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The DIBS Method... No Free Lunch continues

  • #8,881
  • Nov 15, 2009 12:39pm Nov 15, 2009 12:39pm
@Razor_trader

I don't use this method. Nevertheless, I understand why some traders express their doubt and are searching for more.

It insults my intelligence when someone says that this method is perfect and there's nothing you can add to it. My mind can't accept that there's no some filter out there which will remove a few bad trades every month. That would be enough to make it clearly profitable in the short run AND in the long run.

PC said that he knows that some breakouts have a bigger chance of winning. Therefore he can increase the lot size when his experience tells him so. Maybe this is his way of winning more on some trades. Why is he allowed to do it but when some other trader tries to improve his edge by filtering you and others consider that this is some sacriledge against the perfect system?

DIBS is not a religion. I'm 101% convinced that anybody who trades it succesfully BENDS the rules. Filters, averages, discretionary lot sizes, S/R, you name it. I also know some adjustments which are profitable in the long run. I just don't disclose them.

And I'm sick of hearing that the lack of discipline is the main cause of failure. No, it is the lack of an edge. Without discipline you'll blow your account faster, with discpline you'll blow it slower if you don't have an edge. And it is hard to see the edge of this method as long as the entry and the stop loss hardly have some fundamental meaning.

So my advise for everybody is: bend the rules and find your own method of increasing the odds. It is available for all the systems presented on this forum.
  • #8,882
  • Nov 16, 2009 6:07am Nov 16, 2009 6:07am
Quoting Sauron
@Razor_trader

My mind can't accept that there's no some filter out there which will remove a few bad trades every month. That would be enough to make it clearly profitable in the short run AND in the long run.



So my advise for everybody is: bend the rules and find your own method of increasing the odds. It is available for all the systems presented on this forum.
Good words Sauron. This is the same for me just could't express it!
  • #8,883
  • Nov 16, 2009 7:35am Nov 16, 2009 7:35am
Quoting Sauron
Do NOT come into this thread and tell us something can be done unless you have several years of actual proof and can also prove that those results are typical and not unusual. .
interesting point....do you take your own advice?

seriously though your point has been made and answered many many times in this thread! I myself don't trade 100% dibs as set out bla bla bla not going into it again but it's the concept and it's application to your trading that is important and a failure to recognise that is just that " a failure".

this thread has been kept pretty clear of filters tweaks etc, i think any bastardisation of dibs should be started in new thread to keep things clearly defined for the less experienced trader.

just my thoughts

regards

ic
  • #8,884
  • Nov 16, 2009 7:41am Nov 16, 2009 7:41am
Quote
Hi James
I hope u r still on this thread

I've just entered in the thread

I've seen in your post you traded for 6 years IB method on the 6 majors,but I'd like to know if u r strictly using the rules of the first post of this thread,i.e do you avoid IB candles on 6.00 GMT?


I posted my rules. Hope it helped. London opens at 3am est my time.

http://cdn.forexfactory.com/images/buttons/quote.gif

  • #8,885
  • Edited 8:06am Nov 16, 2009 7:52am | Edited 8:06am
Quote
James......I beat you........im up for 1 am EST http://cdn.forexfactory.com/images/s.../yim/happy.gif

I am a total zombie.................
I feel your pain!!!! lol....As you know it's a 3rd shift job with major overtime.. The cool part is there is no traffic in Manhattan at these times, so the commute into the office is a breeze... Even around 1:30pm when I usually leave to go home the traffic isn't too bad. Remember to get your proper exercise and take your vitimins. really helps out. I have a trend mill in the office and try my best to use it regular.
  • #8,886
  • Nov 16, 2009 8:18am Nov 16, 2009 8:18am
The way I browse FF now is that I follow several threads, but also group of posters who managed to attract some high-quality brainstorming or dropped a hint or two now and then. I almost fainted when I saw post from PC.
DIBS is one of the most amazing applications of a very powerful concept. Nothing more, but NOTHING LESS. The NOTHING LESS part is where it gets interesting. I laugh when people around me are trying to "win the lottery".
This thread got filled with ... lets say I have lost interest in reading non-progressive ideas. As Razor and Joel already mentioned, you, free-lunch-ers are waiting for some nice little package with button that says "print money", but are lazy to create this little box out of nothing. Read this thread, save screenshots, comments, print them out, re-read them again, find similar situations, analyze it, do the stats .. and use your brain. It is not easy, but your odds of succeeding are pretty much in your hands (which is not true for the "lottery case")

Bluefish
  • #8,887
  • Nov 16, 2009 8:20am Nov 16, 2009 8:20am
Quoting Sauron
@Razor_trader

I don't use this method. Nevertheless, I understand why some traders express their doubt and are searching for more.

It insults my intelligence when someone says that this method is perfect and there's nothing you can add to it. My mind can't accept that there's no some filter out there which will remove a few bad trades every month. That would be enough to make it clearly profitable in the short run AND in the long run.

PC said that he knows that some breakouts have a bigger chance of winning. Therefore he can increase the...
First off, im not against traders using there own disrection to trade this or any other method, I dont believe I have ever said otherwise. My comments come from those who expect everything handed to them on a silver platter so they can shortcut there way.

Second off, I never said that discipline is the main cause of failure, i merely stated that it is up there with others, having an edge is also there but how does one aquire the edges in trading without trading.

Thirdly no one has ever claimed it to be perfect, once again though PC has traded this as part of his trading for years, over which I am sure he would have seen many many trades in which some work better than others. That being said I am sure he has loaded up a few times and lost in the process, go figure that the markets are not always willing to go your way. Trading this, and any other method, is the only way to get a feel for it. Over time you will discover yourself some things that work and that don’t and then you will make your own decisions. So im not sure where you got the perfect system from but seriously it is simple and that is about as clear cut as they come. Nothing is perfect in trading, to think otherwise is just short changing yourself.

So really I am not sure why you have clearly picked out my post with what you have wrote (@Razor_Trader) because I have been part of this thread for sometime and I have always stated, along with other threads, that you need to take discretion on board. The only time you will trade a method flawlessly and to the T is when you create your own, unique or a mosaic of others, and you are 100% comfortable with it.

Razor
  • #8,888
  • Nov 16, 2009 11:07am Nov 16, 2009 11:07am
The reason I'm posting here is to be able to follow this thread as it continues. The method is quite interesting and I took out time last weekend to read through it completely. If the guy that initiated the little misunderstanding a few posts above had read through the entire thread, maybe there wouldn't have been need for some of his comments. Kennedy
Mystery Is The Final Product Of Ignorance. Hey! What's ma chart doin'
  • #8,889
  • Nov 16, 2009 1:06pm Nov 16, 2009 1:06pm
Classic...

Quoting james996
I feel your pain!!!! lol....As you know it's a 3rd shift job with major overtime.. The cool part is there is no traffic in Manhattan at these times, so the commute into the office is a breeze... Even around 1:30pm when I usually leave to go home the traffic isn't too bad. Remember to get your proper exercise and take your vitimins. really helps out. I have a trend mill in the office and try my best to use it regular.
  • #8,890
  • Nov 16, 2009 1:35pm Nov 16, 2009 1:35pm
is it just a good way to:

a. Develop a structure to control your risk via a limited number of entry opportunities,
b. control risk because it gives you a specific kill point for a trade;
c. trade with the trend, or
d. let profit run when using a trailing or time based stop.

So, what am I getting at? I see that Pinman plays IB's one way, and James plays them another (kudo's on both of your success, but the common feature between the two is a mechanism to trade with the trend, limit risk and let trades run. Maybe that is as complicated as it needs to be

In addition to dibs, I use a daily system that enters two trades a day on the GBP/USD pair - 32 pips from the open of the day on my metatrader chart - 6 pm est right now (one long and one short) - stop loss is the reversal point (so 64 pips) and I close at the end of day - almost all the same components as dibs (yes, I use a time based closed, but I make money when things bounce back and forth)

(Why 32 pips? Because I know that 50% of the time the open price is 31 pips away from either the high or low of the day on the GBP)

Yes, today was crappy - had 6 full stop outs, but such is life.

So what is it about simple structures that people don't want to understand?
  • #8,891
  • Nov 16, 2009 2:20pm Nov 16, 2009 2:20pm
Originally Posted by Sauron
Quote
My mind can't accept that there's no some filter out there which will remove a few bad trades every month. That would be enough to make it clearly profitable in the short run AND in the long run.
Hey when you find THAT filter please give me a call. I would love to sit down with you and look it over. Your office or mine.. Thanks in advance...

Quote
I understand why some traders express their doubt and are searching for more.
I understand it too, it's because they lack Discipline!

1. Discipline to sit down and do the WORK require themselves. Imagine taking the original basic strategy given and spending about 100 hours give or take to backtest it and make it your own.-this is called required WORK.

2. Discipline to take the time to go figure out their inside tolerances to the realities of trading.(pain avoidance and certain addictive personality trait disorders).

3. Discipline to write out a business plan incorporating THEIR STUDIES.

4. Discipline to follow out their plan.

5. Oh yea there is one more thing. What was it? I remember now Discipline to accept the Losses and then to take the next trade applying their back tested work. Or simple put applying an edge in a consistence manner.

6. But why bother doing any of that stuff when you can spend your precious time criticizing someone that actually did and continues to do the required work. Not only that but then takes the time to post it for all to possible benefit from. I'm especially talking about Razor_Trader. Please tell me what I'm missing here?

Quote
And I'm sick of hearing that the lack of discipline is the main cause of failure. No, it is the lack of an edge
1.You can't have an edge if you don't do YOUR HOMEWORK-Doing homework requires discipline.

Quote
And it is hard to see the edge of this method as long as the entry and the stop loss hardly have some fundamental meaning.
Real ,real easy take the time(discipline/work) to do a proper backtest. Or just drive past my house..lol

I'm out of here..Scotty Beam Me Up.
  • #8,892
  • Nov 16, 2009 5:06pm Nov 16, 2009 5:06pm
Quoting james996

I'm out of here..Scotty Beam Me Up.
Can I come too ROFL
  • #8,893
  • Nov 16, 2009 7:00pm Nov 16, 2009 7:00pm
Quoting bluefish
The way I browse FF now is that I follow several threads, but also group of posters who managed to attract some high-quality brainstorming or dropped a hint or two now and then. I almost fainted when I saw post from PC.
DIBS is one of the most amazing applications of a very powerful concept. Nothing more, but NOTHING LESS. The NOTHING LESS part is where it gets interesting. I laugh when people around me are trying to "win the lottery".
This thread got filled with ... lets say I have lost interest in reading non-progressive ideas. As Razor and...
I see why your still around since you registered back in 2006.

Every statement is soo true. I myself never started getting consistent results at first. Until I Read Mark Douglas and also went out bought a printer and printed my trade screen shots. When I enter and exited. Wife used to get mad having to go pick up Ink once a week.
  • #8,894
  • Nov 16, 2009 10:35pm Nov 16, 2009 10:35pm
Quote
So, what am I getting at? I see that Pinman plays IB's one way, and James plays them another (kudo's on both of your success, but the common feature between the two is a mechanism to trade with the trend, limit risk and let trades run. Maybe that is as complicated as it needs to be

Quote
Maybe that is as complicated as it needs to be

One of the most intelligent posts I have ever read here. It really is as simple as that. All the info and knowledge was or has been given on this thread to become a profitable trader. But like I said before the real problem most people have is that they don't want to accept the losses that is part of the game. You think there is a better,magical way(filter) around this reality? Been at this game a long long time and I have not found it. I know some very wealthy traders some of whom are in the famous books most of the people here have read and I know they haven't found it either. Take the basic plan of any decent trend following method, size your trades to a level YOU can handle,go do a decent back test, open up an account and start trading and work on your individual psychological issues that we all have. In time you will either realize you don't want to put up with the realities of the game and give up. Or one will evolve to a point that you will accept what the markets will give you at any certain time, and embrace the markets. "you will always get what YOU really want from the markets". Razor and many other here including PC have taking the time to point some out some of these issues in their own way based on their own personal experiences.

Oh and I would like to point out one more thing. Lets be honest here a TRADER is one who has the discipline to take an edge and apply it to a market in a consistent manner to extract a profit in a measurable time frame of some sort. We measure the the skill of a trader by looking at the percentage gained or lost. All other discussions are futile attempts to disguise what is really going on here. Nothing more and nothing less.

Quote
My mind can't accept that there's no some filter out there which will remove a few bad trades every month.

Once one reaches a basic competence level in theire trading they will realize there are no such thing as a bad trades,only bad trading. There is a huge difference between the two. This is what seperates the ones in the know from the ones standing on the sidewalk looking into the window and wishing. There are only trades that make money. lose money and trades that break even nothing more to it. But hey what do I know..I will be out at the East end during the Thanks Giving Holiday if anyone is around in the area give me a shout out and we can talk shop at the local library or Starbucks. It really doesn't have to be hard to reach for the stars....
  • #8,895
  • Nov 17, 2009 1:24am Nov 17, 2009 1:24am
Quoting james996
One of the most intelligent posts I have ever read here. It really is as simple as that. All the info and knowledge was or has been given on this thread to become a profitable trader. But like I said before the real problem most people have is that they don't want to accept the losses that is part of the game. You think there is a better,magical way(filter) around this reality? Been at this game a long long time and I have not found it. I know some very wealthy traders some of whom are in the famous books most of the people here have read and I...
And this is exactly why I enjoy having you around. Too bad that most dont read and understand the simplicity in the words. I found along time ago to just shrug off the losers, they are part of doing business and in all cases are minimised to a very small % of an account. In the event that you make stupid trades you can only look at yourself which I am sure we have all done from time to time, so long as your learning from them.

Your posts speak clearly, without the BS that is usually encoded into most.

Razor
  • #8,896
  • Nov 17, 2009 4:05am Nov 17, 2009 4:05am
razor, razor, james, bluefish and fxcatty

good points, well made!

regards

ic
  • #8,897
  • Nov 17, 2009 5:21am Nov 17, 2009 5:21am
I am trying to do some backtesting with using daily data, but with the day starting at 6 am gmt rather than 00 or 01 gmt - cant seem t do this with metatrader - I could reformat the data manually - have it all in spreadsheet form.......but it has 62000 data points......

any suggestions would be appreciated
  • #8,898
  • Nov 17, 2009 6:12am Nov 17, 2009 6:12am
Quoting james996
I will be out at the East end during the Thanks Giving Holiday if anyone is around in the area give me a shout out and we can talk shop at the local library or Starbucks. It really doesn't have to be hard to reach for the stars....
James,

Thanks for another kind invitation to us all.
It's a pitty you live so far away, otherwise i would have liked to pay you a visit for a chat, and i'm sure i would have learned a lot.
But if you ever come down to the Netherlands then please let me know.
Persistence will get it. Consistency will keep it.
  • #8,899
  • Nov 17, 2009 3:51pm Nov 17, 2009 3:51pm
Reas said,
Quote
James,

Thanks for another kind invitation to us all.
It's a pitty you live so far away, otherwise i would have liked to pay you a visit for a chat, and i'm sure i would have learned a lot.
But if you ever come down to the Netherlands then please let me know. http://cdn.forexfactory.com/images/s.../yim/happy.gif
I will try to do that one day, thanks for the kind words. If you want, look me up on Skype my number is listed in my profile. This goes for anyone that would like a little advise or encouragement I don't mind giving back to those that are willing to help themselves. Just let me know when.

Quote
Your posts speak clearly, without the BS that is usually encoded into most. Razor
Thanks Razor. I appreciate your posts also...It's great to see someone making real progress and maintaining the desire/attitude to reach back and share with others. Sad thing most will not get it. To hell with the naysayers!!! Keep up the great work and positive attitude...
  • #8,900
  • Nov 18, 2009 4:41am Nov 18, 2009 4:41am
Quoting razorboy
is it just a good way to:

a. Develop a structure to control your risk via a limited number of entry opportunities,
b. control risk because it gives you a specific kill point for a trade;
c. trade with the trend, or
d. let profit run when using a trailing...
Cheers mate, thanks for the comment, it IS that simple. As an aside, I have been frustrated by some of the people who have PM'ed me. Some have asked sensible questions, others just want that 'print money' button. It isn't so much that I don't want to give them it (although I don't) it is that I can't - if you can't stomach the thought that making enough money to be financially secure in (say) 10 years is going to cost you time and money in the beginning... I can't fathom such people. Sadly I didn't find this forum before I started, or I wouldn't have made the errors I did in the beginning before using my variation on the method. There again, I might well have owing to my own hubris at the time...

Not every IB is a 'good' IB, but some which look 'less good' turn out to be great. I'd suggest to everyone who is still on demo to get some small-account experience - stick $1000 (or similar, or you could use less if you like) in a micro broker and take the IB according to PCs rules. Start out using 1% risk, so taking off 0.5% at break-even. You'll get lots of losses, but if you let the winners run you'll be up over time. If you are lucky with this money management, you'll be up about 50% in a year. A lot of work for $500, but it's money not spent in trading badly with sweaty palms through risking too much money at the start or with too bigger %equity resting on each trade. What you will learn will set you up for trading 2% or 3% of equity, and you'll now be so used to accepting the losses you'll be able to handle it like water off a duck's back as they continue to occur.

I'm lucky in that I've been doing this long enough that I can look at a chart and get a feel of the market, which has improved my decision-making a little bit. BUT THAT'S ALL. The INNATE edge of IB when trading with the trend exists even without this if you are prepared to do it for long enough and rigidly follow your rules, you'll end up up.

And as someone else said, read Mark Douglas - Trading in the Zone. It will be the best $20 you've ever spent.

Simple really.

PinMan.
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