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  • #1,241
  • Nov 16, 2022 8:00am Nov 16, 2022 8:00am
Quoting RickM
{quote} Hi ffpriceactio Interesting handle name. No - the deltacluster data you see is bridged directly from CME, and is therefore the same data I see on my Motive Wave, Ninja & jigsaw platforms. Of course the cluster indy's are a bit crude, very basic but it's still the cheapest way in to get access to level 2 data. For $8 a month, we shouldn't complain. The rest of your post I really liked, I agree that being able to profit from momentum by reading the volume correctly should be our main game. An example last night was a nice trade I took on E...
Yes of course i mixed few tools in one paragraph, not being precise. I understand Cluster gets different data still i am not sure if fx volume data really matters (speaking only about fx here).

What you described - this momentum jump - i can't do that. I prefer more like - (1) recognize the extremum position of price (overbough oversold, however not based on indicators), (2) observe some little momentum dominance in delta/price OR some kind of absorption (divergence ofdelta/price). What happens often i enter exactly at the "orderblock" formation, and price revisit this place with different outcome.

What i intend to learn from you in this thread is to learn simple routines with orderbook.
  • #1,242
  • Nov 16, 2022 8:36am Nov 16, 2022 8:36am
Quoting ffpriceactio
{quote} Yes of course i mixed few tools in one paragraph, not being precise. I understand Cluster gets different data still i am not sure if fx volume data really matters (speaking only about fx here). What you described - this momentum jump - i can't do that. I prefer more like - (1) recognize the extremum position of price (overbough oversold, however not based on indicators), (2) observe some little momentum dominance in delta/price OR some kind of absorption (divergence ofdelta/price). What happens often i enter exactly at the "orderblock" formation,...
Hi ffp.........io

How did you come up with that name?

Your description of your trading is sort of where I was a few years ago, it does work well mostly but I found it wasteful.
I found it wasteful because I took many trades that looked good on a chart and delta / volume gave signals but sometimes they were shit if you looked at the orderbooks. I use to think best trades were always extreme moves / exhaustion of either Bids & Asks before price collapsed and then just taking the simple reversal trade for a nice win - but thats amateur trading at its finest -

The Market Orders that flow through the order books paints another picture, it shows us pressure of either upticks or downticks on a chart. This allows us to see the Algo's trading the spreads on a chart by altering liquidity around 0.25 of a second before trade execution - causing momentum in itself.

Why is that an advantage in trading?

We can see whether the Auction is complete or imcomplete - which forms a chain of 0's on the register which mean alot if price hestitates with indecision.

Man, I'm thinking this stuff I am writing sounds like shit - but you just need to study a DOM for 1 hour a day for three months.
Then I would ask you three questions, and perhaps you wouldn't stop talking for a hour.


Did you ever see the Karate Kid movie.
You need to know how to paint, you will fuckin laugh when you know why.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
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Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
  • #1,243
  • Nov 16, 2022 9:01am Nov 16, 2022 9:01am
Quoting RickM
The Market Orders that flow through the order books paints another picture, it shows us pressure of either upticks or downticks on a chart. This allows us to see the Algo's trading the spreads on a chart by altering liquidity around 0.25 of a second before trade execution - causing momentum in itself.
Absolutely agree.

ffpriceactio, I must add that it is impossible to show how it works using pictures (screenshots). It is possible to show only using video record. Because formed candle literally shows nothing. It is already the past. And you don't see what fight was inside it. Also as for myself I see that candles itself are pretty useless. And the "agreement" called timeframe exist only in our imagination. It doesn't exist in real time. Whale don't care about candle. It care about liquidity.

Think about that all and look at it all from another angle: why price moves? Because someone hit market buy or sell. Why it jumps/dumps? Because stops are triggered and they fill limit orders (removing liquidity) from the orderbook.

So the imbalance or trades vs limit orders filled called delta. When there are much more buys vs sells and vice versa. And this information trigger us to jump into the trade. Because the vacuum will be filled sooner or later.
Observer effect
  • #1,244
  • Nov 16, 2022 1:22pm Nov 16, 2022 1:22pm
Call me ff.
  • #1,245
  • Nov 16, 2022 1:27pm Nov 16, 2022 1:27pm
Quoting RickM
{quote} Your description of your trading is sort of where I was a few years ago, it does work well mostly but I found it wasteful. I found it wasteful because I took many trades that looked good on a chart and delta / volume gave signals but sometimes they were shit if you looked at the orderbooks. I use to think best trades were always extreme moves / exhaustion of either Bids & Asks before price collapsed and then just taking the simple reversal trade for a nice win - but thats amateur trading at its finest - {image}
I feel neet to add sth. This routine includes taking few orders each on different level in the wider zone, with multi takeprofit. I made it my routine when i found out that is what @ft71 (convergent trading) does. Also - it is done in pullback, not - end of trend. From another perspective it may be called trend following more like trend reversal.
  • #1,246
  • Nov 16, 2022 1:30pm Nov 16, 2022 1:30pm
Quoting ryuryu
{kute}
It is already the past. ... Also as for myself I see that candles itself are pretty useless. And the "agreement" called timeframe exist only in our imagination.
100% TRUE.
  • #1,247
  • Nov 16, 2022 1:37pm Nov 16, 2022 1:37pm
Thank you guys for your time - will not be wasted, i promise.
I understand what you say about orderbook interaction. It changed my perspective when i started to consider liquidity. Also i have made intensive research / deliberately practice with fooptrint charts.
I would like to start with some real-volume assets with some pocket money. Could you suggest anything like - asset, platform, data provider ?
  • #1,248
  • Nov 16, 2022 8:15pm Nov 16, 2022 8:15pm
Quoting ffpriceactio
Thank you guys for your time - will not be wasted, i promise. I understand what you say about orderbook interaction. It changed my perspective when i started to consider liquidity. Also i have made intensive research / deliberately practice with fooptrint charts. I would like to start with some real-volume assets with some pocket money. Could you suggest anything like - asset, platform, data provider ?
Trading volume is a very personal endeavour so what works for me may not be your coffee and cake.
However as I work with a large group of order flow volume traders, the feedback I get shows there is a clear winner for platforms usage and data.

75% of successful Order Flow traders use Sierra Charts and its Denali data feed.
75% of successful Order Flow traders working the DOM use Jigsaw with a popular data feed coming from CME.

Some use both.

Me?

Sierra Charts frustrates me because it takes two years to work out it’s bloody money management systems and it’s designed in the bronze age.

I use Motive Wave, Quantower for charting but trade on Jigsaw only.

For Crypto, Quantower is great if using data from Bybit.

Lastly, Crypto trading is totally free if you trade on a brokers platform- it can work

Cheers
Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
  • #1,249
  • Nov 16, 2022 10:57pm Nov 16, 2022 10:57pm
Quoting RickM
{quote} Trading volume is a very personal endeavour so what works for me may not be your coffee and cake. However as I work with a large group of order flow volume traders, the feedback I get shows there is a clear winner for platforms usage and data. 75% of successful Order Flow traders use Sierra Charts and its Denali data feed. 75% of successful Order Flow traders working the DOM use Jigsaw with a popular data feed coming from CME. Some use both. Me? Sierra Charts frustrates me because it takes two years to work out it’s bloody money management...
Great! I remember telling you about Jigsaw around 2 years ago. I'm glad you liked it Rick =]

Do you continue using AMP Futures? Is it cheaper than Tradovate or Zytrade (they include MotiveWave).

Btw, now I know from a crypto insider, from good sources, that Binance's volume is indeed "masked"; just about what Ryan and you long ago discovered by analyzing its order flow
  • #1,250
  • Nov 17, 2022 1:24am Nov 17, 2022 1:24am
RickM, thank you. Do you have experience with Bookmap ?
  • #1,251
  • Nov 17, 2022 2:12am Nov 17, 2022 2:12am
Quoting ryuryu
Because formed candle literally shows nothing. It is already the past.
There are plenty of quant firms where people who are way smarter than me play around with genetic models and AI and hell knows what else to squeeze water from the stone, so I feel pretty comfortable to skip all the 16th century stuff and the 1001 ways to draw squiggly lines on a chart.

I did some reading (ok, mainly just "Trading and Exchanges") and I think I have a basic working knowledge of market mechanics now. I understand market orders, limit orders, stop orders that can turn into either of them, why price moves, liquidity, spoofing, stuff like that. I'm still a bit hazy on some concepts like the auction model - still thinking of ebay when I hear auction. But this is like learning basic strategy in Blackjack, knowing it doesn't mean you can win, it's the minimum you need to know to have half a chance not to get slaughtered.

Quoting RickM
but you just need to study a DOM for 1 hour a day for three months.
I'm staring at a screen all day long anyway, so I tried that (well, not for 3 month obv, but for a few hours). Saw some turning points on high volume + high delta, observed the DOM while it happened, but no lightbulb moment so far. Maybe I can't see the unicorn because I've never seen one before and don't know how it looks like?

What ryuryu wrote:
Quoting ryuryu
So the imbalance or trades vs limit orders filled called delta. When there are much more buys vs sells and vice versa. And this information trigger us to jump into the trade. Because the vacuum will be filled sooner or later.
I don't get that. What I think I understand: Say price is at 100 with the usual distribution of asks above and bids below and stops on both sides. A ton of market buys hit (for whatever reason), a few asks are filled, a few stops are triggered and accelerate the move and market orders and stops together cause a cascade all the way up to 110. There's the vacuum, right? No more orders between 100 and 110, at least for a moment? What I observe now is usually that new bids simply pop up in this space. New equilibrium, vacuum is filled, volume drops back down, show is over. What am or was I supposed to do with that? Or is my description / understanding wrong?
  • #1,252
  • Nov 17, 2022 5:03am Nov 17, 2022 5:03am
Quoting ffpriceactio
RickM, thank you. Do you have experience with Bookmap ?
I have never trialled it but apparently it gives the best visualization of a heatmap. A buddy last year told me he believes its a great way to start the orderflow game because the Dom runs up or down and is impossible to understand for new order flow traders. Bookmap however shows good historical orderflow in all timeframes so its easy to review past action.

Bookmap also runs on a MacBook like Motive Wave which may interest some traders
Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
  • #1,253
  • Nov 17, 2022 5:23am Nov 17, 2022 5:23am
Quoting RickM
{quote} I have never trialled it but apparently it gives the best visualization of a heatmap.
To my suprise futurestrader71 once said that DOM is useless (meaning - for "average joe" as he basically started with DOM) and it is better now to use tools like Bookmap. Which he uses himself. It is like footprint chart, but in different perspective i suppose.

Do you know of some online price scanners, a kind of set of charts where you can instantly see momentum in price , big candles ? I see you live in Australia, have you heard about Bryce Gilmore ?
  • #1,254
  • Nov 17, 2022 5:36am Nov 17, 2022 5:36am
Quoting Viktor
{quote} Great! I remember telling you about Jigsaw around 2 years ago. I'm glad you liked it Rick =] Do you continue using AMP Futures? Is it cheaper than Tradovate or Zytrade (they include MotiveWave). Btw, now I know from a crypto insider, from good sources, that Binance's volume is indeed "masked"; just about what Ryan and you long ago discovered by analyzing its order flow
Hi Viktor

I looked at Jigsaw about 7 years ago and thought "How the hell do you trade this shit". But after using Motive wave for a while, I realised the DOM held some hidden secrets I had missed before so I jumped on the Bucking horse for an new exciting ride.

Yes, AMP Futures provides a cheap service that never fails the trader even during major Red news events. In two years, never lost a feed or had a market blackout ever.
Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
  • #1,255
  • Nov 17, 2022 7:08am Nov 17, 2022 7:08am
Quoting ffpriceactio
{quote} To my suprise futurestrader71 once said that DOM is useless (meaning - for "average joe" as he basically started with DOM) and it is better now to use tools like Bookmap. Which he uses himself. It is like footprint chart, but in different perspective i suppose. Do you know of some online price scanners, a kind of set of charts where you can instantly see momentum in price , big candles ? I see you live in Australia, have you heard about Bryce Gilmore ?
The DOM is also a footprint in the middle columns, AND it also allows us to see sproofing, iceberg orders, complete auctions, uptick / downtick rejection, momemtum in real time, spread manipulation and has important stuff added like volume profile and VWAP.

But almost every Order Flow trader I have talked to has visual charts as well as a DOM which is why Sierra Charts is the best fit overall.

As for Futuretrader71 saying the DOM is useless - I think many of the top trading firms based in London would probably disagree with his opinion.
As for Bryce Gilmore - Sorry I normally avoid following other traders to avoid being drawn down another dead end street. His work may be good?
Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
  • #1,256
  • Nov 17, 2022 9:52am Nov 17, 2022 9:52am
Quoting FatO
so I feel pretty comfortable to skip all the 16th century stuff and the 1001 ways to draw squiggly lines on a chart.
haha great "16th century stuff and the 1001 ways to draw squiggly lines on a chart" - to the memories


Quoting FatO
What ryuryu wrote: I don't get that. What I think I understand: Say price is at 100 with the usual distribution of asks above and bids below and stops on both sides. A ton of market buys hit (for whatever reason), a few asks are filled, a few stops are triggered and accelerate the move and market orders and stops together cause a cascade all the way up to 110. There's the vacuum, right? No more orders between 100 and 110, at least for a moment? What I observe now is usually that new bids simply pop up in this space. New equilibrium, vacuum is filled,...
I think you get it right. You have described how market works.
So let's take a look what happened?
Price was 100, big player hit the button, remove all the limit orders, trigger stops, push the price higher. Why? Because it is cheap.
If you want to jump +1% then you have to buy 1000$, but in fact not. You can buy only 500$ and the rest will be for free for you, because someone stops will do all the job.

Regarding the question what to do with that? I prefer start to trade when the pain already gone. Because the whale will do the same - it will start to close the positions.
RickM prefer to jump-in with the whale. And so on. I do it too sometimes but I'm not that fast haha
Observer effect
  • #1,257
  • Nov 17, 2022 3:17pm Nov 17, 2022 3:17pm
Quoting RickM
{quote} As for Futuretrader71 saying the DOM is useless - I think many of the top trading firms based in London would probably disagree with his opinion.
He was talking to "new kids".

Quoting RickM
{quote} As for Bryce Gilmore - Sorry I normally avoid following other traders to avoid being drawn down another dead end street. His work may be good?
I have read/scanned a lot of other traders in search for some specific issues. Gilmore produced a lot of info on geemetry which i find useless for me. This part i skipped. However i find his observations on measured move (1:1 for trend) best i have seen, and overbalancing rule (1:1 for pullback) - very informative. Overbalancing rule means a trend change - based on the fact that each degree of trend ("timeframe" in terms of popular perception of degrees) has pullback dimension specific to it. FT71 calls it "harmonic rotation". We know it all comes down to "typical move" of last legs. Never found a better "framework" to describe trend.
  • #1,258
  • Nov 17, 2022 3:30pm Nov 17, 2022 3:30pm
Quoting ryuryu
{quote} I prefer start to trade when the pain already gone. Because the whale will do the same - it will start to close the positions. RickM prefer to jump-in with the whale. And so on. I do it too sometimes but I'm not that fast haha
Please correct me if i am wrong.

You get in pullback, right ? If so you also have some trigger. Apart from trigger do you recognize some kind of zone (like orderblock, high volume area where momentum jump originated from), and in that zone you observe if trigger comes ?
  • #1,259
  • Nov 17, 2022 7:03pm Nov 17, 2022 7:03pm
funher stuu i misss your shitters chnagers all muther gather, Rickand Ryan Fullle dyuing lve
  • #1,260
  • Nov 17, 2022 7:06pm Nov 17, 2022 7:06pm
Guys i ca post some chart with overbalance rule here, let me know if you want. I am curious of your observations. My was: "random walk my ass".
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