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Stop Loss vs. Hidden Stop Loss

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  • Post #1
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  • First Post: Jul 16, 2012 11:41am Jul 16, 2012 11:41am
  •  N_na_nah
  • | Joined Jun 2010 | Status: Member | 41 Posts
Hello fellows for around the globe !

From the prospective of these ECN brokers, MB Trading and Dukascopy what are the possibilities to hunt stop to the grade that will justify to use hidden stop loss.
I would love to read your comments as it will help me to decide about the matter.
  • Post #2
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  • Jul 16, 2012 12:43pm Jul 16, 2012 12:43pm
  •  duyk20
  • | Joined Oct 2010 | Status: Member | 1,539 Posts
They don't have money to hunt your Stop-Loss. Those who hunt your stops are those who you are trading against with.

Use Hard Stop Loss because you'll be reluctant to close your positions when using mental Stop Loss.
 
 
  • Post #3
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  • Jul 16, 2012 1:19pm Jul 16, 2012 1:19pm
  •  gspajon
  • | Commercial Member | Joined Jan 2007 | 1,063 Posts
If your computer is running use an EA to "Hide" your stop. I use one I wrote. I enter a price and the computer closes a trade (limit or stop) just the same as if the broker did it. However, if your computer is not running or if a power outage occurs I hard stop is better than nothing.

Broker's DO hunt stops don't let anyone tell you otherwise. But it also depends on where you stop is relative to current price. If your stop is a round number that is only 20 pips away...guess what...you're stopped out.

However if you keep your stop outside the broker's range (how you wish to calculate that is up to you), it is less likely that you will be stopped out. I use 25 pips either side of the current day's high or low most brokers will have to use a lot of money to hunt your stop there...unless price is already there.

If you use MT4, your broker has a back end mechanism to spike the price or even change the candle to get your stop. I've personally seen the screen.

Stopping out is part of the game and if used correctly is a safety mechanism...but don't announce it to your broker, he'll/she'll find a way to tag it and take your money.
 
 
  • Post #4
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  • Jul 16, 2012 1:59pm Jul 16, 2012 1:59pm
  •  N_na_nah
  • | Joined Jun 2010 | Status: Member | 41 Posts
Quoting gspajon
Disliked
If you use MT4, your broker has a back end mechanism to spike the price or even change the candle to get your stop. I've personally seen the screen.
Ignored
I am really concern about your statment, do you think NFA will let such a robbery in broad daylight ?
 
 
  • Post #5
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  • Jul 16, 2012 2:04pm Jul 16, 2012 2:04pm
  •  N_na_nah
  • | Joined Jun 2010 | Status: Member | 41 Posts
Quoting duyk20
Disliked
They don't have money to hunt your Stop-Loss. Those who hunt your stops are those who you are trading against with.

Use Hard Stop Loss because you'll be reluctant to close your positions when using mental Stop Loss.
Ignored
That's make a lot of sense. I never have been thinking from this approach.
 
 
  • Post #6
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  • Jul 16, 2012 2:42pm Jul 16, 2012 2:42pm
  •  gspajon
  • | Commercial Member | Joined Jan 2007 | 1,063 Posts
Quoting N_na_nah
Disliked
I am really concern about your statment, do you think NFA will let such a robbery in broad daylight ?
Ignored
its not in "broad daylight" as you put it. It is within the confines of the near term market movements. Example: You enter long EUR/USD at 1.2210. You place your stop at 1.2290. (20 pips). Price moves up slightly to 1.2215 then falls to 1.2195. How much of a stretch is it for the broker to see your (and many other's stops) and say, "...whoops my liquidity fell off and I had to widen my spread slightly..." or "...my liquidity provider quoted a small 5 pip spike but only for a second..."

What is the NFA going to do about that? How will they be made aware of it? Are you going to whine to the NFA (or your broker for that matter) over your mini lot trade that stopped out at 20 pips? They won't even give you the time of day...but don't doubt it...it does happen. So say it doesn't or its too much money is just putting your head in the sand...

Plan for their crap and use it against them.
 
 
  • Post #7
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  • Jul 16, 2012 2:58pm Jul 16, 2012 2:58pm
  •  sidhujag
  • Joined Apr 2009 | Status: Non-Member | 4,719 Posts
Quoting gspajon
Disliked
If your computer is running use an EA to "Hide" your stop. I use one I wrote. I enter a price and the computer closes a trade (limit or stop) just the same as if the broker did it. However, if your computer is not running or if a power outage occurs I hard stop is better than nothing.

Broker's DO hunt stops don't let anyone tell you otherwise. But it also depends on where you stop is relative to current price. If your stop is a round number that is only 20 pips away...guess what...you're stopped out.

However if you keep your stop...
Ignored
stop giving misleading info mt4 server has a filter pa option which can change pa and its usually not changed this is why some brokers pa looks different than others. If mt4 had a spike feature im sure it woukd be shutdown in 2 days. Use ur head a little.
 
 
  • Post #8
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  • Jul 16, 2012 3:04pm Jul 16, 2012 3:04pm
  •  sidhujag
  • Joined Apr 2009 | Status: Non-Member | 4,719 Posts
Quoting N_na_nah
Disliked
Hello fellows for around the globe !

From the prospective of these ECN brokers, MB Trading and Dukascopy what are the possibilities to hunt stop to the grade that will justify to use hidden stop loss.
I would love to read your comments as it will help me to decide about the matter.
Ignored
ur stops matter this is why metals and oil have bigger moves om short tf. they are riskier plays. A close sl may get hunted if its near s&r. If your broker breaks those levels whike others dont then u can make a case there. But you would prob need to show proof of this say 5 times to make any cAse. If your dealing bigger tf then ur sl maynot need to be hidden because of money management.
 
 
  • Post #9
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  • Jul 17, 2012 4:35am Jul 17, 2012 4:35am
  •  gspajon
  • | Commercial Member | Joined Jan 2007 | 1,063 Posts
Quoting sidhujag
Disliked
stop giving misleading info mt4 server has a filter pa option which can change pa and its usually not changed this is why some brokers pa looks different than others. If mt4 had a spike feature im sure it woukd be shutdown in 2 days. Use ur head a little.
Ignored
Believe what you wish to believe...brokers don't stop hunt...the forex market cannot be manipulated...Santa Claus is alive and well...the Easter Bunny lays eggs...and we are all looking for our "pot-o-gold" at the end of the broker's rainbow.
 
 
  • Post #10
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  • Jul 17, 2012 4:57am Jul 17, 2012 4:57am
  •  marcmarc
  • Joined Feb 2010 | Status: Retired from the fray | 231 Posts
That some participants in the market hunt for stops is undoubtedly true but that's only because most stops tend to be grouped in similar areas and so make an easy target. You can minimise this by putting your stop somewhere else.

You should always hard stop in the market to ensure discipline and sound risk control. Having a stop hunted down now and again is irritating but nothing compared to being blown away by having no stop and the market racing away against you.
 
 
  • Post #11
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  • Jul 17, 2012 12:23pm Jul 17, 2012 12:23pm
  •  N_na_nah
  • | Joined Jun 2010 | Status: Member | 41 Posts
Quoting gspajon
Disliked
If you use MT4, your broker has a back end mechanism to spike the price or even change the candle to get your stop. I've personally seen the screen.
Ignored
What I mean by "broad light" is that if the broker change the candle you can take a screen shut of that and then compare it with other brokers, if you see that the candle in question is "unique" to this broker then you have a case for NFA and even to file a law suit.
 
 
  • Post #12
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  • Jul 17, 2012 12:26pm Jul 17, 2012 12:26pm
  •  N_na_nah
  • | Joined Jun 2010 | Status: Member | 41 Posts
Quoting marcmarc
Disliked
That some participants in the market hunt for stops is undoubtedly true but that's only because most stops tend to be grouped in similar areas and so make an easy target. You can minimise this by putting your stop somewhere else.

You should always hard stop in the market to ensure discipline and sound risk control. Having a stop hunted down now and again is irritating but nothing compared to being blown away by having no stop and the market racing away against you.
Ignored
Thanks. Your post makes a lot of sense.
 
 
  • Post #13
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  • Jul 18, 2012 2:56am Jul 18, 2012 2:56am
  •  gspajon
  • | Commercial Member | Joined Jan 2007 | 1,063 Posts
Quoting N_na_nah
Disliked
What I mean by "broad light" is that if the broker change the candle you can take a screen shut of that and then compare it with other brokers, if you see that the candle in question is "unique" to this broker then you have a case for NFA and even to file a law suit.
Ignored
Again it sounds like you chose not to believe what I say...and that's fine but your screen shot of a candle that is different with other brokers means NOTHING. I've seen a difference of as much as 20 pips from one broker to the next and the answer I've heard is..."that's what our liquidity provider has quoted us..." and then they pull out their quotes and prove it. Those quotes go right through the back screen I mentioned before and no one can prove otherwise.

You don't have to believe me its OK. Believe what you want...but why don't you investigate it for yourself if you really want to know. Don't ask here everyone here still believes in Santa Claus and their dealer's Pot-o-Gold.
 
 
  • Post #14
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  • Jul 18, 2012 9:55am Jul 18, 2012 9:55am
  •  spekitox
  • | Joined Sep 2008 | Status: Lucky Man | 2,267 Posts
ROFL don't forget the Earth is flat, smoking is good for your health and hey, I just saw Elvis alive!!

Quoting gspajon
Disliked
Santa Claus is alive and well...the Easter Bunny lays eggs...
Ignored
forget about tomorrow, just steal away into the night
 
 
  • Post #15
  • Quote
  • Jul 18, 2012 10:18am Jul 18, 2012 10:18am
  •  Fsk
  • | Commercial Member | Joined Jul 2012 | 18 Posts
In my opinion I feel that Stop Hunting does not exist like it used to. As long as a Trader is spending a good time in analysis looking at ATR and other volatility indicators, and simply placing their stop outside of these ranges, they should be ok.

I've personally seen traders who enter at exactly the wrong moment in the trend and range, and then blame the Broker when they are stopped out. Truth of the matter is the "spike" was due to the price level reaching a major S/R level.

Just my 2 cents..

~FOREX SWING KING
 
 
  • Post #16
  • Quote
  • Jul 18, 2012 10:19am Jul 18, 2012 10:19am
  •  FerruFx
  • Joined May 2007 | Status: MT4/MT5 EAs/Indicators/Alerts coder | 6,843 Posts | Online Now
Quoting gspajon
Disliked
Believe what you wish to believe...brokers don't stop hunt...the forex market cannot be manipulated...Santa Claus is alive and well...the Easter Bunny lays eggs...and we are all looking for our "pot-o-gold" at the end of the broker's rainbow.
Ignored
You should Google "MT4 virtual dealer plugin" and you will see that you are wrong.

There's also a thread on FF talking about this : http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=70582
MT4/MT5 EAs/Indicators/Alerts coder
 
 
  • Post #17
  • Quote
  • Jul 18, 2012 10:23am Jul 18, 2012 10:23am
  •  CindyXXXX
  • Joined Feb 2008 | Status: Member | 6,736 Posts
Whether you hide your stops or not, won't change the fact that a million other people will have stops sitting in the same place as you do or "mentally" do... These prices will inevitably become a target for those annoying people who are much bigger than you and who seek liquidity in order to fill their own large trades/ orders.

Don't take it personally, it's just business, as they say.
Time hides Nothing
 
 
  • Post #18
  • Quote
  • Jul 18, 2012 10:57am Jul 18, 2012 10:57am
  •  60minuteman
  • | Commercial Member | Joined Feb 2012 | 3,770 Posts
Brokers aren't interested in your stop loss
tradewith60
 
 
  • Post #19
  • Quote
  • Jul 18, 2012 12:37pm Jul 18, 2012 12:37pm
  •  pipmutt
  • Joined Apr 2008 | Status: Parsimony Rulez! | 3,548 Posts
Quoting 60minuteman
Disliked

Brokers aren't interested in your stop loss
Ignored
They're interested in all orders if they provide liquidity, they quote according to their book, their liquidity providers quotes, and the underlying market. They quote what they want, to who they want, and fill what they want. It's all in the small print somewhere and all perfectly legal.

If people are paranoid about their marketmaker purposely knocking out their stops then there's an easy solution, trade futures.
 
 
  • Post #20
  • Quote
  • Jul 18, 2012 1:34pm Jul 18, 2012 1:34pm
  •  60minuteman
  • | Commercial Member | Joined Feb 2012 | 3,770 Posts
Quoting pipmutt
Disliked
They're interested in all orders if they provide liquidity, they quote according to their book, their liquidity providers quotes, and the underlying market. They quote what they want, to who they want, and fill what they want. It's all in the small print somewhere and all perfectly legal.

If people are paranoid about their marketmaker purposely knocking out their stops then there's an easy solution, trade futures.
Ignored
sorry, brokers aren't interested in my stops... at least not recently
tradewith60
 
 
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