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Anyone trading with a Prop firm 2 replies

prop firm new model - my trading journey 869 replies

So I accepted a Prop Trading job in South Beach Miami 43 replies

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Prop Firm Hub

Quoting Bizziebee
{quote} Mmm I think you are way out on that figure. Remember that the vast majority of challenges are failed so there is no refund and no bonus. They must be making a reasonable profit otherwise they could not stay in business. Anyway it would be great to know the real truth!
I have some hard data that basically proves I am correct but I can't share it with you so you can decide what you wish to think. There are only 2 firms making the numbers you are saying and its not from such high per account. You also forget the cost of operation and other than ftmo and mff, the costs of operation are massive due to the intermediaries taking huge chunks of their revenues. Also, the number I mentioned doesn't include outgoings, and I believe FTMO said that paid out 70 million last year and MFF paid out 140 million last year (both figures are self proclaimed so choose to believe or not).

https://myforexfunds.com/myforexfund...ry-statistics/

MFF stats are now way better than they were in the past btw.

I also will write the disclaimer: Just because a company makes money, doesn't excuse traders poor trading ability. If its not a prop firm making that money, its a broker. Pick your poison.
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}{quote}-I think, it may depend on whether or not the liquidity that the prop is using is actually real. I mean, is the trading real? If the trading can be simulated, then probably, other things can also be simulated. But, I know very little about this topic, so maybe these are very stupid things to say.
Thank you, but wasnt so worried about liquidity on this wise; what concerned me has been patched over by the US for a little while..
The new challenges from TFT are in a Live 8cap server (EightCapEU-Live).

Pretty confusing for those that also have a live account, although the live accounts are in a different Live server.

It's easy to make a mistake.
Quoting Takisd
{quote} I have some hard data that basically proves I am correct but I can't share it with you so you can decide what you wish to think. There are only 2 firms making the numbers you are saying and its not from such high per account. You also forget the cost of operation and other than ftmo and mff, the costs of operation are massive due to the intermediaries taking huge chunks of their revenues. Also, the number I mentioned doesn't include outgoings, and I believe FTMO said that paid out 70 million last year and MFF paid out 140 million last year...
Mate, you need to share this "hard data" otherwise in my view you are talking the biggest load of nonsense. Are you seriously trying to tell us that these guys are working at a loss? Are you living in the real world? In most of your posts, many of which are quite caustic, you make all sorts of statements and you make yourself out to be the world's leading authority on Prop firms and just about everything else These companies are not charities

If you READ the stats you will see that the actual number of people that actually ever receive a payout is negligable. If you look at the number of people taking numerous challenges and failing numerous challenges, their income is huge. That is how they are able to make those occasional big payouts. And of course they are more then likely copy trading the best traders. Why wouldn't they?

I am not going to argue with you anymore about this. You have your views and I have mine. Until you back up yours with HARD FACTS then don't bother to reply
Quoting Bizziebee
{quote}And of course they are more then likely copy trading the best traders. Why wouldn't they?
and trading against everyone else who are most likely to lose
Even a broken clock is right twice a day
Quoting Bizziebee
{quote} Mate, you need to share this "hard data" otherwise in my view you are talking the biggest load of nonsense. Are you seriously trying to tell us that these guys are working at a loss? Are you living in the real world? In most of your posts, many of which are quite caustic, you make all sorts of statements and you make yourself out to be the world's leading authority on Prop firms and just about everything else These companies are not charities If you READ the stats you will see that the actual number of people that actually ever receive...
I told you they are operating at $80 per account. Not 500. 500 would be as if every single trader had a 100k account at the cheaper prop firms. I tell you what, I will share my hard data, if you share yours. Oh thats right, you don't have any.

Both MFF and TFTP have stated clearly that the "best traders" don't win in the long run so you need to operate a dealing strategy not a "I will copy you oh wise sensei" strategy. If you assume you take 1 month to decide if someone is a "Best trader" with 1 month still being very little behavioral data, and you consider at 1 month you are paying out 80% (on average across firms) and only receive 20%. That one single month, if the "Best traders" are reasonably profitable, at least profitable enough for you to go HEY HEY Stop ruining my b book, sets you back 8 months and based on what both the above mentioned have told us, means you will never be profitable on that trader if you send them straight to market. This calculation doesn't even include costs that come with having an STP line such as omnibus fees, minimum execution fees, bridge fees, server costs and etc.

They don't make $500 per account, and any reasonable human being with a gnats IQ can figure that out. Hell, the 8cap prop firms pay $15 per active user just to be on the demo accounts so even if everyone had only $500, they still don't make $500 per account.

But thats ok, you continue to delude yourself with defeatism.

A little tidbit for you, a dealing brokerage makes $1500 per account on average, OH THE HUMANITY.
Quoting Takisd
{quote} I told you they are operating at $80 per account. Not 500. 500 would be as if every single trader had a 100k account at the cheaper prop firms. I tell you what, I will share my hard data, if you share yours. Oh thats right, you don't have any. Both MFF and TFTP have stated clearly that the "best traders" don't win in the long run so you need to operate a dealing strategy not a "I will copy you oh wise sensei" strategy. If you assume you take 1 month to decide if someone is a "Best trader" with 1 month still being very little behavioral data,...
I don't need to give any facts. The facts speak for themselves. You are telling us that these guys are not making any money. You are delusional not me. In fact most of your long and rambling posts make no sense at all. Perhaps they do to you. Poor chap!

If they are doing so badly then they would not stay in business. So I don't need to prove anything. This is my final word on this subject.
Quoting Bizziebee
{quote} I don't need to give any facts. The facts speak for themselves. You are telling us that these guys are not making any money. You are delusional not me. In fact most of your long and rambling posts make no sense at all. Perhaps they do to you. Poor chap! If they are doing so badly then they would not stay in business. So I don't need to prove anything. This is my final word on this subject.
If I read correctly Takisd says they make $80 per account. it does not mean they are not making any money, just not as much as if they were making $500. To me, $80 per account on average looks much more realistic than $500 anyway. And it might be still enough to survive a couple of month with their initial investment money until their business starts up and brings more customers in.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day
I see a nice short on XAGUSD right now, take a look to charts.

Also XAUDUSD could go down here. And also BTCUSD.

Finally I'm a swinger, is going well, trying to work to limit my activity and focus on max 5-10 trades a week, if there are opportunities.

I believe a lot in a retracement now of XAGUSD, Silver

https://www.mql5.com/en/signals/1890...ite+Signals+My. here my signal and the trades I have

risk balance 0.5% for this bet.
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  1. The pass rate for phase 1 across all evaluations was 19.05%
  2. The pass rate for phase 2 across all evaluations was 42.18%

So from MyFF statistics. It is more or less 90% failures..
I am wondering there is talk of fees here but if Prop firm reverse every trade on EVAL with drawdown equal to fees something like STP broker they make hell lot of money?

90% seems to be in line with the success rate of traders in general. Makes sense.

Edit: Being that 90% fail, if it wasn't obvious. lol
Take the easy ones, and don't do anything stupid in the meantime.
Quoting Vitore
Quoting Bizziebee
You are telling us that these guys are not making any money.
If I read correctly Takisd says they make $80 per account. it does not mean they are not making any money, just not as much as if they were making $500.
-Yes. I think Takisd is just trying to clarify matters by providing more realistic figures based on what he personally knows but cannot disclose.

If we assume that $80 net average is a correct approximation, per account, then that is still very significant. Based on MFF's latest stats, they currently have 37k active-live funded accounts. We can probably assume that the new monthly signup numbers are greater than this number, but even if we do not assume this, and we just use the same 37k number as an estimate, then that is still nearly 3 million in profit, per month.

The important numbers to know would be net profit vs operational/overhead costs, because that would give us greater insight into the overall health and longevity of the company. Unless they outsource to on-call part-timers, then employee wages would constitute a fixed cost that will remain the same, regardless of profit or new signups, unfortunately. However, operational costs-per-account may adjust accordingly, based on how many accounts there are, so that may not be an issue... I'm not sure.

In other words, if the client base was halved overnight, what kind of impact would it have, and would the business still be sustainable? That is the kind of thing that should be looked at. Profit looks nice on paper, but if your margins are not good (e.g. you are paying out 900k to make 1million - so 100k profit), then that may be terrible, especially if your operational costs are fixed and do not adjust with profit etc..

So, the questions for me would be, what do their profit margins look like and what percentage of their operational costs are fixed? Knowing this would give us more meaningful insight.
Quoting forexbali
{quote} Interesting! Understood! I will think if I remember some of them!
Any luck on the fx spot prop firms?
Quoting sampat
The pass rate for phase 1 across all evaluations was 19.05% The pass rate for phase 2 across all evaluations was 42.18% So from MyFF statistics. It is more or less 90% failures.. I am wondering there is talk of fees here but if Prop firm reverse every trade on EVAL with drawdown equal to fees something like STP broker they make hell lot of money?
Careful with the "new" MFF numbers. The devil lies in the details. They now give the pass rate for all kind of evaluations, including much easier ones, like evaluations without time limit or without profit target... The pass rate for the regular challenge model is way lower than that, as they published in the past.
Quoting hfarooqui48
{quote} Any luck on the fx spot prop firms?
All the prop firm are charging swaps against someone religion.

But I remember that I read somewhere something! I will look it right now.

However have you tried to contact each top firm and ask if they can remove the swaps so it won't be a problem "swap free" will be not against your religion?

Edit: FTMO and MFF offer swap free accounts, would be this sufficient?

if yes, I will create a column in my spreadsheet with swap free props

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
Hard day, what do you see on the markets?

bearish indexes, strong gold and silver, Bitcoin still hold. I see mispricing here.

Do you see any opportunity on some asset? I think we have to wait big data that will make more clear a view.

No sense that are buying heavily Silver to "protect from volatility", Silver crash with so heavy bearish markets, so I will focus on shorts on Silver and Bitcoin if equities will go lower at some point BTC/SILVER will lose momentum. But Silver most important. On the other hand we could have some buy opportunity if equiities will deep more... everything can happen, we are all in the banking crisis
Quoting forexbali
{quote} All the prop firm are charging swaps against someone religion. But I remember that I read somewhere something! I will look it right now. However have you tried to contact each top firm and ask if they can remove the swaps so it won't be a problem "swap free" will be not against your religion? Edit: FTMO and MFF offer swap free accounts, would be this sufficient? if yes, I will create a column in my spreadsheet with swap free props https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing...
I am not worried about swaps I can work around that but I am specifically looking to trade spot Fx and not CFD. As I explained earlier it is a matter of having an actual exchange of currency which is what I am looking for which does not occur with CFDs.
Quoting Vitore
{quote} If I read correctly Takisd says they make $80 per account. it does not mean they are not making any money, just not as much as if they were making $500. To me, $80 per account on average looks much more realistic than $500 anyway. And it might be still enough to survive a couple of month with their initial investment money until their business starts up and brings more customers in.
Its amazing how many people are defending this guy.

I really don't know how this became such an issue. I did not say that they are making $500 per person. Who knows what the real figure is? With the larger firms its probably a lot higher due to the sheer number of customers - some who retake challenges many times. On Youtube one guy took and failed 25 challenges already and I'm sure he is not unique. That is what people on this thread fail to understand - all are thinking only 1 failed challenge per person!
Hey guys, what's the point of how much props earn? lol Our goal is pass the challenge, get our fee back and earn as much as we can. That's all. Sure there's no point to trying to scale in unstable props, but who the hell is trustworthy these days? SVB maybe? XD

I was removed from the top two props on my list after the Russia-Ukraine thing, and any of us can simply be banned without any explanation, these are the rules of the game. I mean, I don't care what happens to the props backdoor, I will choose a company based on reviews and payouts + trading conditions, that's all. Ponzi scheme? If they pay, then I'm in. I'm sure many of them (or even all of them) started with some kind of Ponzi scheme, and if they couldn't start a honest business with a bag of money from new clients, then their traders would get a big ass, like my favorite Jessica's with her funding talent. so what? Nothing lol

Btw passed the 5ers challenge. They are ok in my opinion, trading conditions are not the best but ok. Waiting for confirmation of funding after the system counts 3 profitable days.
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For some reason my prop firm mt5 is showing delayed candles but seems the server gives correct fills. It's like trading the future without seeing where price is. It's as if the mt5 screen is frozen but only moving slowly compared to my mt4 private account. Anyone come across similar nonsense with prop firms?
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