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  • #166,781
  • Nov 28, 2009 10:54pm Nov 28, 2009 10:54pm
Quoting TexasforEX
Mark Twain wrote: "When I was eighteen my father was a complete fool. I was amazed at how much he had learned by the time I turned 30."
  • #166,782
  • Nov 28, 2009 10:55pm Nov 28, 2009 10:55pm
Factor in a paradigm shift when you start musing about the major changes that we and our children will live through. Food and water? You bet. But energy is the big one. Right now, we are still living in the age of fossil fuels. Oil is the life's blood of capitalism as it exists today. It is at the root of how economies live and die; it's why we start and fight our wars. You can think what you want about global warming, but the bottom line is the fossil fuel age must come to an end. The fossil fuels are finite resources and their extraction is only going to get more and more expensive and problematic with the passage of time. Like any huge change of plans, this can be accomplished the easy way, or it can be done the hard way. The future flourishing economies will be well positioned to take advantage of alternative energy resources and will elect to move down that path the easy way.

Free book, for an interesting perspective on what the future may hold....

http://www.earth-policy.org/index.php?/books/pb4
"If The Fool persists in his Folly he will become wise." - William Blake
  • #166,783
  • Nov 28, 2009 11:28pm Nov 28, 2009 11:28pm
Lord Monckton summarises what I think about the great Global Warming Hoax:

http://www.infowars.com/lord-monckto...ex-jones-show/
  • #166,784
  • Nov 28, 2009 11:52pm Nov 28, 2009 11:52pm
http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE5AR0EY20091128
I am both right and wrong, what's important is the amount of $$$ in my bank
  • #166,785
  • Nov 29, 2009 12:08am Nov 29, 2009 12:08am
Quoting tamster
Lord Monckton summarises what I think about the great Global Warming Hoax:

http://www.infowars.com/lord-monckto...ex-jones-show/
People will always find & affiliate themselves with those who believe as they do. That's natural. As is the tendency for people to seek every means available to deny those facts and to demonize those other people who represent a threat to their beliefs.

Belief is an affliction.

Global warming is a fact. Melting of polar ice and glaciers is a fact worldwide. If you want to be Big Oil's dupe and argue about the anthropogenic nature of global warming, fine - you will have some company amongst their shills and the feeble-minde right-wingers who can always be counted upon to oppose whatever they perceive may smell of a "leftist" (or is it "socialist", now?) agenda. Beyond the culture wars, other facts remain: oil is a finite resource. Coal is a finite resource. I doubt if crackpot Lord Monckton is going very far out of his way to advise humanity how to prepare for the implications of those simple facts, either.
"If The Fool persists in his Folly he will become wise." - William Blake
  • #166,786
  • Nov 29, 2009 12:10am Nov 29, 2009 12:10am
Quoting tamster
Lord Monckton summarises what I think about the great Global Warming Hoax:

http://www.infowars.com/lord-monckto...ex-jones-show/
The biggest problem with global warming is that the uncertainties outweigh the certainties. We know CO2 emissions can increase temperatures, but global temperatures haven't risen in a decade. We don't know enough about positive and negative feedback mechanisms, and solar output is a huge wildcard. There is still a lot of science that needs to be done.

Regardless of climate change, energy, food, and water are all big problems and related. The driving force behind all of them is population which is the biggest problem in the world imo.
  • #166,787
  • Nov 29, 2009 12:12am Nov 29, 2009 12:12am
Quoting TexasforEX
Mark Twain wrote: "When I was eighteen my father was a complete fool. I was amazed at how much he had learned by the time I turned 30."
lol
When life gives you lemons, make lemonade
  • #166,788
  • Nov 29, 2009 12:14am Nov 29, 2009 12:14am
Quoting Protogenos
The biggest problem with global warming is that the uncertainties outweigh the certainties. We know CO2 emissions can increase temperatures, but global temperatures haven't risen in a decade. We don't know enough about positive and negative feedback mechanisms, and solar output is a huge wildcard. There is still a lot of science that needs to be done.

Regardless of climate change, energy, food, and water are all big problems and related. The driving force behind all of them is population which is the biggest problem in the world imo.
simple solution to the problem of population... world word III
When life gives you lemons, make lemonade
  • #166,789
  • Nov 29, 2009 12:22am Nov 29, 2009 12:22am
Quoting Protogenos
The biggest problem with global warming is that the uncertainties outweigh the certainties. We know CO2 emissions can increase temperatures, but global temperatures haven't risen in a decade. We don't know enough about positive and negative feedback mechanisms, and solar output is a huge wildcard. There is still a lot of science that needs to be done.
The apologists for the status quo will be singing this tune even after half of Florida is a kiddie pool.
"If The Fool persists in his Folly he will become wise." - William Blake
  • #166,790
  • Nov 29, 2009 12:26am Nov 29, 2009 12:26am
Quoting micho
simple solution to the problem of population... world word III
We won't need WWIII, nature will do the job for us. Technology can save us for a while, but eventually it will be bad. Of course the weakest economies will be affected the most, so if you don't live in a developed country make sure you move soon, haha.
  • #166,791
  • Nov 29, 2009 12:31am Nov 29, 2009 12:31am
Quoting The Fool
The apologists for the status quo will be singing this tune even after half of Florida is a kiddie pool.
My boss is actually going to Copenhagen next month, but nobody expects anything. Actually a lot of environmental engineers believe there is nothing we can do to stop it, that no country is willing to make the necessary sacrifices. The best plan is to start adapting and forget about mitigation. The tipping points may have already been reached.
  • #166,792
  • Nov 29, 2009 12:41am Nov 29, 2009 12:41am
Quoting Protogenos
We won't need WWIII, nature will do the job for us. Technology can save us for a while, but eventually it will be bad. Of course the weakest economies will be affected the most, so if you don't live in a developed country make sure you move soon, haha.
Actually, bud I disagree with you there, too. The weakest economies, where everything sucked already, were relatively less impacted by the recent economic "crisis" than the richer economies have been. When you're already at rock bottom there's not much room for "worse". And, historically, many societies that have been considered "strong" or "advanced" have crashed & burned, never to be heard from again.

It boils down to: "what is a "strong" or "weak" economy? Is an economy "strong" if its strength is measured in the higher absolute value of its paper money assets? Even if it is largely dependent on exogenous inputs for food, energy, and manufactured goods? Maybe a stronger economy, in the long run, would be built around a "bottom up" society that lived close to the land, producing most of what it needed to consume, and that did not squander whatever treasure it had in gambling on dubious financial schemes and embarking on futile imperialist wars every generation or so?

Of course, time will tell. Meanwhile, people will continue to believe what they want to believe, no matter how "scientific" they may think themselves.
"If The Fool persists in his Folly he will become wise." - William Blake
  • #166,793
  • Nov 29, 2009 12:44am Nov 29, 2009 12:44am
Quoting Protogenos
My boss is actually going to Copenhagen next month, but nobody expects anything. Actually a lot of environmental engineers believe there is nothing we can do to stop it, that no country is willing to make the necessary sacrifices. The best plan is to start adapting and forget about mitigation. The tipping points may have already been reached.
Sure, that may all be true. And isn't that another "convenient truth" if you happen to have invested the wealth of a nation on an economy based on the profligate extraction and mis-use of fossil fuels? Kind of like, when you find out you have cancer, you say, "Nah, lets not try to cure it, I was gonna die anyway..."
"If The Fool persists in his Folly he will become wise." - William Blake
  • #166,794
  • Nov 29, 2009 12:50am Nov 29, 2009 12:50am
What tipping point - its a scam. The leaked emails and documents from the scientists responsible for the global warming alarm were fiddling the data. They said temperatures had actually dropped over the last 10 years but hide that information in false data - you should listen to the Lord Monckton interview I posted. 30,000 scientists are ready to sue these so-called scientists for falsifying data. The real reason behind this is to introduce a carbon tax, to benefit the bankers and introduce a one world totalitarian dictatorship. They want to de-industrialise western societies and depopulate the planet.
  • #166,795
  • Nov 29, 2009 12:57am Nov 29, 2009 12:57am
Quoting tamster
What tipping point - its a scam. The leaked emails and documents from the scientists responsible for the global warming alarm were fiddling the data. They said temperatures had actually dropped over the last 10 years but hide that information in false data - you should listen to the Lord Monckton interview I posted. 30,000 scientists are ready to sue these so-called scientists for falsifying data. The real reason behind this is to introduce a carbon tax, to benefit the bankers and introduce a one world totalitarian dictatorship. They want to de-industrialise...

Sure, sure, and I guess the oil companies who exercise huge control over various governments in the "developed world" do not feel threatened at all by a threat to their continued regime of fossil fuel extraction. I should really stop trying to think for myself and believe whatever crap they may throw at the wall & hope sticks. Since the mainstream media is in their pocket, I will have plenty of chances to see those messages, in between commercials for new gas-guzzling SUV's and the Army recruitment promos.

"They" want to depopulate the planet? - I am sure somehow Satan is behind that sinister plan, or maybe a super-intelligent race of lizard extraterrestrials? Yeah, I am sure glad I know where to look for the voice of reason. Thanks, buddy.
"If The Fool persists in his Folly he will become wise." - William Blake
  • #166,796
  • Edited 1:21am Nov 29, 2009 1:02am | Edited 1:21am
Why would scientist reject the global warming agreement?
http://www.petitionproject.org/

Here are the hard facts, make up your mind whether one thinks the media and Al Gore are lying. Which board does Al Gore sits on prior to his global warming campaign and after. Read about the mistakes make in his film. Google the scientists and those that are in the IPCC. Read about Australia's lead adviser on climate, hear what they say.

Dr Roy Spencer on Global Warming
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoke-1i8A9U

Global Warming - what do the numbers show
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WWpH0lmcxA

Dennis Avery Discusses Global Warming
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTGBcVi7n0o

GLOBAL WARMING the TRUTH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBijSd9hipU


There are more, just do your own research and come to your own conclusion
PS: let's get back to trading - global warming has nothing to do with trading
I am both right and wrong, what's important is the amount of $$$ in my bank
  • #166,797
  • Nov 29, 2009 1:06am Nov 29, 2009 1:06am
Quoting The Fool
Actually, bud I disagree with you there, too. The weakest economies, where everything sucked already, were relatively less impacted by the recent economic "crisis" than the richer economies have been. When you're already at rock bottom there's not much room for "worse". And, historically, many societies that have been considered "strong" or "advanced" have crashed & burned, never to be heard from again.

It boils down to: "what is a "strong" or "weak" economy? Is an economy "strong" if its strength is measured in the higher absolute...
You're right, financially they weren't impacted because they never had credit or housing bubbles. What I'm talking about though is ten or twenty years from now when food prices have doubled or tripled. Poor countries don't have the financial resources to compete when resouces become scarce. Look how China has pushed up the prices of commodities. How do you think that impacts less developed countries? And what makes matters worse for them is that these are the countries with the largest population growth.
  • #166,798
  • Nov 29, 2009 1:18am Nov 29, 2009 1:18am
Quoting tamster
What tipping point - its a scam. The leaked emails and documents from the scientists responsible for the global warming alarm were fiddling the data. They said temperatures had actually dropped over the last 10 years but hide that information in false data - you should listen to the Lord Monckton interview I posted. 30,000 scientists are ready to sue these so-called scientists for falsifying data. The real reason behind this is to introduce a carbon tax, to benefit the bankers and introduce a one world totalitarian dictatorship. They want to de-industrialise...
As an environmental engineer, I will tell you from first-hand knowledge that oil companies are providing A LOT of funding for research. They fund a few projects in my lab, and I guarantee this type of thing goes both ways. Truth is probably somewhere in the middle as usual.
  • #166,799
  • Nov 29, 2009 1:21am Nov 29, 2009 1:21am
Quoting The Fool
Sure, that may all be true. And isn't that another "convenient truth" if you happen to have invested the wealth of a nation on an economy based on the profligate extraction and mis-use of fossil fuels? Kind of like, when you find out you have cancer, you say, "Nah, lets not try to cure it, I was gonna die anyway..."
Oh, don't get me wrong...it's definitely worth trying, I mean it's my job to find solutions to these types of problems. I just think that if the literature is correct, it's too late to prevent rising temperatures and sea levels. On the other hand, the literature has a lot of gaps. People will be debating this until sea levels are up 20 ft or we're in another ice age, lol.
  • #166,800
  • Nov 29, 2009 1:27am Nov 29, 2009 1:27am
Quoting amgblack
Here are the hard facts...
..sure, the Heartland Institue, a real bastion of scientific reason, I will always turn to them when I need to have the straight truth: you know, stuff about how smoking cigarettes is not as bad as people say, that global warming is a myth, that air pollution is a hoax, etc. Check out the website if you are a republican feeb with a Fox News fix so you can find the right set of "scientists" to tell you how to think.

Like I said, people will typically affiliate themselves with those that believe as they do. You want to believe that global warming is a leftist hoax and you would ally yourself with whoever reinforces that view. Those that want to discredit climate change do so on the whole out of purely political motivations. Then, ironically, they will pose dramatically as persecuted Galileo, even though people who have labored to publish reasoned scientific inquiry into the issue of climate change have done so against the continued activist interference from the corporate media and corporate-owned governments.

People with a political agenda will sieze upon a single instance of fraud or any limited set of data that may help to bolser their view, and will ignore the body of knowledge that is overwhelmingly contrary to their view and label it as "biased."

There really is no point in arguing with people who are afflicted by belief.
"If The Fool persists in his Folly he will become wise." - William Blake
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