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Attachments: TMA-CG-2024
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TMA-CG-2024

Quoting yoriz
I saw several users mention the repainting. Apart from the arrow at the current bar that may appear and disappear, there is a bigger elephant in the room! It is important to understand what the "CG" in "TMA-CG" means: center-of-gravity; that is: centered moving averages. It means the indicator will use *future* data to draw its lines. For example, if you use a 21-bar MA, it will use the 10 past bars and the 10 future bars to calculate the MA! That gives nice smooth lines, but is obviously not possible on a live chart. When you drop the indicator...
Take a look at the source code, it doesn't use "future" data to draw its lines (is that even possible?).....

And although it says CG, it's actually just centered.

Lastly in your second picture, looks like you need to refresh the chart. Random arrows are drawn and no sell arrows.
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Quoting jblanked
Take a look at the source code, it doesn't use "future" data to draw its lines (is that even possible?).....
Yes, that is possible. When you drop the indicator on a chart, the indicator can see *all* the bars in the chart. So when calculate the indicator value at a certain bar, it can look ahead in time to bars right from the current bar.

When you leave the chart open, the indicator will get fresh new incoming bars. For those bars, it can not look ahead and will therefore show different behavior. As you can see in my screenshots, the lines are much less smooth.

Quoting jblanked
And although it says CG, it's actually just centered.
Exactly. "Centered" means calculating the MA in the center of a range of bars. As in my example, it means to calculate a 21-bar MA, you use the 10 bars left from that bar, and the 10 bars right from that bar.

Quoting jblanked
Lastly in your second picture, looks like you need to refresh the chart. Random arrows are drawn and no sell arrows.
Indeed! That is the behavior you will get on live data! And therefore also the data your EA will see if you feed it the indicator data.

Edit: you can see for yourself! Create a "dummy" EA (that does not trade), and create a chart template with the indicator that you save with the same name (e.g. if your dummy EA is named "dummy.ex5", then name the template "dummy.tpl"). Now run a visual backtest of the dummy EA, and MT5 will show you the chart with the indicator. You can now watch how the indicator behaves on live data.
Quoting yoriz
{quote} Yes, that is possible. When you drop the indicator on a chart, the indicator can see *all* the bars in the chart. So when calculate the indicator value at a certain bar, it can look ahead in time to bars right from the current bar. When you leave the chart open, the indicator will get fresh new incoming bars. For those bars, it can not look ahead and will therefore show different behavior. As you can see in my screenshots, the lines are much less smooth. {quote} Exactly. "Centered" means calculating the MA in the center of a range of bars....
There are a few misconceptions in your post.

1. No system exists that can read future data. If the future hasn’t happened yet, what would the system read? If we are backtesting and there is future data relative to that point in time (but still in the past compared to the current time), then yes, it could read that. However, that’s not the same as reading "future data."

2. What your second chart shows is not the behavior you will get with live data (multiple people, including myself, use this daily and can confirm). Your chart needs to be refreshed. Look at the examples from your peers—no one has had that issue brother.

3. The expert advisors I’ve released refresh indicator data at every candle close, which is equivalent to refreshing your chart with each new candle. They also use the previous candle’s data.

Lastly, I consider our back-and-forth a healthy conversation, not a disagreement. Conversations like these greatly enhance understanding.
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Quoting jblanked
If the future hasn’t happened yet, what would the system read?
Indicators calculating their value at a certain bar can read the data right from the bar they are calculating. Here is a simple proof: open a chart, drop the standard Simple Moving Average indicator on it with these settings:
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: screenshot.png Size: 16 KB

You will see that the indicator is able to use future data:
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: screenshot.png Size: 28 KB


And that is exactly what the TMA-CG is doing. It is centering the moving averages which gives nice smooth curves. The TMA is actually two LWMAs centered around a bar. To mimic something similar with the SMA, you could shift the SMA with half its period:
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: screenshot.png Size: 15 KB

That gives very nice smooth curves that exactly match the peaks and valleys of the price:
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: screenshot.png Size: 24 KB


But obviously you can not do that on live streaming data. You can see the MA lines stops before the righthand side of the screen because it lacks future data.

Quoting jblanked
2. What your second chart shows is not the behavior you will get with live data (multiple people, including myself, use this daily and can confirm). Your chart needs to be refreshed. Look at the examples from your peers—no one has had that issue brother.
If refreshing the chart means giving the indicator the chance to repaint itself using data snooping, then that is actually not useful in live trading. Yes, it will clean up the chart and give you pleasant smooth curves, but it is too late for an EA to act upon. Personally, I rather see the real raw data the indicator calculated during the live stream because that is the data my EA acts upon!

Please try to watch the indicator in the strategy tester as I suggested in my previous post. You will see the actual raw behavior of the indicator when it is not able to "cheat" with future data. Here is a recording of what I am seeing:
Inserted Video


At the start of the movie, note how more smooth the indicator looks on "old" data compared to the new incoming data!

Quoting jblanked
3. The expert advisors I’ve released refresh indicator data at every candle close, which is equivalent to refreshing your chart with each new candle.
Refreshing the chart will redraw the smooth lines on past data and that is not the reality. If you refresh the chart, then in 10 bars from now, it will still be updating the indicator lines it calculated for the current centered 21-bar MA! When you later look at the nice smooth lines, it may give the false impression it had already drawn those lines at the time of that bar, but in reality it kept adjusting the line even 10 bars after the fact.

Quoting jblanked
Lastly, I consider our back-and-forth a healthy conversation, not a disagreement. Conversations like these greatly enhance understanding.
Same here! Glad you take it that way! There is a lot to learn from each other on this forum if people would not take things personal or as criticism. There are threads where the OP became very hostile if people make suggestions or don't agree (thanks for supporting me in such a thread recently ;-)).
Quoting yoriz
{quote}You will see that the indicator is able to use future data:.
Some indicators can be moved forward or backward, but that doesn't mean future data
Quoting yoriz
{quote} Indicators calculating their value at a certain bar can read the data right from the bar they are calculating.
I think we're saying the same thing here; it can read "future data" when we are in the strategy tester/backtesting on historical data.

Quoting yoriz
{quote} If refreshing the chart means giving the indicator the chance to repaint itself using data snooping, then that is actually not useful in live trading. Yes, it will clean up the chart and give you pleasant smooth curves, but it is too late for an EA to act upon. Personally, I rather see the real raw data the indicator calculated during the live stream because that is the data my EA acts upon!
I do the same with MAs, RSIs, and all other data, refreshing at every candle close. It’s not data snooping—you could call it giving the indicator a chance to recalculate. In my experience, a refreshed version (of the TMA) is slightly more accurate than a non-refreshed version. I've used both in live trading, and both are useful.

Quoting yoriz
{quote} Please try to watch the indicator in the strategy tester as I suggested in my previous post. You will see the actual raw behavior of the indicator when it is not able to "cheat" with future data.
Thanks for sharing the video—it clears up some confusion. Are you using the TMA-CG-2024 from the first post, or a different version? Check out this video I made with the TMA-CG-2024 in the strategy tester:
Inserted Video


Quoting yoriz
{quote} There is a lot to learn from each other on this forum if people would not take things personal or as criticism.
Very VERY true man. Ego gets in the way of learning.
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Quoting Darwati
Some indicators can be moved forward or backward, but that doesn't mean future data
Not "future" in the sense of data that has not happened yet, but "future" in the sense that it is snooping data it should not have seen yet. In the first screenshot of my post above, you can see the indicator values represents data that is to the right of that data!

The formula to calculate the middle line of the TMA with period 3 is:

TMA[i] = (price[i-3] + 2*price[i-2] + 3*price[i-1] + 4*price[i] + 3*price[i+1] + 2*price[i+2] + price[i+3])/16


See how it uses future data! It can do that when you drop the indicator on a chart (because it can look to the right), but it can not do that on live data. So for the most recent bar, the calculation actually becomes:

TMA[i] = (price[i-3] + 2*price[i-2] + 3*price[i-1] + 4*price[i])/10


which is something entirely different!
Quoting yoriz
{quote} Not "future" in the sense of data that has not happened yet, but "future" in the sense that it is snooping data it should not have seen yet. In the first screenshot of my post above, you can see the indicator values represents data that is to the right of that data! The formula to calculate the middle line of the TMA with period 3 is: TMA = (price[i-3] + 2*price[i-2] + 3*price[i-1] + 4*price + 3*price[i+1] + 2*price[i+2] + price[i+3])/16 See how it uses future data! It can do that when you drop the indicator on a chart (because it...
different, better, etc., essentially indicators are just tools for making trading decisions

the reality of the strategy to achieve profit is more important

especially the strategy of using repainted TMA CG, I think that's more important
  • Post #69
  • Quote
  • Edited 9:37am Sep 18, 2024 9:12am | Edited 9:37am
Quoting jblanked
it can read "future data" when we are in the strategy tester/backtesting on historical data.
No, luckily when running the strategy tester the MT5 platform feeds the indicator tick-by-tick. It has no way to read future data. Otherwise the market place would be flooded with fake EAs that read future data.

(Note that some EAs on the market place require you to enable DLLs. Some of these abuse that power to actually read the historical data from MT5 and cheat!)

Quoting jblanked
giving the indicator a chance to recalculate.
As long as your EA only looks at the indicator value of the last bar that is ok, but I have noticed the arrows at past bars change when the indicator recalculates itself. That is too late for your EA. It would be better if the indicator would draw the updated arrow at the last bar (that is, at the time it actually decided to set that arrow), rather than update the arrow 10 bars in the past.

Quoting jblanked
Thanks for sharing the video—it clears up some confusion. Are you using the TMA-CG-2024 from the first post, or a different version? Check out this video I made with the TMA-CG-2024 in the strategy tester: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUq0SczFbaM
Yes, I am using the TMA-CG-2024 from the first post. Learned something new from your video: there is an "Indicator" option in the strategy tester. No need anymore to create a dummy EA and a chart template :-). Also with that indicator option I get the same behavior as you saw in my video.
look at the number 190 circled
This is the calculation of the TMA-CG Centerline with other indicators in real time on the EA,
often the value is positive but the display on candle 0 between the TMA-CG CenterLine and other indicators is still negative (sell)
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: XAUUSDM5.png Size: 31 KB


From there you can determine the strategy concept based on real time data values on candle 0,
not just based on the appearance of the indicators on the chart
  • Post #71
  • Quote
  • Edited 9:36am Sep 18, 2024 9:17am | Edited 9:36am
Quoting Darwati
different, better, etc., essentially indicators are just tools for making trading decisions the reality of the strategy to achieve profit is more important especially the strategy of using repainted TMA CG, I think that's more important
Yes, of course! Whatever works for you!

I once wrote an EA that I traded live with a substantial amount of money. After several months I discovered a huge bug in my code. Really flawed logic. But when I fixed the bug, the strategy was no longer profitable and I had to put the bug back into the code :-)

My point was that the various screenshots in this thread may give a too positive impression about the predictive power. In reality when using the indicator for live trading (either manually or with an EA) we are always at the rightmost side of the chart and there things look different.
Quoting yoriz
{quote} It has no way to read future data.
Yessir correct, it can only read current and historical data.

Quoting yoriz
{quote} It would be better if the indicator would draw the updated arrow at the last bar (that is, at the time it actually decided to set that arrow), rather than update the arrow 10 bars in the past.
As the lines are recalculated, so are the arrows. However, the recalculation isn't performed until the indicator is refreshed.

Quoting yoriz
{quote} Also with that indicator option I get the same behavior as you saw in my video.
Download the latest version from the Github link and let me know if that still happens. You're the first so far to have that issue with the TMA-CG-2024
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Quoting yoriz
{quote} Yes, of course! Whatever works for you! I once wrote an EA that I traded live with a substantial amount of money. After several months I discovered a huge bug in my code. Really flawed logic. But when I fixed the bug, the strategy was no longer profitable and I had to put the bug back into the code :-) My point was that the various screenshots in this thread may give a too positive impression about the predictive power. In reality when using the indicator for live trading (either manually or with an EA) we are always at the rightmost side...
predictive power? it's just an illusion, because forex trading is speculation,
so when you make a profit it's just luck
I'm just a gambler trying to improve my luck through strategy, no predictive power

I gamble with 100% balance today, if I get a margin call, I deposit again,
if I make a lot of profit I will WD take all the capital, and tomorrow trade only with today's and yesterday's profits
Quoting Darwati
I'm just a gambler trying to improve my luck through strategy, no predictive power I gamble with 100% balance today, if I get a margin call, I deposit again, if I make a lot of profit I will WD take all the capital, and tomorrow trade only with today's and yesterday's profits
LOL. You are a brave man!!
Quoting yoriz
{quote} LOL. You are a brave man!!
not brave, but because I don't know where the price will go In the end,
just follow the price wherever it goes,
my hopes depend on the indicators I use
look at the picture
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: XAUUSDM5.png Size: 50 KB
Quoting Darwati
{quote} predictive power? it's just an illusion, because forex trading is speculation, so when you make a profit it's just luck I'm just a gambler trying to improve my luck through strategy, no predictive power I gamble with 100% balance today, if I get a margin call, I deposit again, if I make a lot of profit I will WD take all the capital, and tomorrow trade only with today's and yesterday's profits
I understood what you are doing
but how many times in a row you got margin call and deposited all over again?
Quoting Merka
{quote} I understood what you are doing but how many times in a row you got margin call and deposited all over again?
That's the theory, because many people believe the account will explode
Yes, in fact, if the margin level is maintained above 2000-7000%, will there be a margin call?
while EA trading follows signals
Lots follow the settings in EA
EA is also monitored
unless during trading there is no trend at all, you might lose a lot but not get a margin call
or holding a lot of counter trend order positions
If you look at my previous picture, there are many close profit order options that I implemented in the EA
Hey this is not about my trading style thread

so back to TMA CG jblanked
Quoting yoriz
{quote} Indicators calculating their value at a certain bar can read the data right from the bar they are calculating. Here is a simple proof: open a chart, drop the standard Simple Moving Average indicator on it with these settings: {image} You will see that the indicator is able to use future data: {image} And that is exactly what the TMA-CG is doing. It is centering the moving averages which gives nice smooth curves. The TMA is actually two LWMAs centered around a bar. To mimic something similar with the SMA, you could shift the SMA with half...
You are having very serious issue with understanding the word "future".
There is no future data available, only past data.
If you shift your MA 50 bars back, the indicator is still reading past data, not future data.
Only the MA, or the picture of the MA, is shifted backwards!
Wooden Coder BestTraderEv (.ex4/.ex5 files cannot be fixed)
Quoting BestTraderEv
{quote} You are having very serious issue with understanding the word "future". There is no future data available, only past data. If you shift your MA 50 bars back, the indicator is still reading past data, not future data.
LOL. I believe the official term is "data snooping" or "lookahead bias" but not everybody here is a computer geek so I used "future". From the perspective of the indicator it is future data. When it is calculating the value of the MA on January 1st, it should not be using prices of January 2nd and January 3rd in its calculation. That is cheating. It is impossible to do that at the rightmost side of the chart where the live trading takes place.

Quoting BestTraderEv
Only the MA, or the picture of the MA, is shifted backwards!
Yes, that is how it looks visually, but the indicator is not drawing itself at a shifted position. The lines of the indicator are drawn exactly at the bar where it did the calculation. The indicator needs to provide data values at each bar on the chart and thus has to look ahead to provide this value to the MT5 platform.
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