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Living in China, trading for a living 18 replies

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Trading for a living

  • #101
  • Sep 25, 2025 7:34am Sep 25, 2025 7:34am
Quoting medici
{quote} Glad you like it. I should also say that the version of statistical robustness that I have arrived at is based on Renko charts, and that there are abundant opportunities for creating solid strategies based on such charts. Some professional, beyond retail, platforms now offer Renko as an option.
I agree with you regarding statistical robustness. I personally have no knowledge or experience with Renko charts, nor am I very interested in learning more about them. Otherwise what I'm currently trying (or have been trying for a while) can also be seen as a purely mathematical/statistical approach.

I see the advantages in the time savings associated with manual/discretionary trading thanks to automation and the removal of emotional decision-making (which has never really helped me so far). However, I also realize that it might not produce the results I need.
  • #102
  • Sep 25, 2025 7:43am Sep 25, 2025 7:43am
I'd also be open to trying a hands-on approach to trading again, but I can't find any effective help here on how to approach it as objectively as possible and with a clear daily plan/structure, including risk management, etc. In my opinion, all the strategies or "systems" I see here in the forum are complete garbage, or they leave too much discretion, or they lack everything else about how to apply them daily to achieve a specific goal. In principle, not only here, but anywhere else you look online for potentially profitable strategies that somehow help you achieve a certain minimum profit target in the short term (monthly/quarterly). I honestly don't have the energy or desire to keep looking for such things or trying out countless things, wasting even more time and not getting any closer to a reliable minimum income from trading.
  • #103
  • Sep 25, 2025 9:20am Sep 25, 2025 9:20am
Quoting Noisy
{quote} I agree with you regarding statistical robustness. I personally have no knowledge or experience with Renko charts, nor am I very interested in learning more about them. Otherwise what I'm currently trying (or have been trying for a while) can also be seen as a purely mathematical/statistical approach. I see the advantages in the time savings associated with manual/discretionary trading thanks to automation and the removal of emotional decision-making (which has never really helped me so far). However, I also realize that it might not produce...
Thanks. I understand. To me one of the main advantages of Renko charts is that they allow purely quantitative and mechanical trading, but without the clunky platforms that usually come with it for a reasonable price (MT4/5 not least), and without losing the advantages of manual trading. So the best of both worlds.
  • #104
  • Sep 29, 2025 7:47am Sep 29, 2025 7:47am
Quoting medici
{quote} Thanks. I understand. To me one of the main advantages of Renko charts is that they allow purely quantitative and mechanical trading, but without the clunky platforms that usually come with it for a reasonable price (MT4/5 not least), and without losing the advantages of manual trading. So the best of both worlds.
Understand. My current approach is based on time of the day + some ADR calculation but that’s about it. It doesn’t require recognizing any chart patterns/formations and that’s what I like about it.
  • #105
  • Sep 29, 2025 10:34am Sep 29, 2025 10:34am
Quoting Noisy
{quote} Understand. My current approach is based on time of the day + some ADR calculation but that’s about it. It doesn’t require recognizing any chart patterns/formations and that’s what I like about it.
I'm with you there. I'd say that "statistical robustness" is a fancy way of saying "keep it simple, stupid." But I'm curious...you started this thread askinig for people to share tips, tricks, strategies, etc. If you've already got your approach set, what are you interested in learning from others?
  • #106
  • Sep 29, 2025 11:11am Sep 29, 2025 11:11am
Quoting medici
{quote} I'm with you there. I'd say that "statistical robustness" is a fancy way of saying "keep it simple, stupid." But I'm curious...you started this thread askinig for people to share tips, tricks, strategies, etc. If you've already have got your approach set, what are you interested in learning from others?
Yes, those are the right questions you're asking, and I still haven't found an answer (unfortunately).

As I said, I'm currently trading an opening range breakout strategy, which, according to current data, is profitable after 55 days, but I'm still afraid it's not sufficient for what I'm aiming for (generating a relatively consistent minimum income of say of at least 2% return on a monthly basis.

I've also done some backtests, and it seems to be a robust, profitable system in the long term, but the results can fluctuate, and I just don't know how I could bridge months or even several consecutive months of negative results/drawdowns.

Currently, I've made a plus of 3.5% after 55 days, but I've also already had a drawdown of -8.0%. Looking around, I'm seeing the opposite recommendation: with a drawdown of -8%, I should have a profitability of more like +16%. So, a profit:drawdown ratio closer to 2:1. That could still change, of course; as I said, these are only 55 days of my live forward results.

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A good profit to max drawdown (also called Return Over Maximum Drawdown or Calmar Ratio) ratio is generally 2.0 or higher, though the definition of "good" varies by strategy and investor goals. A ratio of 2:1 or better is often seen as a strong performance, meaning your strategy's return is double the size of its biggest dip.

What I can say so far is that while trading less strongly correlated instruments reduces risk/drawdown, it doesn't really contribute to profitability, especially not over shorter periods. The strategy currently trades three accounts. I started with one account that trades five indices (DAX, FTSE, DOW, NASTAQ, S&P 500). Due to the strong positive correlation and increased drawdown, I then created two more accounts: one that trades DAX, NASTAQ, and Gold under the same parameters (8 days old, +5.5% profit, -0.6% maximum drawdown), and another that trades exclusively DAX (8 days old, +1.3% profit, -0.5% maximum drawdown).

It's incredibly difficult to find truly effective help that shows you how to achieve a clear goal with trading. All I've found so far is some good "general" advice, but none of it has really been practical. It's really tiring after over 15 years of trading (albeit not full-time) with the sole goal of generating a consistent income that would allow me to live off of it. Sometimes I think I'm either not smart enough or I've just not had any luck so far.
  • #107
  • Sep 30, 2025 2:53am Sep 30, 2025 2:53am
Quoting sharingan9
{quote} Respectfully I completely disagree as there are strategies that can give you consistent results longterm by simply following mechanical rules. Financial institutions wouldn't invest in a net losing industry so there is profit to be made in the markets else there would be no successful retail traders. The price changes in terms of price movement but the market's general behavior stays same which is why the market can be predicted. There are traders that trade discretionarily such as PA traders and they are successful in trading pretty much...
Thank you so much for your post. Can you please let us know if your video series has been done and where we can see them.
  • #108
  • Sep 30, 2025 2:56am Sep 30, 2025 2:56am
Lurking around and was wondering if anybody is really trading for a living ?
I mean, trading perf as main income
  • #109
  • Edited 11:29am Oct 1, 2025 2:26am | Edited 11:29am
Quoting Noisy
{quote}
It's incredibly difficult to find truly effective help that shows you how to achieve a clear goal with trading. All I've found so far is some good "general" advice, but none of it has really been practical. It's really tiring after over 15 years of trading (albeit not full-time) with the sole goal of generating a consistent income that would allow me to live off of it. Sometimes I think I'm either not smart enough or I've just not had any luck so far,
Yes, it's a difficult game, and one of the main challenges, I think, are that people come into it with unrealistic expectations as to what's possible, and false presuppositions about how that may be done. Yes, of course, it's possible to make a living trading, but the presuppositions on the 'how' seem often to be far off the mark.

When it comes to help and assistance, let me share briefly my experience. Over the years I've had my fair share of unsolicited PMs with requests for help. Most could of course be dismissed at the outset, but with the few who have managed to sweet talk me into sharing, the outcome has invariably been the same. For example, I shared in brief the complete details of a profitable trading system with someone, but apparently my instructions weren't rich and explanatory enough, so instead of asking questions the persons started to be increasingly and unprovokedly rude with me. As if I owed them something in the first place! This phenomenon has happened on more than one occasion.

From this I draw the conclusion that most people who want to make an easy living trading are not very nice people. Why help such people?

At the opposite end of the scale, before I set off to do trading full time I was employed half time by a university to teach finance at postgrad level. As part of a course on the statistics of risk management I used to teach the students a profitable trading system. This was an interesting experiment. Everyone was hugely profitable in backtesting and demo trading. But among those who after that ventured forth and opened an account to trade their own money, the failure rate was 90-95%. Something worth reflecting on. Only one guy survived and was, when I last heard from him, working as a trader for an energy hedge fund.

I've got one successful experience of sharing things, and that's with someone who is truly passionate about the markets and spends seemingly all available hours in front of the screens. A nice considerate person too, and notably he was profitable before we started collaborating. And we met through a chat room, not FF.

So, to summarise, that's the context into which your initial post dropped for me.

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I've made a plus of 3.5% after 55 days, but I've also already had a drawdown of -8.0%. Looking around, I'm seeing the opposite recommendation: with a drawdown of -8%, I should have a profitability of more like +16%. So, a profit:drawdown ratio closer to 2:1. That could still change, of course; as I said, these are only 55 days of my live forward results.

That doesn't sound good. To me something like Profit Factor, Average Reward/Risk Ratio, or Profit/Drawdown Ratio is the most important statistic. I want it to be closer to three than two on a daily basis rather than over time. I would recommend designing your system around that, perhaps starting with reward:risk.
  • #110
  • Oct 1, 2025 11:49am Oct 1, 2025 11:49am
I have 9 years of experience in trading. It took me 2-3 years to become profitable, and afterwards also took time to develop discipline and manage emotions.
I have read over 1000 books to achieve the knowledge I currently have.
My path: 1. Fundamental analysis and macroeconomics (this is mostly taught at colleges), 2. Technical analysis (read every book under the sun), 3. Analysis like sentiment, client positioning 4. Risk management 5. Consistency

I had to do it all of my own, books were my mentors
  • #111
  • Oct 1, 2025 12:31pm Oct 1, 2025 12:31pm
Quoting Noisy
Hi everyone, I wanted to start this thread to connect with others who are on the journey of making a full-time living from trading. Many of us share the same goals: creating consistent income, managing risk, and building a lifestyle where trading can support us. But as we know, it’s not an easy path, and it helps a lot to exchange ideas, strategies, and experiences. Some questions to get the conversation rolling: What has helped you most in moving towards consistent profitability? Do you focus on day trading, swing trading, or longer-term investing?...
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Have you listened to any Al Brooks videos? He went from being an eye surgeon to a full time trader in the 1980s.
  • #112
  • Oct 2, 2025 7:30am Oct 2, 2025 7:30am
I'm a full-time trader who just left college. Finished it. One piece of advice that so many people need to hear is that , trading isn't hard , you don't need all the chart makeup or too much of it , you just need one edge that you KNOW works , not one that you think works , and only trade that edge.

People will see this and get bored , or feel that sense of effort of having to wait , but it's true. Trading isn't hard , you make it hard by seeing it as hard.
  • #113
  • Oct 2, 2025 11:04am Oct 2, 2025 11:04am
As expected, a lot of people here, claiming they are "full-time" trader, or read 49817 books or are "pro-trader"...
But nothing concrete about income/perf apparently !
  • #114
  • Oct 2, 2025 1:21pm Oct 2, 2025 1:21pm
Quoting medici
{quote} Yes, it's a difficult game, and one of the main challenges, I think, are that people come into it with unrealistic expectations as to what's possible, and false presuppositions about how that may be done.
Hi. Yes, I agree with you.

Quote
When it comes to help and assistance, let me share briefly my experience. Over the years I've had my fair share of unsolicited PMs with requests for help. Most could of course be dismissed at the outset, but with the few who have managed to sweet talk me into sharing, the outcome has invariably been the same. For example, I shared in brief the complete details of a profitable trading system with someone, but apparently my instructions weren't rich and explanatory enough, so instead of asking questions the persons started to be increasingly and unprovokedly...

I can understand that too. I also think it's not easy to teach people how to trade. If I ever manage to achieve my trading goals, I'll try to help others do the same. Giving back is more fulfilling than making money.

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At the opposite end of the scale, before I set off to do trading full time I was employed half time by a university to teach finance at postgrad level. As part of a course on the statistics of risk management I used to teach the students a profitable trading system. This was an interesting experiment. Everyone was hugely profitable in backtesting and demo trading. But among those who after that ventured forth and opened an account to trade their own money, the failure rate was 90-95%. Something worth reflecting on.

That's impressive. I don't have a university degree. I trained as an IT specialist and then worked for a few years at various companies, but I quickly realized that this corporate life with fixed schedules and a nice looking business card wasn't for me. Since then, I've been working as a freelancer, but things haven't been going well for the last few years, and on top of that, I've had health and family problems. I've also burned through quite a bit of money, so that a realistic return of 2% a month (I believe that’s realistic), I don't even have nearly enough equity to finance my life and also put something aside for retirement. I would have to find ways to get enough capital but even more important a profitable approach in the first place that is going to work for me.

Quote
That doesn't sound good. To me something like Profit Factor, Average Reward/Risk Ratio, or Profit/Drawdown Ratio is the most important statistic. I want it to be closer to three than two on a daily basis rather than over time. I would recommend designing your system around that, perhaps starting with reward:risk.

Yes, I also think these are important metrics to know and keep an eye on. Unfortunately, I see many people doing everything based on gut feeling, which isn't my style. I'm very structured, logical, and systematic in everything I do. So far, that just hasn't gotten me anywhere :-) You mean a 1:3 risk/reward ratio on a daily basis. How is that possible? Does that mean you have a certain daily goal instead of looking at it over a longer period of time? I think that's probably only achievable with a manual chart reading approach. I've spent so many hours over the past few years looking at charts and acting on what I "think" I see, but unfortunately, I didn't get anywhere, and it only led to a burn-out, especially since I was already working in IT and watched computer screens all day long nearly 10-12 hours a day over 15 years.
  • #115
  • Oct 2, 2025 10:12pm Oct 2, 2025 10:12pm
Quoting RealizedPrft
I'm a full-time trader who just left college. Finished it. One piece of advice that so many people need to hear is that , trading isn't hard , you don't need all the chart makeup or too much of it , you just need one edge that you KNOW works , not one that you think works , and only trade that edge. People will see this and get bored , or feel that sense of effort of having to wait , but it's true. Trading isn't hard , you make it hard by seeing it as hard.
Quote
People will see this and get bored , or feel that sense of effort of having to wait , but it's true. Trading isn't hard , you make it hard by seeing it as hard.

Cannot agree more on this... Another pro here. I used to adopt a very complicated approach - quantitative modeling with order flow, inter-market correlation and intra-market capital flows. But now I would say nothing could beat my moving averages.
  • #116
  • Edited 3:10am Oct 3, 2025 2:29am | Edited 3:10am
Quoting Noisy
{quote} I'm actually looking for people who KNOW and can PROOF how they make a living from trading or at least give really helpful tips (not people surviving and living in third world countries or having X other sources of income on the side e.g selling Courses, EAs, Advertising, A retirement check, etc.) and call themselves „full-time“ traders doing this for a living.
Hey Noisy,

I have never met a person who trade for living but I'm here since 2017, so it is 8 years already.
Even me - I trade but I have 2 full time jobs as well. To have pension and to cover possible risks and so on.


Quote

  1. What has helped you most in moving towards consistent profitability?
  2. Do you focus on day trading, swing trading, or longer-term investing?
  3. How do you deal with the pressure of needing to cover regular monthly expenses while trading income can be irregular?
  4. What resources, tools, or routines have been game-changers for you?


  1. Only math and RickM helped me to have consistent profit
    2. There are no such a thing like day or swing or short term or long term. Everything depends on the market condition (volume)
    3. I also have 2 full time jobs, big family and a mortgage no pressure at all ahahahaa
    4. Python, MQL, math, coding and common sense

    Remember, shovel sellers earn more than gold miners

    P.S. This is not a game. Don't call it game. There are extremely experienced guys on the other side you try to "play" against
    You think you can find one or two simple rules to be profitable... but it is complicated in real. For example, I guess, you don't know what "sandwich attack on DAX" is or what MEV (Maximal Extractable Value) is for. So if if want to be profitable you have to learn much.

Observer effect
  • #117
  • Oct 3, 2025 2:33am Oct 3, 2025 2:33am
Quoting hashzar
{quote} Thank you so much for your post. Can you please let us know if your video series has been done and where we can see them.
Hey buddy. Sorry for the delay as we've talked before about the videos. Life got busy but Im finishing up the videos as we speak and I should have them uploaded by Sunday, Monday the latest. I got all the templates ready. Here are a few examples of trades I took recently using daily pivots as targets.

Below is GBPCAD long off daily mS2(midpoint level between S1 and S2). Notice how when price hits the daily mS2 and fails to reach the current H1 S1. When this happens this means the market is considering the mS2 as a bullish interpretation or in other words a level from which price will rise:

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Here is short on GU taken Wednesday at US session start:


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Another short I took today during Asian session on CHFJPY that I am currently in:


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We will see how CHFJPY develops. I will scan for setups in London and US session. I anticipate setups to occur after the NFP. Same setup. Trade when buyers and sellers agree on the same interpretation which determines the future value of the asset.
  • #118
  • Oct 3, 2025 3:09am Oct 3, 2025 3:09am
Quoting DavidFry
As expected, a lot of people here, claiming they are "full-time" trader, or read 49817 books or are "pro-trader"... But nothing concrete about income/perf apparently !
Even if we were to give you these proof of income and statements, couldnt you just say they were fake or doctored? What with AI and all. The only way to truly see if someone trades for a living is to watch them log into their bank account and trading account and show you everything in person and noone is going to do that here. You can verify if they can trade efficiently by trying their strategy though. Wish you green pips.
  • #119
  • Oct 3, 2025 3:15am Oct 3, 2025 3:15am
Quoting RealizedPrft
... it's true. Trading isn't hard , you make it hard by seeing it as hard.
Right. It's the money. The money makes it hard.

If these charts were about.... "water quality".... it would be easy. See the charts start to change direction and counter with some chlorine or ash.

It's the money that makes it seem so difficult.
  • #120
  • Oct 3, 2025 4:53am Oct 3, 2025 4:53am
Quoting Noisy
{quote} I've been working as a freelancer, but things haven't been going well for the last few years, and on top of that, I've had health and family problems.
Sorry to hear about your challenges. I've certainly had, and have, mine. While it can be hard, I try to see them as opportunities for growth, and I remind myself that a life of complacency and free of problems can be very meaningless.

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I don't even have nearly enough equity to finance my life and also put something aside for retirement. I would have to find ways to get enough capital but even more important a profitable approach in the first place that is going to work for me.

The situation for many of us. But you seem to have found the prop firm option, which can be a good way to reduce personal financial exposure, and to increase levergage.

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If I ever manage to achieve my trading goals, I'll try to help others do the same.

How are you going to find out whether you will be able to achieve your goals without wasting too much time? Difficult question perhaps, but I think it means that you need to have a plan, so that you can acknowledge any lostness or stuckness to yourself and find a remedy.

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I'm very structured, logical, and systematic in everything I do. So far, that just hasn't gotten me anywhere :-)

Are you assuming that the markets are more structured and logical than they actually are? There's plenty of noise, and there are market makers who like to trip people up. Perhaps something that filters out the few moments when there is genuine opportunity is needed?

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You mean a 1:3 risk/reward ratio on a daily basis. How is that possible?

Yup, that's the target. It's possible by trading the cash open for the market underlying the stock index futures contract I am trading. Used to be FDAX, then YM, then ES, now NQ.

Why? Because there is typically a lot of movement at market open and some time after that.

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Does that mean you have a certain daily goal instead of looking at it over a longer period of time?

When I started out in index futures, 10 years ago, I traded FDAX. I had a daily average goal and turned off the computer when I had made my daily contribution. Those were wonderful and relaxing days, I doubled my money the first month, and the year ended really well.

Then I started dreaming of perfection and maximisation, the markets changed, my life circumstances changed, etc, and I was suddenly in a different place psychologically and professionally.

Now I'm back where I started with the same approach as I had with FDAX but now with NQ, but "von höheren Standpunkt aus" so to say, i.e. with a very much more solid model.

If I reach 50 points NQ or more I tend to turn things off, and I am cautious not to lose money on the days I don't. Which typically results in a weekly profit factor larger than 2.5 even on a less good week. Then there are sometimes better days, of course, but I am making no efforts. My partner has convinced me that that is the best approach.

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I think that's probably only achievable with a manual chart reading approach. I've spent so many hours over the past few years looking at charts and acting on what I "think" I see, but unfortunately, I didn't get anywhere, and it only led to a burn-out,

Absolutely, but one may do that using a very structured, logical, and rule based model. And spending hours in front of the screens does not make for a good life. Trading the way i do, I am sometimes done after 5 or 10 minutes.

Hope that helps in one way or another. Now lunch.
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