they are having some problems with their demo version MT4? where r u justin? care to explain? pls dont just 'brush' away this issue,your explanation is greatly appreciated!
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