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Currensee Discussion

  • #121
  • Jan 8, 2011 7:26pm Jan 8, 2011 7:26pm
Quoting Razzle
I was looking at your trade leaders thing early this week. IIRC they retain their status as long as your custom performance metric remains above 80

Do you publish performance statistics for trade leaders who are now below that level ?, and out of interest, what percentage of the applicants to the trade leader program are currently below the threshold, and not elligable to trade investor funds ?

sorry of this has been covered in this thread, but I couldnt find any details on your site.
We have removed 3 trade leaders during the month of December

Salva (http://app.currensee.com:80/forexper...rofile/SADHH.B) - He was removed from using a martingale strategy which is strictly forbidden in this program and he was aware that it's not allowed.

Lorenzo (http://app.currensee.com:80/forexper.../profile/LOFHU) and JJ Hewit (http://app.currensee.com:80/forexper.../profile/JJHPX) have requested to be removed from the program at this point because they didn't feel their performance is up to par with the rest of the Trade Leaders. Both of them are great traders and may come back if they request to join the program again.

We've added 3 trade leaders all of them Chinese people that came to us once we translated the product to Chinese a couple of months ago.

MH trading - http://app.currensee.com:80/forexper...rofile/MIXWQ.A
LW trading - http://app.currensee.com:80/forexper...rofile/LIWWK.A
Dong Cheng - http://app.currensee.com:80/forexper...rofile/DOCGM.A


-- Asaf.
  • #122
  • Jan 11, 2011 1:00am Jan 11, 2011 1:00am
Quoting asafyigal
We have a great relationship with OANDA and you can call them and ask about us, unfortunately at this point this is the only reliable API that they have and we're forced to use a full API. When they'll release a read-only API we would make the change and convert to using it.

-- Asaf.
Sorry to bring up an old topic, but I was in chat with oanda rep using live chat. I asked them if oanda is in agreement with currensee.com to allow users to share username & password. they said "We are not in agreement with that website."
  • #123
  • Jan 12, 2011 1:04am Jan 12, 2011 1:04am
Quoting vicious
Sorry to bring up an old topic, but I was in chat with oanda rep using live chat. I asked them if oanda is in agreement with currensee.com to allow users to share username & password. they said "We are not in agreement with that website."

Did they say why? they are 2 separate companies. Not sure if the guy was just implying that they are not related with currensee or not agreeing with the content of the website.

"We are not in agreement with that website." can mean lots of things. What was said before/after the quote?
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  • #124
  • Jan 12, 2011 3:58am Jan 12, 2011 3:58am
In oanda's terms and conditions its clearly mentioned that we should not share login credentials with any one.

Hence if anything goes wrong (suppose currensee.com database gets hacked) oanda will not support our backs. Unlikely scenario but money is at stake here.

I did not probe further because asafyigal said "We have a great relationship with OANDA and you can call them and ask about us". Oanda rejected this statement.

We can play with words and twist the meaning around (of course currensee is in an unofficial agreement, for example) but when shit hits the fan an unofficial agreement holds no value. Until something goes wrong oanda doesn't care if we share our credentials or not. Its only after we get screwed, the fine print is magnified.


You wouldn't share your net banking credentials with anyone, for instance. Unless your bank clearly states in bold letters that its OK to do so.
  • #125
  • Jan 12, 2011 4:15am Jan 12, 2011 4:15am
On a positive note...

" In an effort to give our clients full control of their accounts and data, we are currently working on introducing a new API. The original fxTrade API is considered the best in the industry. This new API was created for users (fxTrade and fxTrade Practice) who wish to securely and efficiently connect with third parties while also specifying who and what types of access you choose to provide (read only, trade enabled, etc.)

OANDA recognizes the need to share trading information with various levels of access and once this is new API is launched you will see increased access to OANDA accounts with most third party sites of interest, including myfxbook and without any fees associated with these particular API connections.

We hope your find that this new API functionality is worth the wait and apologize for the inconvenience in the meantime. "

Just read that on oanda forum posted on 5th jan by a project manager working at oanda. Good news
  • #126
  • Jan 12, 2011 5:24am Jan 12, 2011 5:24am
Quoting asafyigal
We have removed 3 trade leaders during the month of December

Salva (http://app.currensee.com:80/forexper...rofile/SADHH.B) - He was removed from using a martingale strategy which is strictly forbidden in this program and he was aware that it's not allowed.

Lorenzo (http://app.currensee.com:80/forexper.../profile/LOFHU) and JJ Hewit (http://app.currensee.com:80/forexper.../profile/JJHPX) have requested to be removed from the program at this point because they didn't feel their...
That a slightly evasive answer ! I guess people will draw their own conclusions
  • #127
  • Jan 12, 2011 8:42am Jan 12, 2011 8:42am
Quoting Razzle
That a slightly evasive answer ! I guess people will draw their own conclusions
Why is this evasive? - is there any additional information you are looking for?

-- Asaf.
  • #128
  • Jan 12, 2011 10:14am Jan 12, 2011 10:14am
Quoting asafyigal
Why is this evasive? - is there any additional information you are looking for?
I understand why you might be reluctant to disclose the information I requested due to commercial confidentiality, thats OK.
  • #129
  • Jan 13, 2011 2:23am Jan 13, 2011 2:23am
Quoting asafyigal
We have removed 3 trade leaders during the month of December
...
Salva (http://app.currensee.com:80/forexper...rofile/SADHH.B) - He was removed from using a martingale strategy which is strictly forbidden in this program and he was aware that it's not allowed.
......
So was it just a specific type of trade leader? Or are trade leaders told what strategies they can/cannot trade?

I was under the impression that there were global disqualifiers, such as % drawdown or % risk or something that is measurable across all accounts and a published minimum/maximum set.

That is kind of disappointing. Perhaps if you have a link for specific qualifications of the trade leaders, that would be helpful.
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  • #130
  • Jan 13, 2011 4:09am Jan 13, 2011 4:09am
Quoting ybfjax
Perhaps if you have a link for specific qualifications of the trade leaders, that would be helpful.
The ability to churn lots of lovely IB rebates probably helps qualification
  • #131
  • Jan 13, 2011 2:50pm Jan 13, 2011 2:50pm
Quoting ybfjax
So was it just a specific type of trade leader? Or are trade leaders told what strategies they can/cannot trade?

I was under the impression that there were global disqualifiers, such as % drawdown or % risk or something that is measurable across all accounts and a published minimum/maximum set.

That is kind of disappointing. Perhaps if you have a link for specific qualifications of the trade leaders, that would be helpful.
The most important thing for us is risk management - anyone using a martingale or one of martingale's variations is automatically not accepted as trade leader.

The publishable numbers are that the Trade leader must have a TAI above 80, and must be profitable for at least 3 months even though almost everyone we have today have more than 7 months of verifiable performance.

After the initial qualification we interview them to learn more about their trading strategies and risk management and if we are satisfied than we put them on a test for at least a month on some of our real account to experience how they trade and how the manage risk.

We also cannot accept news traders because we can't follow them effectively and we can't accept scalpers that go for less than 3 pips per trade because we also can't properly follow them.

-- Asaf.
  • #132
  • Jan 13, 2011 2:52pm Jan 13, 2011 2:52pm
Quoting Razzle
The ability to churn lots of lovely IB rebates probably helps qualification
Actually the opposite is the true - the more someone trade the more we test them - our most successful trader trade between once a week to 3 times a week and trade, on average, lower volume than others.

We have also negotiated better spreads for some of the brokers we support and we pay the cost of significantly reducing the IB fees we make in order to accommodate such spread reduction.

-- Asaf.
  • #133
  • Jan 14, 2011 5:06am Jan 14, 2011 5:06am
Quoting asafyigal
The most important thing for us is risk management - anyone using a martingale or one of martingale's variations is automatically not accepted as trade leader.

The publishable numbers are that the Trade leader must have a TAI above 80, and must be profitable for at least 3 months even though almost everyone we have today have more than 7 months of verifiable performance.

After the initial qualification we interview them to learn more about their trading strategies and risk management and if we are satisfied than we put them on a test for at least...
Ok. Thanks for the clarification. I didn't see those specific disqualifiers listed in the trade leader FAQ or elsewhere on your site, so I had to ask for some additional clarification.

What if the person uses multiple trading strategies at the same time or at different times?

From my point of view, I think that traders themselves should decide on a trading strategy that is comfortable for them. When you manually disqualify individuals on non-objective merits, such as trading style preference, it skews your winning or losing track record towards the bias of Currensee staff alone. It's like you are saying you know risk better

I think it is important that you mention these disqualifiers clearly so that views can clearly understand the intent of Currensee's Trade Leader program. I don't see what's wrong with letting people trade however they want, and let the risk/performance # calculate themselves.

I guess ultimately as a company you have to also consider your public relations, and having losing traders certainly wouldn't look great from a business prospective. But I think these biases that are being used to filter trade leaders undermind some of the transparency. But i suppose one could just privatly share their signals and trading strategies without going through currensee, and just use currensee as a "real account verification" system.
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  • #134
  • Jan 14, 2011 8:00am Jan 14, 2011 8:00am
Quoting ybfjax
Ok....
If a trader has multiple strategies we ask that they trade them on different broker accounts - we currently have 3 trade leaders (Rafat, Janus and Winsor) with two Trade Leaders accounts each because they run different strategies.

We spend a lot of time and energy selecting and managing the trade leaders and we will not have losing trade leaders offered to investors.

-- Asaf.
  • #135
  • Jan 15, 2011 1:50pm Jan 15, 2011 1:50pm
Asaf,



Any update when brokers like Interactive , Currenex and other institutional ones will join the club ?




Regards.
  • #136
  • Jan 15, 2011 11:48pm Jan 15, 2011 11:48pm
Quoting asafyigal
We spend a lot of time and energy selecting and managing the trade leaders and we will not have losing trade leaders offered to investors.

-- Asaf.
From my point of view, a leader does not always have winning trades all of the time. The irony of the whole thing is that you wouldn't know if a trader is losing until after he has lost; after your stops are hit.

It's the transparency combined with the social network that makes currensee so unique. The trade leader program is one of the "flagships" so to speak of the potential applications of that transparency.
Measure trends automatically with zero lag
  • #137
  • Jan 16, 2011 12:04pm Jan 16, 2011 12:04pm
Quoting ybfjax
The irony of the whole thing is that you wouldn't know if a trader is losing until after he has lost.
Thats the question that I was asking. Its all well and good publicising the results from the current top 15 traders, but what about those who are not being actively promoted at this stage.

For example, they removed 3 traders. If there's any transparency at all, then the performance of those 3 traders should continue to be tracked, and made publically available.

Even if those 3 traders completely destroy their accounts new investors should be aware that at one stage these people where being actively promoted, and trading client funds.
  • #138
  • Jan 16, 2011 12:29pm Jan 16, 2011 12:29pm
Quoting Razzle
For example, they removed 3 traders. If there's any transparency at all, then the performance of those 3 traders should continue to be tracked, and made publically available.
FWIW, what you're referring to is essentially the pitfall known as survivorship bias, and it's a skewing factor across the entire investment world - stocks indices, mutual funds, hedge funds, CTAs, etc.
  • #139
  • Jan 16, 2011 4:16pm Jan 16, 2011 4:16pm
We don't remove the traders because they lose - we remove them if they ask us to be removed or if they change their trading and violate our initial understanding of their risk management or strategy.

For example if a trader told us he is not using martingale and we add him in only to discover that after a few months he started to use that strategy then he is out.

We keep track of all the trade leaders even the ones that have been suspended and this is why I've attached their profiles so you can see that we keep track of them.

We've had traders that asked to be removed and then asked to be added again - for example Robert Ivanov (http://app.currensee.com/forexpert/f...rofile/ROICU.A) Asked to be removed in August because he was going on a three months vacation and then in November we added him back in.

We, at this point, keep track of the trade leaders individually and not as a collective portfolio but we're working on some sort of an index that would represent their aggregated performance and the suggestion to keep the suspended ones in this portfolio is a very good suggestion.

-- Asaf.
  • #140
  • Jan 17, 2011 2:24pm Jan 17, 2011 2:24pm
Is there any (good) reason why the leaders trade history is not shown - some of the balance curves do not match the strategies advertised. A trade history would help verify and illuminate the trading outside of the supplied stats, which are not documented and proprietary and so essentially meaningless
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