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  • #10,541
  • Aug 27, 2022 2:39pm Aug 27, 2022 2:39pm
Commercial member on FF = scammer p much. No one is selling a valuable service here. If their service was good they wouldn't be selling it as edge is hard to find.

Moving on.

FTMO is showing some stress signs but I dont think its really a problem for them long term. The market conditions certainly aren't helping them.
  • #10,542
  • Aug 27, 2022 4:07pm Aug 27, 2022 4:07pm
Quoting TrAndy1
then they also should built up enough capital from past challenge fees to cover payouts.
-In my opinion, all firms should have an emergency fund allocated for unforeseen events, that grows as the firm grows. Not doing so would be highly reckless and greedy. If these firms were heavily reliant on outside investors, then I guarantee that they would have something in place (unless their investors were morons).

However, I suspect that most of these firms quickly move beyond that stage of dependence, which can be both, a good thing and a bad thing. Good because it gives firms more freedom to operate, allowing those benefits to be passed on to traders in the form of more flexibility and profit-potential. Bad because you then have to trust that the firm knows what they are doing and can manage risk appropriately, such as the case with having an emergency fund or not.

Quoting pipmaster77
I truly think the answer FOR TRADERS AND FIRMS alike is much lower leverage.
-This is an interesting idea. Maybe it would work. I do think that even with lower leverage, you will still have many traders blowing up their accounts, but you could more-easily mitigate astronomical payouts, so it could work, in theory. This should be coupled with a good, margin-calculation plan as well.

There are other ways, but it may be difficult to find a solution that is not too one-sided, so adjustment to leverage seems like a reasonably-balanced approach. What's more, is that you would see other benefits with this approach as well, not just in the way of risk-mitigation.

The only thing to consider, then, would be competition. It may be more difficult to introduce such changes if/when your competition is still offering 100X or similar. This FOMO that firms might face could slow down progress. Interestingly, such changes could be what determines which firms survive and which firms do not. I could also see it helping newer firms grow since such changes would likely be necessary by bigger firms first, which could push a lot of people to these smaller firms. It is all interesting to think about.

At the end of the day, it will be survival of the fittest. The pioneering firms will lead the way for the other firms by showing them what works and what doesn't. Then, it is only a matter of duplication. Fortunately for us, these firms could fail tomorrow and then be operating next week under a new name, so the opportunity should always be there so long as 3rd-party involvement does not ruin the game. I think that this is an important consideration.
  • #10,543
  • Aug 27, 2022 10:37pm Aug 27, 2022 10:37pm
Swing traders with larger SLs scaling in @ 2-4% risk per day until they max out margin during an extremely cooperative daily trend can still go wild at FTMO. What goes up... comes down even faster! This kind of strategy during a 2008/2019 cliff diving bear move could be devastating for props.
  • #10,544
  • Aug 28, 2022 3:51am Aug 28, 2022 3:51am
Quoting TheFxLord
{quote} The sequence of events was 2 people accusing me of being gamblers, hence the post to ask them to review the log (which clearly showed growth slowing and a plan to manage risk). In the first place, the people who claimed I was subtle advertising are the ones who kept drawing attention and attacking my TE when I spoke nothing of it.
why did you revoke your account ?
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RedcaT 3003
25k Return This Week: na
  • #10,545
  • Aug 28, 2022 4:08am Aug 28, 2022 4:08am
Quoting redcat3003
{quote} why did you revoke your account ? {image}
To start over as someone else?
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #10,546
  • Aug 28, 2022 4:26am Aug 28, 2022 4:26am
Quoting Vitore
To start over as someone else?
-Yeah, maybe TheFxKramerLordFx or some other variation. The man that is so good that he doesn't need anything from anyone, yet, seems to desperately need something from everyone.
  • #10,547
  • Aug 28, 2022 12:54pm Aug 28, 2022 12:54pm
One more Kramer dig then I'll let it go.

Hi. I'm Kramer. Amazing trader.

Prop firm parameters are too hard for me but I guarantee I'll pass evaluations for you. Just hand over your cash to me.

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Pride always comes before destruction.... -Proverbs 16:18
  • #10,548
  • Aug 28, 2022 3:01pm Aug 28, 2022 3:01pm
Yes. I asked him publicly about that a few weeks ago. He said that he would get back to me over the weekend, but he must have meant a different weekend.
  • #10,549
  • Aug 28, 2022 5:06pm Aug 28, 2022 5:06pm
Scamster fxlord aka kramerfx will be back soon enough, and we will call him out again all the same. These types of characters cant stay away too long.
Truth is like poetry. And most people f*cking hate poetry.
  • #10,550
  • Edited 8:02pm Aug 28, 2022 6:30pm | Edited 8:02pm
Most these prop firms, actually all of them follow the same model. They need you to make 5 to 10% or something in that ballpark within a month or so. Then maybe a second round with reduced targets. If you make it, then they let you earn whatever at your own pace.
So, my question is, is there any other line of work or profession that demands something similar?
For example, are you expected to run a 100 meter dash and beat the timer before you can do a marathon? Do you have to sell out a stadium before you can do your travelling road show taking your show to small venues? Do you have to go to Mars before you go on the orbit around the Earth? You get the idea...

Can anyone come up with any example of max performance before average long term performance ?

What I don't want to hear is guys saying oh it is so easy to make 1% a day with 1:1 leverage or look at me, I pass every time in under 10 days bla bla bla because it is not the answer to my question.

I guess the premise of this required condition is that if you can make 10% in 30 days, you will surely be able to ratchet it down and make even 1% a year or whatever. Is that the right premise? Why not look for those slow steady traders to begin with?

Costs? They can't have people holding onto a demo account for months and months? I have demos up to 6 months old that have never cost me a penny. Does someone from their office need to sit and stare at every demo and they can't be paying them for months to do so? Everything is automated nowadays. They already don't sit and stare cause they have backend software that brings irregular stuff to their attention. Most of them operate out of virtual offices anyway.

So, in short, even their screening methods are not really designed to find the kind of trader they supposedly want. Chances are, the 'look at me, I made 10% in a day' folks are probably going to stay with their tempo and eventually blow their account cause they are obviously in a hurry and sure they can make that 10% quickly again. So finding frequent high flyers is basically the aim of this model. Everythung else is bs.
  • #10,551
  • Aug 28, 2022 9:49pm Aug 28, 2022 9:49pm
Quoting OutThere
Most these prop firms, actually all of them follow the same model. They need you to make 5 to 10% or something in that ballpark within a month or so. Then maybe a second round with reduced targets. If you make it, then they let you earn whatever at your own pace. So, my question is, is there any other line of work or profession that demands something similar? For example, are you expected to run a 100 meter dash and beat the timer before you can do a marathon? Do you have to sell out a stadium before you can do your travelling road show taking your...
IMHO a perfectly sensible analysis and point of view. No problem with your logic.
But perhaps its possible that the purpose of the exercise is a form of Stress Testing?
Warning: A Dangerous Subversive: 1% of comments CoCed
  • #10,552
  • Aug 28, 2022 10:31pm Aug 28, 2022 10:31pm
Quoting RossEdwards
{quote} IMHO a perfectly sensible analysis and point of view. No problem with your logic. But perhaps its possible that the purpose of the exercise is a form of Stress Testing?
Hi Ross
The market itself puts enough stress on a trader anyway. I don't think a formula of make 10%/30 days is really any kind of a logical stress test. For example, I ran a system last December. It did great for that month but the same thing failed in January. So, depending on the system/method of trading, if certain conditions are met, it could work during a given 30 day period and not work during next or any other period. Aside from that, the prop firm operators aren't known for their trading abilities let alone for having any sense of what a stress test is and how it should work.
  • #10,553
  • Edited Aug 29, 2022 2:56am Aug 28, 2022 10:59pm | Edited Aug 29, 2022 2:56am
Very few approach prop trading logically by dialing down the risk once live.

Almost everyone (including myself) is forced to over risk in phase 1 to pass. I always do 2% risk in phase 1 to get it over with as fast as possible. I have a successful system with a >3 Sortino ratio. However, If I used responsible risk in phase 1, maybe 2-3 months out of 12 would be good enough to pass. This required over risking leads to tons of evaluation flame outs and profits for the prop firm. The large 5-6 figure payout flexing and interviews by those that get lucky through 3 rounds of high risk trading (phase 1 + phase 2 + live) leads to social media FOMO and more failed evaluation profits... that's the virtuous cycle for the prop firms.

FTMO has just proven that props copy trading to the live market is a complete farce.
  • #10,554
  • Aug 28, 2022 11:03pm Aug 28, 2022 11:03pm
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  • #10,555
  • Aug 28, 2022 11:33pm Aug 28, 2022 11:33pm
Quoting OutThere
Most these prop firms, actually all of them follow the same model. They need you to make 5 to 10% or something in that ballpark within a month or so.
-Yes. In actuality, it is a lot more than that, unfortunately.

Quoting OutThere
Why not look for those slow steady traders to begin with?
-Because that is not as profitable. In order for this model to work, these firms need a high turnover rate. Until/unless these firms start actually looking to push trades to live market, then there is no need to look for really good traders. If they find enough of them, great, then maybe they will consider going legit. But I truly doubt it. It is too profitable to keep things as they are. Not only that, going full-legit might be a pain in some jurisdictions.

From a trader's perspective, the quicker account acquisition is preferable for most. Most traders do not want to have to trade on a demo account for 6 months to a year in order to prove themselves (or acquire special licensing etc.). The model makes sense. It may not be agreeable for everyone, but there is a place for it, I think. After all, there are traditional firms for those that are looking for that.
  • #10,556
  • Aug 28, 2022 11:59pm Aug 28, 2022 11:59pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Yes. In actuality, it is a lot more than that, unfortunately. {quote}-Because that is not as profitable. In order for this model to work, these firms need a high turnover rate. Until/unless these firms start actually looking to push trades to live market, then there is no need to look for really good traders. If they find enough of them, great, then maybe they will consider going legit. But I truly doubt it. It is too profitable to keep things as they are. Not only that, going full-legit might be a pain in some jurisdictions. From a trader's perspective, the quicker account acquisition is preferable for most. Most traders do not want to have to trade on a demo account for 6 months to a year in order to prove themselves (or acquire special licensing etc.). The model makes sense. It may not be agreeable for everyone, but there is a place for it, I think. After all, there are traditional firms for those that are looking for that.
Yes. In actuality, it is a lot more than that, unfortunately.
That clears up things a lot.
Because that is not as profitable.
I noticed.
these firms need a high turnover rate.
Insatiable appetite indeed
there is no need to look for really good traders.
Obviously.
Most traders do not want to have to trade on a demo account for 6 months to a year in order to prove themselves
When did they try that out?
there are traditional firms for those that are looking for that.
Which ones?
  • #10,557
  • Aug 29, 2022 2:22am Aug 29, 2022 2:22am
Outthere,

I like your comparisons but I feel like its going somewhere no trader should go, and that is entitlement. The prop firms themselves present the decision on whether you want to use them or not before you join them. So they don't owe anyone anything as non purchase is an option thus not being the monkey on a rope.

There have been many prop firms in the past, particularly in futures, where there was a 6 month trial period on sim with no upfront but a rigorous screencheck before even getting to sim with interviews and math exams, the turnover on that was even higher as the failure rate over 6 months is significantly higher than failure rate over 90 days. The problem with the human psych and retail prop firms is not the prop firms and what they are doing to the trader, its the trader and their grandeur dreams. If anyone has the ability to pass at these firms, they just need to pull back the risk when live and they should be able to end up getting their risk back, the rest is cream. But instead, you see everyone going all in on their live accounts losing them then making posts in discord servers about how prop firms are scams.

This is typical retail trader mentality, when you can't succeed you blame the broker. Its not the brokers fault.
  • #10,558
  • Aug 29, 2022 2:31am Aug 29, 2022 2:31am
Quoting OutThere
Most these prop firms, actually all of them follow the same model. They need you to make 5 to 10% or something in that ballpark within a month or so. Then maybe a second round with reduced targets. If you make it, then they let you earn whatever at your own pace. So, my question is, is there any other line of work or profession that demands something similar? For example, are you expected to run a 100 meter dash and beat the timer before you can do a marathon? Do you have to sell out a stadium before you can do your travelling road show taking your...
I think I could answer all of your questions, but I do not understand why do you ask those ? What is real purpose or intention to ask these questions ? Tell me more.
  • #10,559
  • Aug 29, 2022 3:19am Aug 29, 2022 3:19am
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} I think I could answer all of your questions, but I do not understand why do you ask those ? What is real purpose or intention to ask these questions ? Tell me more.
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No need to answer.
  • #10,560
  • Aug 29, 2022 3:19am Aug 29, 2022 3:19am
https://www.fundedtradingplus.com/

Hi.This prop has no time limits. I like the model - Advanced trader. Your thoughts gentlemen!?
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