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Any brokers guaranteeing stop loss protection?

  • #41
  • Jun 5, 2009 2:25pm Jun 5, 2009 2:25pm
Quoting blazespinnaker
I think you guys need to learn a thing or two. This wasn't caused by the BOE or any 'news release' he could have looked up.

It was caused by the sudden rumor that Brown was going to resign.
No actually, the slide was started by a US bank buying dollars against the majors and exacerbated by the MPC rate decision, and ultimately the Brown resignation rumour.

Apart from the MPC there was the ECB, Trichet, and then NFP today. All potentially volatile data and the reason why it would have been prudent to stand aside if you don't understand fundamentals and their effects on the market. There were obvious execution risks and you either understand them and accept them or you don't trade at such times. Simple.

Whichever way you cut it there was a gap, FXCM didn't make it, the market did. How can any broker be responsible for what happens in the market, the idea is naiive. Why should a broker be expected to fill an order at a price which didn't exist? Would the OP be complaining and offering FXCM money back if it was a take profit order which had slippage?
  • #42
  • Jun 5, 2009 2:27pm Jun 5, 2009 2:27pm
200pips in 1min on my chart, would you of complained if your TP closes out +130


Sadly thats the risk in holding over news, especially the NFP the biggest mover there is.
Nothing to it, but to do it!!! Stick to the plan FOOL!!!!
  • #43
  • Jun 5, 2009 3:00pm Jun 5, 2009 3:00pm
Quoting pipmutt
Whichever way you cut it there was a gap, FXCM didn't make it, the market did. How can any broker be responsible for what happens in the market, the idea is naiive. Why should a broker be expected to fill an order at a price which didn't exist? Would the OP be complaining and offering FXCM money back if it was a take profit order which had slippage?
The question is, and I'd like to seem some transparency around this, is are we seeing the exact same slippage past TP orders as we are past SL orders?

Unless we get transparency around that, I think complaining about slippage is fully justified.
  • #44
  • Jun 5, 2009 3:32pm Jun 5, 2009 3:32pm
Quoting blazespinnaker
SFX ... How can this possibly work? If I put up 5 lots and the market gaps 238 pips, how could your broker possibly afford to guarantee my 5 pip stop loss?

Nobody is immune from slippage.
Hey blazespinnaker,

What you say may be true, but if a broker states that no slippage occurs on their platforms, and you are somewhat familiar with said broker's regulations/rules and operations enough to trust them (which will be every broker you've ever traded with, because you wouldn't invest your money with a company you didn't trust) and they are regulated by an outside body, they have to stand by their claims or face said regulatory bodies wrath, no? Does this means that slippage does occur but someone is paying a few hundred dollars out of pocket to compensate me as a customer? Maybe, but I don't care so long as my trades are wholly unaffected.

Maybe you should start a thread to see if slippage has occurred on a "no slippage" platform. That may be interesting.
  • #45
  • Jun 5, 2009 3:45pm Jun 5, 2009 3:45pm
Quoting sfx
which will be every broker you've ever traded with, because you wouldn't invest your money with a company you didn't trust
There are varying degrees of trust. I certainly trust my bank more than I trust a forex broker, and thus I have 100x money in the bank versus the broker.

I suppose you might be right, you're not seeing slippage, and I should give them a run. I suspect you're losing out on something pretty significant though in order to get that guarantee. Certainly you'll never see any slippage past a TP order.
  • #46
  • Jun 5, 2009 5:30pm Jun 5, 2009 5:30pm
Quoting fxbillie
FXCM is probably the biggest name as FX broker. I have been with them over 5 years and I have never seen such a slippage, nor have I seen them not willing to correct or redress it. This is quite a shock to me. Perhaps they have changed. Quite disappointed because I like to stick with a big and secure broker.

But without this sense of protection when you walk away from your computer, how can any trader feel secure to entrust your money to any broker? Yes, I wish they have a stop loss slippage insurance (perhaps charge .1 pip per trade) so that...
This may have already been answered, but I guess I'll chime in as well. Although a 135 pip slip is unfortunate, and MAY involve some broker impropriety, what you are seeking simply doesn't exist. There's no such thing as a "slippage guarantee" or a guarantee that a stop loss order will be filled at any price.

You may want to research the definition of a stop order. A stop order is simply an instruction to the broker to execute a MARKET ORDER once the stop price has been reached. It is NOT an agreement that your order will be filled at a specified price. This goes for stocks, futures, forex, you name it. So, in a fast moving market, it is entirely conceivable that you could be filled 135 pips away from your stop price. Did you see NFP today? The market moved 100 pips in like 2 seconds. If you were in a position the wrong way with a stop loss order, you would have been "slipped" 100 pips at least.

Anyway, just wanted to offer that clarification if it may help. You may still decide that the broker is no good, maybe due to slow execution of orders, etc., but as mentioned, to my knowledge there is no such thing as a guaranteed fill on ANY stop order, at any broker, in any financial market.

For what it's worth...
  • #47
  • Jun 5, 2009 6:36pm Jun 5, 2009 6:36pm
Quoting blazespinnaker
There are varying degrees of trust. I certainly trust my bank more than I trust a forex broker, and thus I have 100x money in the bank versus the broker.
Errrrrrmmmmmmmmm where have you been, have you not noticed all the banks which nearly failed and required several Trillion $$$'s of bailout, in the opening few months of the recession / depression with many more years to go.

The only safe place is under your matress 2% and 2% buried in various holes through out your local forest
Nothing to it, but to do it!!! Stick to the plan FOOL!!!!
  • #48
  • Jun 5, 2009 6:37pm Jun 5, 2009 6:37pm
And DO NOT HOLD EVER EVER AGAIN over NFP.


That woulda wiped out my recently reloaded account in 1 trade if I'd of done that Well very near!!
Nothing to it, but to do it!!! Stick to the plan FOOL!!!!
  • #49
  • Jun 5, 2009 6:46pm Jun 5, 2009 6:46pm
Quoting blazespinnaker
The question is, and I'd like to seem some transparency around this, is are we seeing the exact same slippage past TP orders as we are past SL orders?

Unless we get transparency around that, I think complaining about slippage is fully justified.
Yeah, I think the FXCM rep answered your question already, here

I think there is a very easy solution, if you don't trust these shops and you think they're ripping you off then trade on a true ECN, or trade futures, why would you want to do business with someone you don't trust?

Whenever a broker is counterparty or intermediary to your trades there will always be a potential conflict of interest, it's inevitable. That obviously leads to mistrust especially when events like this happen.

Personally I'd just accept rare occurrences like this as part and parcel of trading across volatile data, the risk is mine and I accepted it, after all no-one forced me to trade.
  • #50
  • Jun 5, 2009 6:47pm Jun 5, 2009 6:47pm
Quoting Turveyd

The only safe place is under your matress 2% and 2% buried in various holes through out your local forest
Where do you live again......
  • #51
  • Jun 5, 2009 6:50pm Jun 5, 2009 6:50pm
Quoting pipmutt
Where do you live exactly......
I was wondering if someone would ask that.

Sadly I find my entire wealth fits in my right pocket and my wallet easily all at the same time

Ohhhh the GF's already gotten her mitts on it
Nothing to it, but to do it!!! Stick to the plan FOOL!!!!
  • #52
  • Jun 5, 2009 10:02pm Jun 5, 2009 10:02pm
Quoting pipmutt
Yeah, I think the FXCM rep answered your question already, here
I know the active trader platform is pure NDD/STP .. but this wasn't done on the Active Trader platform.

Quote
I think there is a very easy solution, if you don't trust these shops and you think they're ripping you off then trade on a true ECN, or trade futures, why would you want to do business with someone you don't trust?

I do trade on a pure ECN. Though you can't beat the spread on some of the bucketshops.. (ie, Oanda)

Quote
Whenever a broker is counterparty or intermediary to your trades there will always be a potential conflict of interest, it's inevitable. That obviously leads to mistrust especially when events like this happen.

Personally I'd just accept rare occurrences like this as part and parcel of trading across volatile data, the risk is mine and I accepted it, after all no-one forced me to trade.

I agree with everything here, except that I don't think we should just roll over and be happy about it. We need to push the brokers for greater transparency.
  • #53
  • Edited 3:16am Jun 6, 2009 3:05am | Edited 3:16am
Thanks guys for your input. You all have merits in your points. I will check out the recommended brokers to see what they can offer. Perhaps as you state, none can do enough guarantee in the current market volatility. But Blazespinnaker has a point, to be fair, slippage has to work both ways for both stops and TP. Will brokers stand by that? Another point is broker's execution speed (their computer & trading setup) during slippage. Can this contribute to different slippage among brokers?

Perhaps my inquiry suggests I am a newbie. Just to keep the record straight, I have been trading over 8 years now in Froex (none other), starting with the now defunct Refco, and switching to FXCM after that. I must say FXCM has been fair & good to me in the past. When they screwed in the stops, they fixed. So I never had to worry about the broker side of my trade. But perhaps either they change (now not a dealing desk), or that the market is now truly too volatile lately (as some of you oldies know this wasn't like this bad in the past).

I am from the Pacific North West. I have always traded London, studied the market, timed my trade, locked in profit or set stop & went to sleep. I either got stopped or hit TP as expected, even with all the news releases of NY. With a good strategy I grew my mini account 1000%+ last year, even during the melt down (not trying to sell my strategy but I can email my statement if you think I am bsing), but my stops always got honored without this kind of slippage. This is the first time. Perhaps I was lucky in the past. Perhaps this is not FXCM fault, but a wake up call for me to change my strategy. Thank you all for the input.

Fxbillie
  • #54
  • Jun 6, 2009 3:45am Jun 6, 2009 3:45am
Quoting blazespinnaker

I do trade on a pure ECN. Though you can't beat the spread on some of the bucketshops.. (ie, Oanda)
lol, you do realize that shops like Oanda are just about the most expensive way to trade retail don't you?

They advertise 'no commission .5 pip spread on Eur/Usd' just to get punters through the door but they're not a charity, in reality you're probably paying something like 0.05% round turn compared to around 0.012% on an ECN, that's exorbitant! Across data it's likely to be closer to 0.25%!!!

Despite that, Oanda do have a niche in the market, they're ideal for small accounts because they offer no minimum trade size which allows even a $100 account to exercise proper money management, that's their only benefit.

No free lunch at Oanda I'm afraid
  • #55
  • Jun 6, 2009 8:30am Jun 6, 2009 8:30am
Quoting fxbillie
But Blazespinnaker has a point, to be fair, slippage has to work both ways for both stops and TP. Will brokers stand by that? Another point is broker's execution speed (their computer & trading setup) during slippage. Can this contribute to different slippage among brokers?

TP's rarely get slipped. You might think this is evidence of underhand tactics by your broker but you should consider that your TP is a limit order, and these are often given priority over other order types.

If you have a long position, and price flies up to your TP in a fast moving market, buyers are forcing the price up in search of sellers to come into the market. So your sell limit order TP is going to get consumed extremely quickly by the abundance of buyers and so favourable slippage on TP is unlikely.

Now consider that if your long entry didn't do quite so well and price is headed to your SL (which is a stop order, meaning it will go to market when that price is hit) in a fast moving market. Sellers are dominating buyers. There are not enough buy orders in the market and so price is falling. Your sell order becomes just one of many, and there were too many in the first place, which is why your Stop Loss got hit. So in this scenario, in a fast moving market, your stop is likely going to get slipped.
  • #56
  • Edited 8:47pm Jun 6, 2009 9:30am | Edited 8:47pm
Quoting fxbillie
My broker (FXCM) just dealt me a 135 pips loss per lot past my stop loss which was set to break even last night. They refuse to retract the charge of the loss saying that they cannot guarantee my manually set stop loss, nor trailing stop which is used to lock in profit.

I can understand slippage of 30-50 pips, but 135 pips slippage? It seems to me a broker has total control on what price they can close me out instead of my stop. Where is the security for a trader?

They seem to have changed from past practices. A few years back I had stop loss...
No matter what everyone else says on this thread I think that you have been hardly done by. You did the right thing and you had a stop loss in place, you could not have done any more to protect your trade. The market didn't gap 135 pips in a second so your positions could have been closed with much less slippage. The chart posted by Jsales/FXCM is a 5 minute chart that looks a bit melodramatic with its big red 5 minutes candle but proves nothing at all really. It's just daylight robbery!!

Anyway, this is not an ideal place here to get a resolution to this problem. The forum is infested with broker reps posing as novice traders so they are hardly going to support your case. At the very least this should serve as a warning to other traders.
  • #57
  • Jun 6, 2009 10:10am Jun 6, 2009 10:10am
Quoting PipStar
The chart posted by Jsales/FXCM is a 1 hour chart that looks a bit melodramatic with its big red 1 hour candle but proves nothing at all really. It's just daylight robbery!!

Anyway, this is not an ideal place here to get a resolution to this problem. The forum is infested with broker reps posing as novice traders so they are hardly going to support your case. At the very least this should serve as a warning to other traders.

"...broker reps posing as novice traders...", lol, give me a break!

You might have a bit more credibility if you had the sense to see it's a 5 minute chart not a 1 hour chart, here's a clue if you really need it.....


http://i39.tinypic.com/344b53k.jpg
  • #58
  • Jun 6, 2009 11:26am Jun 6, 2009 11:26am
To know whether FXCM was unfair to me and its traders of GBP crosses, the only way then is to go to those massive threads of GBP crosses on this and other popular forums and ask if they have been hit with massive slippage too in a long position around the same time. In this thread, at least one of you posted that he got massive slippage too from FXCM, so how about from other brokers?

There should be a lot of long positions because GBP was really in a bull move and there was a large retracement of 300+ pips to below 1.6300, and my trade was timed to the bounce right past that level. Everybody was expecting a correction & then buy the dip when it started bouncing. In fact my trade was up over 100 pips at one time before the bad news. How cruel to think even a trailing stop may not be guaranteed in a huge slippage.

If TP does not get large slippage or any slippage at all in a long TP position, how about a short TP position. What if I had shorted at say, 1.6400 and TP at 1.6310 (where my stop was), do I get 135 pips TP slippage in extra profit? Just to be fair to traders. Don't you think so?
  • #59
  • Edited 12:44pm Jun 6, 2009 12:33pm | Edited 12:44pm
Quoting pipmutt
lol, you do realize that shops like Oanda are just about the most expensive way to trade retail don't you?

They advertise 'no commission .5 pip spread on Eur/Usd' just to get punters through the door but they're not a charity, in reality you're probably paying something like 0.05% round turn compared to around 0.012% on an ECN, that's exorbitant! Across data it's likely to be closer to 0.25%!!!

Despite that, Oanda do have a niche in the market, they're ideal for small accounts because they offer no minimum trade size which allows even...
I trade Oanda and I frequently only see .9 pip round trip on E/U. Any experienced Oanda trader here will attest to the same experience. I've never seen 5 pips for EU on Oanda except during news / weekends. And yes, across news they do suck.

You can see the same thing kind of prices on pure ECN as long as you have min trades above 150K and very significant volume.
  • #60
  • Jun 6, 2009 12:40pm Jun 6, 2009 12:40pm
Quoting birdt
TP's rarely get slipped. You might think this is evidence of underhand tactics by your broker but you should consider that your TP is a limit order, and these are often given priority over other order types.
Interesting ... this is what FXCM does? Does anyone have a cite?

So why not set a Stop Loss to a limit order instead of a market order? Will a TP not execute if the limit order is rejected because of fast moving market (ie, it doesn't convert to a market order?)

Quote
Now consider that if your long entry didn't do quite so well and price is headed to your SL (which is a stop order, meaning it will go to market when that price is hit) in a fast moving market. Sellers are dominating buyers. There are not enough buy orders in the market and so price is falling. Your sell order becomes just one of many, and there were too many in the first place, which is why your Stop Loss got hit. So in this scenario, in a fast moving market, your stop is likely going to get slipped.

This is a bit confusing because it seems like you're ignoring the fact that TP/SL should be agnostic to whether you're going long or short.
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