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  • #10,521
  • Aug 27, 2022 1:23am Aug 27, 2022 1:23am
Quoting TheFxLord
{quote} Let's make it fun. If this account is still around and well on Christmas (a little under 160 trading days), what happens?
You are not going to convince people by your log.

All your log can be PS .

To convince people you will need to set up your record at collective2.
Also 18 days record, even if it is true, is too short to prove anything. You will need 360 days at least.
Assuming you can consistently make such performance,
you will be the richest person in the world in a year. Why would you ask to trade other people's fund? I don't see the logic.
I do think making 100 times profit in a month consistently is within human capacity and I am experimenting such a strategy. But your proof is too lame.
Set up an account at collective2.com, so people can see your true performance.
  • #10,522
  • Aug 27, 2022 3:12am Aug 27, 2022 3:12am
Quoting wmwmw
{quote} You are not going to convince people by your log. All your log can be PS . To convince people you will need to set up your record at collective2. Also 18 days record, even if it is true, is too short to prove anything. You will need 360 days at least. Assuming you can consistently make such performance, you will be the richest person in the world in a year. Why would you ask to trade other people's fund? I don't see the logic. I do think making 100 times profit in a month consistently is within human capacity and I am experimenting such...
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  • #10,523
  • Edited 3:50am Aug 27, 2022 3:31am | Edited 3:50am
Actually I do not understand what must happen that a FF membership is banned permanently.? KramerFX is already a known proven scammer. Why is he not banned ?
I mean if there are evidences and even new member see a reason to force their first post to make this scam be published here, I do not know why KramerFX is not banned permanently ? Maybe the older FF members do know reasons when FF gets active here as I do not understand it. It also looks TheFxLord' will make the same fate as KramerFX at least. And that misleading fantasy picture of TheFxLord from a role model in famous cinema movie where the actor is from Iceland or Ice World too.
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  • #10,524
  • Aug 27, 2022 5:11am Aug 27, 2022 5:11am
Total segue here, what do you guys think are the odds of this renewed push down on equities eliciting large payouts bankrupting smaller props?
  • #10,525
  • Aug 27, 2022 5:33am Aug 27, 2022 5:33am
Quoting Thoughts
Total segue here, what do you guys think are the odds of this renewed push down on equities eliciting large payouts bankrupting smaller props?
Since all the smaller props have a different rule than max daily drawdown on balance but on equity, there is no risk from b-booking in total. But there can be some variance of course. So for calculating the odds you would only need to know how much capital is behind them for payouts when there is negative vola for them. If they are longer in business and growth has not been exponential in recent times, then they also should built up enough capital from past challenge fees to cover payouts.
  • #10,526
  • Aug 27, 2022 5:42am Aug 27, 2022 5:42am
Hi Guys

So we know XL Trade is a prop firm. I have no experience of them so can't comment, but they have launched XL-trade AMA which seems like a glorified "losable bonus" arrangement. You put in, say $1000 and they multiply it up x 20 so you have $20k to trade, and 1:500 leverage on top. This appeals to me because I can vastly reduce my risk/target but still achieve huge growth on my initial investment (making 5% on the account makes you 100% on your investment) and the key benefits are that your open P&L can be negative and to an amount that exceeds the initial investment and profits made (no margin call when your initial amount is exceeded).

Now, of course this means everyone trades far higher than they would otherwise and XL's commission income is magnified enormously so that's what's in it for them.

I see the company behind them is a BVI Private Fund, and as such doesn't need to be regulated, but surely if they are taking client funds in and providing access to risk, then surely this is a Regulated activity and they should be licensed? Unless they are a white-label introducer (IB) to AVA where I believe their prop trades are routed? The conditions for trading this program are excellent, at least on the face of it, with EAs OK, news trading, holding over weekends, all good, but the withdrawal system is a bit of a concern. Not only is it once a month but even then subject to certain trading volume conditions and you have to give them 9 days prior notice of the withdrawal and be flat on withdrawal day, ie no trades open. Perhaps the most worrying is they say it is within their rights to refuse a withdrawal application (alarm bells ringing!) without giving a reason.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? How they are doing it? How it's structured so they can do this with Regulatory oversight? I see there has been one post in this thread recently about them refusing to make a payment, but 1 instance of this only, so maybe there are valid reasons why they did it. Any thoughts/opinions anyone? Thanks, and sorry for this overly long first post :-)
  • #10,527
  • Aug 27, 2022 6:24am Aug 27, 2022 6:24am
I got email from Funded next:

FundedNext has launched the Express Week with the aim to onboard talented traders. With a vision to provide the best profit opportunities, we are here to offer you,
7% Discount for 7 Days Only on Express Model Plans!

Sounds good but only problem is that their Express model is no better then their Evalauation model in fact it is a whole lot worse! Extra rules, less profit split and still have to wait 30 days for payout. Only benefit is that it is one stage model.
  • #10,528
  • Aug 27, 2022 8:01am Aug 27, 2022 8:01am
Quoting Thoughts
Total segue here, what do you guys think are the odds of this renewed push down on equities eliciting large payouts bankrupting smaller props?
I was thinking the same. Why not bigger props?

Let's hope there will not be surprise economic events like 9-13th June period, which led to sudden (unhedged?) moves, which gave us 500k earned trader.
  • #10,529
  • Aug 27, 2022 8:45am Aug 27, 2022 8:45am
Quoting Triple-T
Hi Guys So we know XL Trade is a prop firm. I have no experience of them so can't comment, but they have launched XL-trade AMA which seems like a glorified "losable bonus" arrangement. You put in, say $1000 and they multiply it up x 20 so you have $20k to trade, and 1:500 leverage on top. This appeals to me because I can vastly reduce my risk/target but still achieve huge growth on my initial investment (making 5% on the account makes you 100% on your investment) and the key benefits are that your open P&L can be negative and to an amount that exceeds...
XL Trade has known payout issues, see also here https://www.trustpilot.com/review/xltrade.net. I would not choose them among props, there are other better ones.
  • #10,530
  • Aug 27, 2022 9:57am Aug 27, 2022 9:57am
Quoting Thoughts
Total segue here, what do you guys think are the odds of this renewed push down on equities eliciting large payouts bankrupting smaller props?
Great question, as I am one of those folks that is concerned about the sustainability of these prop models as well. I know most are thinking "make as much as you can and who cares what happens". I am not a "hit and run" kind of trader so I do have a long term business plan in place which requires another 5 years or so of these firms surviving.
Couple of thoughts here........
1. I think I am one of a very small % that ever shorts the indices lol. I believe most folks just believe it's an infinite ride up. So, to me this is more of a concern on a bullish run.
2. As has been stated, the built in rules of most of these firms on how daily limits are calculated SHOULD limit risk on the firm side.
3. FTMO, in addition to the new way of calculating free margin announced last week has also announced yesterday, 1 lot on the indices now equals 1 contract as opposed to the 10 contracts previously. MFF has always been 1:1, TFF is as well, TFT, I believe, will now be the only one with 1 lot equal to 10 contracts. FTMO also announced last week with the free margin change, there is now a 50 lot max per order as well. I do not trade near this size so not sure if that is FX pairs only. There is no MAX TOTAL size, so you can still do multiple entries, but all of these moves certainly appear as if they are trying to limit exposure.
  • #10,531
  • Aug 27, 2022 10:20am Aug 27, 2022 10:20am
To me it looks like FTMO is concerned about large payouts. Which is their own fault because of their unique max daily loss rule which is based on balance only and can favor swing traders a lot when they scale into winning trades. These trades can cause such recently seen large payouts only. Otherwise it is too difficult to get a 500k to 1000k payout on a 400k funded account on a prop firm at all. So FTMO is only doing small changes and that after a long time period with the proven business model. I mean who is questioning that. But now they are trying to limit leverage and overall payouts too. So their copy trading model has problems, otherwise it does not make any sense to harm their traders with such new limiting rules. I thought it can be only better, only in favor to the trader because of the competition everywhere. Mistake. I mean it is an advantage when you can make marketing as a prop firm say 'we have the highest payouts among all'. So the only conlusion here is that their copy trading algorithm is not that good, whatever it is based on, we can only speculate. Of course if anyone would know how this copy trading would work, it could be dangerous for a prop firm that some traders are doing kind of arbitrage on it. When they then needed to copy more traders trades it could be less profitable for them.
  • #10,532
  • Aug 27, 2022 10:41am Aug 27, 2022 10:41am
Quoting TrAndy1
Actually I do not understand what must happen that a FF membership is banned permanently.? KramerFX is already a known proven scammer. Why is he not banned ? I mean if there are evidences and even new member see a reason to force their first post to make this scam be published here, I do not know why KramerFX is not banned permanently ? Maybe the older FF members do know reasons when FF gets active here as I do not understand it. It also looks TheFxLord' will make the same fate as KramerFX at least. And that misleading fantasy picture of TheFxLord...
I have zero sympathy for those that got scammed.

Kramer shows up with his amazing 3-day trade explorer. Then makes some intelligent-sounding posts in multiple threads to convince people he has experience and wisdom in the trading world.

Then opens his commercial thread offering people the opportunity to knowingly violate prop firm rules. Guarantees he will pass the challenge after you fork over the money like a lazy fool.

Bumps his thread religiously every 8 hours or so (get that money quick before he gets busted).

Pays some shill to post on his thread thanking him for passing the challenge.

Trading is hard, life is hard. Do the work. There are no shortcuts.

NO victims just lazy fools that tried to circumvent prop firm rules instead of putting in the work.

Self-righteous pompous ass expo33 over and out
Pride always comes before destruction.... -Proverbs 16:18
  • #10,533
  • Aug 27, 2022 11:00am Aug 27, 2022 11:00am
What I mean is that the FTMO recently seen large payouts is not a FTMO lonely problem. Their balance rule favors swing traders and it is easier to scale in swing trades when you have more time and room for the market to take a breath when one is doing a lot of leveraged trades here. But I think the entire prop firm industry will soon er or later wake up too. Their rules are suggesting they only do b-booking meaning they only take challenge fees to finance their payouts. The same scaling in could be done on every prop firm when it is done intraday within 1 day. Say you have a 10 pip stoploss and a 4:1 RRR trade, so a 40 pip profit target. Now one is thinking instead of risking only the initial 10 pips he/she is doing a trailing stop with scaling in every 10 pips. So when the trade is running in profits after 10 pips then the position is doubled, then doubled again at 20 pips and 30 pips gain. So after 40 pips gain with no more 10 pips drawdown in between the trader has 15 times the initial 10 pips risk in profits. So the initial 4:1 RRR trade ended in a 15:1 RRR trade. When one is risking 5% on this one trade, he/she has two chances. If it works out then one is already at 75% in profits for the account. Now just repeat it every week when there is a good opportunity. On a 600k funded account it would mean with a 80% profit split a 1500k payout, larger than any payout from all prop firms in history. And it is nothing impossible, it is doable, just bit more difficult than 1 swing trade only. Hmm...
  • #10,534
  • Aug 27, 2022 11:11am Aug 27, 2022 11:11am
Quoting Expo33
{quote} I have zero sympathy for those that got scammed. Kramer shows up with his amazing 3-day trade explorer. Then makes some intelligent-sounding posts in multiple threads to convince people he has experience and wisdom in the trading world. Then opens his commercial thread offering people the opportunity to knowingly violate prop firm rules. Guarantees he will pass the challenge after you fork over the money like a lazy fool. Bumps his thread religiously every 8 hours or so (get that money quick before he gets busted). Pays some shill to post...
Exactly. I lost money my first 2.5 years trading. I was a bit smarter than most and only played with $500-1,000 accounts, KNOWING I WAS GOING TO LOSE. Yet folks think they can look at some charts for a week deposit 5-6 figures and be a millionaire in a month or two. Then, when this doesn't occur, they are screaming and yelling at anyone who will listen what a scam trading is.
Same with props.....people with little to no experience thinking they are going to be rich overnight. Same folks then screaming scam over slippage at news and the spread on GBPNZD at rollover.
WE can blame it on the marketing, brokers and prop firms alike are selling dreams of overnight riches. However, that is marketing in general.....convincing someone they need or want something they probably DO NOT.
In the end, you have your own ability to do your own due diligence, evaluate the product or offer and YOU DECIDE if and when to purchase.
You are dead on, life is hard, trading is hard and ANYTHING worthwhile in life you want to achieve is going to require motivation, dedication and a ton of hard work. There is no such thing as good or bad luck......luck is simply when preparation meats opportunity.
  • #10,535
  • Aug 27, 2022 11:26am Aug 27, 2022 11:26am
Quoting TrAndy1
What I mean is that the FTMO recently seen large payouts is not a FTMO lonely problem. Their balance rule favors swing traders and it is easier to scale in swing trades when you have more time and room for the market to take a breath when one is doing a lot of leveraged trades here. But I think the entire prop firm industry will soon er or later wake up too. Their rules are suggesting they only do b-booking meaning they only take challenge fees to finance their payouts. The same scaling in could be done on every prop firm when it is done intraday...
Yes, very possible, but highly unlikely. 40 pip moves without a 10 pip pullback (which would hit the trailer) are pretty rare, unless news driven. If attempting during news, price usually spikes both ways, there is slippage, etc.
I truly think the answer FOR TRADERS AND FIRMS alike is much lower leverage. Traders can still make excellent money with 3:1, 5:1 on a 200K account. If you can net 50 pips per week with 3:1, you are still earning 5 figures monthly. Scale it to 1 million, you are close to $750K per year.........Good traders still make great money, prop firm has WAY lower risk.
The ONLY reason this would not work is if the firms TRULY do ONLY rely on challenge fees. Lower leverage would result in significantly lower revenue from fees as traders simply would not blow up as often or as quickly.
In reality, 3:1 is 30:1 and 5:1 is 50:1 based on the max loss, which is what your risk should be based on anyway.
  • #10,536
  • Edited 11:50am Aug 27, 2022 11:40am | Edited 11:50am
Just to make it clear why every prop firm can go bust, I put the numbers more clearly here. A 6:1 Reward-Risk-Ratio trade with a trailing stop and scaling in on every 1 (Reward in favor) means a 63:1 RRR when it works out. It is not something unseenable, but rare of course. Even a 9:1 RRR is sometimes possible, but of course not every week or month. Then the RRR goes up to 511:1 RRR for a 9:1 RRR trade without scaling. That means on a 600k funded account, the payout on a 80% profit split would be astronomically 12,264,000 USD or over 12 million for 1 payout. That would kill every prop firm which is not FTMO or MFF because of their size, I would say. You only need to plot a Renko chart for yourself too see how often a certain RRR would be possible. There are many times of very high RRR instances when you look for.
  • #10,537
  • Edited 2:19pm Aug 27, 2022 12:39pm | Edited 2:19pm
For friends of the idea of position sizing or scaling there is still one thing to mention to make this thought more complete. You can also do instant scaling in, meaning that on every point or pipette your position goes in favor making a new high for your equity you add to your overall position. Then you have the advantage of Euler too. That means that you will sooner profit from your RRR trade than double it on larger fixed points. That means a 4:1 RRR trade already has a ca. 54:1 RRR with scaling. A 5:1 RRR trade is 148:1 RRR, a 6:1 RRR basic trade is then already ca. 400:1 RRR trade and 7:1 RRR trade would be 1100:1 RRR. So you do not need to look for 9:1 RRR trade to make a fantastic trade, you can go much lower with instant scaling using the Euler figure in favor for your trading. Even a 3:1 trade is 20:1 ((2.72^3):1).
  • #10,538
  • Aug 27, 2022 1:16pm Aug 27, 2022 1:16pm
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote}...they also should built up enough capital from past challenge fees to cover payouts.
Hmm! One can only hope TrAndy..
  • #10,539
  • Aug 27, 2022 1:17pm Aug 27, 2022 1:17pm
Quoting solarpower
{quote} I was thinking the same. Why not bigger props? Let's hope there will not be surprise economic events like 9-13th June period, which led to sudden (unhedged?) moves, which gave us 500k earned trader.
I'm thinking these large moves, on a more frequent basis, are just about the corner..
  • #10,540
  • Aug 27, 2022 1:29pm Aug 27, 2022 1:29pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Great question, as I am one of those folks that is concerned about the sustainability of these prop models as well. I know most are thinking "make as much as you can and who cares what happens". I am not a "hit and run" kind of trader so I do have a long term business plan in place which requires another 5 years or so of these firms surviving. Couple of thoughts here........ 1. I think I am one of a very small % that ever shorts the indices lol. I believe most folks just believe it's an infinite ride up. So, to me this is more of a concern...
Sincerely, I love your patience!

I'm not sure about the risk being only to the upside, even in the retail space...you know the popular adage: if bull markets are like elevators, bear markets are like jumping out a window...retail do herd think really well..

It makes sense that the risk rules at most props should limit outsized winners, but do you really think they are robust enough for the kind of action on instant limit down days? (I'm sort of hoping it doesn't come to that btw, because of the real world effects)

I worry less for those who are hedged, but they are few and far between in my opinion..
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