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  • #11,521
  • Oct 12, 2022 7:32am Oct 12, 2022 7:32am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}If your primary goal is to make as much money as quickly as possible, then by all means, trade on a personal account and do not 'waste your time' on prop.
You did not get my point I was explaining with all the math & examples. But I am tired of repeating myself. Maybe you must number crunch yourself. Sorry to say that.
  • #11,522
  • Oct 12, 2022 7:47am Oct 12, 2022 7:47am
Quoting TrAndy1
You did not get my point I was explaining with all the math & examples. But I am tired of repeating myself. Maybe you must number crunch yourself. Sorry to say that.
-Look, no one trades perfectly, 100% of the time. You could have a 90% win-rate and still have 10 losses in an row and blow your account, because we do not get to choose when we lose.

Your point is flawed because even if you can earn more quickly on a personal account as a great trader, you can also lose more quickly and even lose it all much more easily.

I am not contesting your theory as being true, I am contesting it as being wise. When you run the numbers from a probability standpoint, and not solely from a fairytale perspective, then the logic may seem more reasonable to you.
  • #11,523
  • Oct 12, 2022 7:52am Oct 12, 2022 7:52am
Something tells me we will see Andy with the commercial member stamp in the near future.
  • #11,524
  • Oct 12, 2022 7:53am Oct 12, 2022 7:53am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}I am not contesting your theory as being true, I am contesting it as being wise. When you run the numbers from a probability standpoint, and not solely from a fairytale perspective, then the logic may seem more reasonable to you.
No you do not understand. This is like the same one should take an offer from a prop with score less than 1. It does not make sense as you can do more on a personal account. The math works in both directions. So if you say you should risk less with prop firms, on a certain point you could even risk much less on a personal account. So why then taking the prop firm challenge at all ? There is a trade-off, I can repeat it again, just make sure you understood my examples right. But you haven't. Sorry.
  • #11,525
  • Oct 12, 2022 7:58am Oct 12, 2022 7:58am
Quoting Takisd
Something tells me we will see Andy with the commercial member stamp in the near future.
Why the hell ? I do not intend to offer anything. You are offending me. "Something tells you", so do you hear voices in your head ? Do you have paranoia or what ?
  • #11,526
  • Oct 12, 2022 8:01am Oct 12, 2022 8:01am
Quoting TrAndy1
So if you say you should risk less with prop firms, on a certain point you could even risk much less on a personal account. So why then taking the prop firm challenge at all ?
-You can risk more or you can risk less with both approaches. But with prop, you have 12K to work with after flipping the $500 investment. On a personal, you have 1K to work with after flipping the $500 investment. So, your argument is what, exactly? Time-to-goal?
  • #11,527
  • Oct 12, 2022 8:11am Oct 12, 2022 8:11am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-You can risk more or you can risk less with both approaches. But with prop, you have 12K to work with after flipping the $500 investment. On a personal, you have 1K to work with after flipping the $500 investment. So, your argument is what, exactly? Time-to-goal?
Sorry, it gets stupid here. I am not your school teacher in math. If you cannot replicate my simple examples that is your problem. As I said you did not get the point.
  • #11,528
  • Oct 12, 2022 8:20am Oct 12, 2022 8:20am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-You can risk more or you can risk less with both approaches. But with prop, you have 12K to work with after flipping the $500 investment. On a personal, you have 1K to work with after flipping the $500 investment. So, your argument is what, exactly? Time-to-goal?
Yes, 24X the investment or 7.6 after factoring it the targets you hit in phase 1 and 2 and the 80% split. Make 10% your first month and you receive $8500 ($8K +$500 fee refund) and you still have 12K to trade the following month. You would need to flip the personal account 4 times in THAT SAME PERIOD (as opposed to 2 with the prop) to get to 8K. However, if you withdrawal it, you start from scratch, you don't have 12K to begin the next month. You would need to flip the personal account 6.5 times (again, opposed to twice with the prop) to be able to pull 8K out AND still have 12K to begin the following month.
Bottom line if you THINK you can flip a personal account 6.5 times in the same time you can flip the prop 2 times.......then yes GO FOR IT.
Me, no thanks. I'll take the prop route
  • #11,529
  • Oct 12, 2022 8:22am Oct 12, 2022 8:22am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Yes, 24X the investment or 7.6 after factoring it the targets you hit in phase 1 and 2 and the 80% split. Make 10% your first month and you receive $8500 ($8K +$500 fee refund) and you still have 12K to trade the following month. You would need to flip the personal account 4 times in THAT SAME PERIOD (as opposed to 2 with the prop) to get to 8K. However, if you withdrawal it, you start from scratch, you don't have 12K to begin the next month. You would need to flip the personal account 6.5 times (again, opposed to twice with the prop) to...
Is my math pretty close TrAndy?
Now, if you don't pull from the personal account the first month, but wait an extra 30 days and hit the same targets, now it is a completely different ball game, correct?
  • #11,530
  • Oct 12, 2022 8:23am Oct 12, 2022 8:23am
Quoting TrAndy1
As I said you did not get the point.
-Yes. I am still wondering what your point is.

108% return via prop to turn $500 into 12K balance (and you get the $500 refunded, so it is repeatable).
vs.
2,400% return via personal to turn $500 into 12K balance.

If your point is that you can reach higher targets faster on a personal because there is no down-time, then I would say good luck with that. Because if we use the simple example of a 12K target, then that means that you would need to flip your account 4.5 times during the time that the prop is not earning.

EDIT: pipmaster77 explained it better.
  • #11,531
  • Oct 12, 2022 8:38am Oct 12, 2022 8:38am
Quoting pipmaster77
now it is a completely different ball game, correct?
-Yes. This is all about risk and odds. I could risk $500 on powerball and blow you all out of the water in terms of time-to-goal and profitability, but the odds are so heavily stacked against me, that it struggles to compare with more practical approaches.

Again, not contesting the math, just contesting the wisdom.
  • #11,532
  • Oct 12, 2022 9:27am Oct 12, 2022 9:27am
Do not have the patience right now to go through all others examples. But I give you another simple hint, where you can calculate yourself the solution. Example here is FTMO. They offer for 100k challenge a fee of 540 €. Now you need to do 150% based on DD, that is e^(1.5)=4.486, so you have on your own compounding on your own personal account already 2422 €. So basically already 5-fold it based on what FTMO is asking, that is the truth, the pure math. Now if you repeat the same on your funded account, you have 10867 € on personal, while you get a 80% profit split on 15% at FTMO, which is 12k €. So you already see the difference is small. All you need to do is now to calculate the trade-off point, at which percentage of profits there is breakeven point between own compounding on personal account versus FTMO.
  • #11,533
  • Oct 12, 2022 9:31am Oct 12, 2022 9:31am
And do not forget these are riskadjusted returns based on max. Drawdowns. So it is not all about profits only, as one could also reduces risks on own personal account. The only thing what matters here is the breakeven point, at what percentage of (riskadjusted) profit it makes more sense to do this kind of trading on personal account.
  • #11,534
  • Oct 12, 2022 10:07am Oct 12, 2022 10:07am
To make the prop firm offers (on challenges) more clear everyone must understand there is trade-off between meeting the goals and not meeting the goals. If you can meet the goals everytime then there is only a small step that it is not worth to consider prop's challenges. And when you do not or cannot meet the goals based on your strategy, then you should not participate too on prop firms challenges. The trade-off breakeven point is just the reciproke of ones score. So if FTMO has a score of 3.2 it means whenever your chances are (ex ante) based on your strategy and statistics here are less than 1/3.2=31.25% then you should not take those challenges as you only can burn more money than trading on your own personal account instead and do you own compounding here. So the difference is not so big as it seems mathe-matically between choosing the prop firm challenge or personal account. Of course it varies on different offers of prop firms, as MFF is the best one actually on score. So if your experience is that you fail more than twice each team before you get funded on FTMO then this offer does not make sense for you. At MFF you need only ~14% passing rate. So if you need to try more than 7 times each before you can get funded at MFF, then you should reconsider your chances based on your strategy again.
  • #11,535
  • Oct 12, 2022 10:17am Oct 12, 2022 10:17am
To make it even easier to understand the score expresses also the number of attempts you have on such challenges. If you fail more than 3 times on FTMO (usually or based on your strategy ex-ante chances) and then you should not consider their offer. On MFF their score is about 7, so you can try it 7 seven times until you can profit from them. If you cannot do it on those 7 times (in average) then the prop firm thing is not for you. It is only based on numbers and has nothing to do with my opinion.
  • #11,536
  • Oct 12, 2022 10:19am Oct 12, 2022 10:19am
And as I said just before some previous posts there is also an upper limit where it does make or not make sense to join a prop firm challenge. I hope you calculate it yourself now what kind of percentage you 'need' or be able to produce until one owns compounding on your own personal accounts makes more sense than the props.
  • #11,537
  • Oct 12, 2022 10:30am Oct 12, 2022 10:30am
One must understand that basically all prop firms their challenges are asking for (a bit) more than 100% flip of your account size based on the allowance of max. Drawdown. So that means on Euler figure you already need to triple your account size before you can get some additional capital. Now that would sound too much terrifying, but it is like it is. The numbers cannot lie. We can only analyze their offers and I hope one can appreciate the efforts that I decipher their offers to 100%.
  • #11,538
  • Oct 12, 2022 11:13am Oct 12, 2022 11:13am
Quoting WhoopTrader
Hey, I thought everyone might be interested in this. Came across it today - video with the owner of Funded Trading Plus and a guy that runs the technology for a lot of prop firms on the future of the prop industry: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emW-UcDvH38&t p.s. sorry I don't know how to embed the video
I remember when Rob Booker (Forex marketeer extraordinaire) was pushing Mr. Hertzberg. I doubt he wants to be reminded of this though
  • #11,539
  • Oct 12, 2022 11:21am Oct 12, 2022 11:21am
Quoting TrAndy1
Anyone is able to search some background info on FCFF (First Class Forex Funds) prop firm ? As they have an interesting offer and look like to stay for longer or? Hmm..
Same offering as MFF but with EightCRAP as the broker.

Can't find any reviews on them and can't find any reason to use them. Why stray from an established firm like MFF that has the exact same offering, its own server, and a track record of payments?
Pride always comes before destruction.... -Proverbs 16:18
  • #11,540
  • Oct 12, 2022 11:54am Oct 12, 2022 11:54am
Quoting Expo33
{quote} Same offering as MFF but with EightCRAP as the broker. Can't find any reviews on them and can't find any reason to use them. Why stray from an established firm like MFF that has the exact same offering, its own server, and a track record of payments?
My thoughts exactly. While I understand the need for uncovering new firms, the ones offering the same exact thing offer no benefit to me. They are not going to encourage competition or put any pressure on the existing if they are offering the same thing. I have 5-6 that I can use which I know pay and I am nowhere near maxed out. Once I have 3 million with these firms, I'll take a look.
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