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Real or Algo

  • #841
  • Mar 3, 2021 2:21pm Mar 3, 2021 2:21pm
Quoting GEfx
{quote} That is correct. The banks are not thinking about retail stops. They know the prices that will inflict pain/decision making/prompt action by other institutional traders and they will move the market to or beyond those price levels to make their point. But no one is thinking about our trading in the big picture. It just is not happening. However, it is a very handy piece of information to understand where they will push price to prompt a decision, and watch what happen to your trade, or make a trade, when they get there. It's critical to...
I agree with many of your comments except for the reason why the Algo is there in the first place. The algo is just the coding of the central auction algo that processes all the transactions, I believe it has a coding error that is exploited by the maker players.

If you can increase speed of the market by throwing massive orders on one side of the order book, you control direction.
If you remove massive volume from the charts, the Algo is coded by mistake to halt expansion and close orders until it returns to the highest density zone.

But if you guys and girls want to see how to trade alongside the big payers without any drawn down other than the spread, try removing all price and candles and just trade volume as it rolls in. Last night I was mainly focusing on EURUSD as all the money was here to be honest. I of course I can't see volume of the currency markets but I can see its reflection in the Futures market.

Here is CME 6E or EURUSD and you can see how I waited for the big players to exhaust all sellers before they Sold themselves, and so did I.
No candles, no price - just volume in units reflected from 6E and traded this information on the currency charts.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
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Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
  • #842
  • Mar 3, 2021 2:34pm Mar 3, 2021 2:34pm
Quoting RickM
{quote} I agree with many of your comments except for the reason why the Algo is there in the first place. The algo is just the coding of the central auction algo that processes all the transactions, I believe it has a coding error that is exploited by the maker players. If you can increase speed of the market by throwing massive orders on one side of the order book, you control direction. If you remove massive volume from the charts, the Algo is coded by mistake to halt expansion and close orders until it returns to the highest density zone. But...

Hi Rick,

Are your speaking of the volume that goes along with the MT4 charts & other charting software, or do we need another form of volume to remove all price & candles. This statement got my attention. Your views are most welcome.
  • #843
  • Mar 3, 2021 2:38pm Mar 3, 2021 2:38pm
Quoting ryuryu
To gain profits big player needs liquidity and guarantees. Stops are guarantees of liquidity.
To gain big profits, bankers manipulate direction by stacking huge huge orders on one side of a order book to clear out all current available buyers or sellers orders that the central auction algo can reach.
Kind of like buying all the lollies in a candy store so when the kids come in, they have to move to another store.
This candy store by the way only takes 15-17 bags of lollies (pips) to exhaust all nearby liquidity on GBPUSD. The spread distance to the next order cluster is too far away.

It sucks when the truth of thin liquidity hits you in the head like a barren lolly shop does.
Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
  • #844
  • Mar 3, 2021 2:45pm Mar 3, 2021 2:45pm
Quoting acetrader
{quote} Hi Rick, Are your speaking of the volume that goes along with the MT4 charts & other charting software, or do we need another form of volume to remove all price & candles. This statement got my attention. Your views are most welcome.
Yes, you need another source of volume to see how the Algo is humiliated by large volume from fat cats.
I will get myself in trouble if I talk anymore.

Just realise liquidity is just small clusters of orders scattered across a big expanse, deep liquidity is just a nice fable in a story book.
Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
  • #845
  • Mar 3, 2021 3:06pm Mar 3, 2021 3:06pm
Quoting RickM
{quote} Yes, you need another source of volume to see how the Algo is humiliated by large volume from fat cats. I will get myself in trouble if I talk anymore. Just realise liquidity is just small clusters of orders scattered across a big expanse, deep liquidity is just a nice fable in a story book.
Rick I get what you mean. Have to be very careful not to let The Genie of Of The Bottle, or the Cat Out of The Bag as the sayings go. The Algo & Fat Cat Police will come knocking & they need NO Warrant. Thank you for clarifying what I thought you meant.

Btw If you can, an opinion/view of all the Youtubers Traders trying to teach the masses how to Algo trade, or spot Algo trading on the charts.

Your views, thoughts & comments most appreciated.
  • #846
  • Mar 3, 2021 3:28pm Mar 3, 2021 3:28pm
Quoting acetrader
{quote} Rick I get what you mean. Have to be very careful not to let The Genie of Of The Bottle, or the Cat Out of The Bag as the sayings go. The Algo & Fat Cat Police will come knocking & they need NO Warrant. Thank you for clarifying what I thought you meant. Btw If you can, an opinion/view of all the Youtubers Traders trying to teach the masses how to Algo trade, or spot Algo trading on the charts. Your views, thoughts & comments most appreciated.
If you want to spot the ALGO, look for low volume breakouts with unusual speed or extreme market speed due to heavily weighted orders by fat cats.

Bottom line,

Trade against excessive large volume or trade against medium volume in a low volume environment
Trade with increasing volume on a breakout or trade with a pullback after a volume collapses

My favourite is to trade with a pullback after volume has collapsed.
I look for barren liquidity then trade against it
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Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
  • #847
  • Mar 3, 2021 3:29pm Mar 3, 2021 3:29pm
Quoting RickM
I agree with many of your comments except for the reason why the Algo is there in the first place. The algo is just the coding of the central auction algo that processes all the transactions, I believe it has a coding error that is exploited by the maker players. If you can increase speed of the market by throwing massive orders on one side of the order book, you control direction. If you remove massive volume from the charts, the Algo is coded by mistake to halt expansion and close orders until it returns to the highest density zone. But...
RickM, the main algo level sits at 1.21120. There's no chance the banks billions are able to trade above this level. Same like GU that keep falling as the bank billions challenge the algo top level 3 times shown on the chart.
Know what you trade
  • #848
  • Mar 3, 2021 3:44pm Mar 3, 2021 3:44pm
Quoting RickM
{quote} If you want to spot the ALGO, look for low volume breakouts with unusual speed or extreme market speed due to heavily weighted orders by fat cats. Bottom line, Trade against excessive large volume or trade against medium volume in a low volume environment Trade with increasing volume on a breakout or trade with a pullback after a volume collapses My favourite is to trade with a pullback after volume has collapsed. I look for barren liquidity then trade against it {image}
Rick, Thank you for that. Now one last question if I may. What is a source of the volume needed. What about the Tick Volume from MT 5 Futures Data?

Thank you for any info on this your able to share.
  • #849
  • Mar 3, 2021 3:47pm Mar 3, 2021 3:47pm
I am taking more and more interest in vol these days thx to RickM.

But for me I just view the usual mt4 tick-stuff as I don’t have the resources to examine it deeper & wider.

Our market still seems like an Algo to me, running our (retail) big picture.


Our mt4 data would come I believe from a group of (prime) LP’s that sit above our broker but below interbank & Tier.

(I feel sure that our LPs DO interact with IB & Tier as overflows & minor requirements seek to access “our” piddly liquidy - of which I again agree with RickM).


No one has yet been able to show me or convince me that our price feed is the same (prices) as that being traded on Interbank & Tier. So I must assume that ‘our’ Algo movements work within the LP level (ie retail).

And if NOT. Then this is huge because the next stage of belief would be that a master Algo then sits above our operations and above all those of any trading banks. That would be a Big Hand indeed should it exist.

I can work with our Algo operation (if I call it that) that works to present my screen with some (real or otherwise) price-data feed.


I see the same market behaviour day after day, chasing the same Targets, by looking at a 1hr chart for setup moves (fakes n flips, whipsaws and pin bar stop runs), then moving down to the 1min for chart entry AND exit (which is often at the next Target)

This all plays out so similarly for my view each day, fractally, right down to the 1min chart.


I guess I feel fortunate that the same number of buyers & sellers come in each day at similar times and make ALL their decisions, again, close to those swing targets allowing me to scalp for short periods, take small profits and then get on with my life (as I don’t ask too much from the markets, other than consistency).


These are great discussions of opinions and narratives.

And they show me, AGAIN, that there are many ways to skin the forex cat.

Enjoy the method you use, I say.
  • #850
  • Mar 3, 2021 3:48pm Mar 3, 2021 3:48pm
Quoting BWilliam
{quote} RickM, the main algo level sits at 1.21120. There's no chance the banks billions are able to trade above this level. Same like GU that keep falling as the bank billions challenge the algo top level 3 times shown on the chart.
That is a Vacuum point that will trap the Algo for a while so expect price to visit that exact number 30 -50 times on M1.
Although I have it at 1.2110 to the pip.
These Vacuum zones is where the story of the Algo really gets interesting - but please don't get me started here.
Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
  • #851
  • Mar 3, 2021 3:55pm Mar 3, 2021 3:55pm
Quoting BWilliam
RickM, the main algo level sits at 1.21120. There's no chance the banks billions are able to trade above this level. Same like GU that keep falling as the bank billions challenge the algo top level 3 times shown on the chart.
To me the bank and institutional traders are trading within the confines defined by the algo(retail traders are not in this picture). That's the narrative I understand. The why, how, what questions Idk the answer, I can't offer any explanation and I don't care to know. What I'm interested to know is not about the banks billion volume. I want to know the actual source, that's the math coded in the algo that paint the chart. EVERYONE talk in terms of a interbank FX auction market, that's what the official narrative that make logical sense. NOBODY dare reject this main notion. NOBODY. To do that is to make rubbish of EVERYTHING you have learnt about trading. Technical analysis becomes rubbish and useless. You can't possibly do that. I can understand the reason why traders will NEVER accept this notion of a single algo paint our chart, not the bank billions.

Quoting TimeTells
And if NOT. Then this is huge because the next stage of belief would be that a master Algo then sits above our operations and above all those of any trading banks. That would be a Big Hand indeed should it exist.
No matter how you slice it or make few consessions here and there, like EVERYBODY else you will never buy that. Prove it is what EVERYONE say.

As much as what a few members on here express their belief that a single algo move price just as what George proposed, NONE truly believe that's true. When put to the test NOBODY dare stand their ground.
Know what you trade
  • #852
  • Mar 3, 2021 7:43pm Mar 3, 2021 7:43pm
Would just like to to thank all those contributing to the thread, it’s becoming a great read. Opinions will obviously differ but thanks for keeping it cool.
  • #853
  • Mar 3, 2021 9:07pm Mar 3, 2021 9:07pm
Quoting BWilliam
{quote} To me the bank and institutional traders are trading within the confines defined by the algo(retail traders are not in this picture). That's the narrative I understand. The why, how, what questions Idk the answer, I can't offer any explanation and I don't care to know. What I'm interested to know is not about the banks billion volume. I want to know the actual source, that's the math coded in the algo that paint the chart. EVERYONE talk in terms of a interbank FX auction market, that's what the official narrative that make logical sense....
This point you are making is the reason for my questions earlier. No one offered an answer to even one question. For the belivers, the single algo just feels right, or you want it to be right, because that would be an answer to why things happen that you can't explain. In summary, some of you believe the single algo runs the forex, but can't explain how it works, who built it, where it runs, who paid for it, or who funds its activities and trades, etc. It's only a matter of time before someone speculates that it's run at Area 51 or by big foot.

A question was raised by several posters: why can't the G$ break 1.4007, or why can't the E$ break 1.2112 or 1.2110 (I have it at 1.21138)? It has to be an algo, because the banks, with their vast resources, would gladly punch a hole through those price levels. It can't possibly be that there was universal agreement among bankers that neither currency pair should trade above those price levels, or that the banks were settling customer transactions below those levels because customers won't sell or buy above those levels. The reality is, the answer is in gamma and delta, not algos. And a threat that any bank trader conducting business above those levels will be filling coffee cups at Starbucks tomorrow,

Good trading everyone!
  • #854
  • Edited 9:59pm Mar 3, 2021 9:36pm | Edited 9:59pm
AUDUSD is more spectacular where the algo set the high many hours ahead.

GBPUSD plays out exactly as I have written earlier. I wrote that post checking my phone in bed.
***Weekly open price on 22 Feb is 1.40094.

Quoting BWilliam
RickM, check your volume data.... What volume was transacted to drive the price up from day low in 1 hour? The algo code magically stop not beyond 1.40060. This number is important for this trading week. Market will either trade above or below it. If I were a swing trader I look to sell the rally tops.
There's more to just algo levels that I post on here. Much much more.
Algo levels is the simple thing that people can understand.

***Mt4 phone apps has no magical indicators, just simple useless standard tools.
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Know what you trade
  • #855
  • Mar 4, 2021 1:45am Mar 4, 2021 1:45am
Quoting GEfx
{quote} This point you are making is the reason for my questions earlier. No one offered an answer to even one question. For the belivers, the single algo just feels right, or you want it to be right, because that would be an answer to why things happen that you can't explain. In summary, some of you believe the single algo runs the forex, but can't explain how it works, who built it, where it runs, who paid for it, or who funds its activities and trades, etc. It's only a matter of time before someone speculates that it's run at Area 51 or by big...
I gave you an answer to your question.
Its a coding fault of the auction Algo exploited by the major players.
No one funds it, the fault offers the big money trader an advantage over the small coin trader to move price by dropping large funds on the opposite side of the order book.
So it’s just the big player creating patterns or perhaps I should say “painting candles” to suck in other price action traders who believe in witch craft.
Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
  • #856
  • Mar 4, 2021 3:26am Mar 4, 2021 3:26am
witchcraft and patterns, clues everywhere on the chart. SP500 CFD chart.
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on a postive roll...
  • #857
  • Mar 4, 2021 4:55am Mar 4, 2021 4:55am
Quoting RickM
I gave you an answer to your question. Its a coding fault of the auction Algo exploited by the major players. No one funds it, the fault offers the big money trader an advantage over the small coin trader to move price by dropping large funds on the opposite side of the order book. So it’s just the big player creating patterns or perhaps I should say “painting candles” to suck in other price action traders who believe in witch craft.
Traditional technical analysis will always be around no matter. Traditional strategy tend to look like witchcraft when we look back with our expanded knowledge. Few of us have left traditional TA to what I think is called quantitative techniques or QT in short. The main difference is in it's namesake an objective quantified approach based on math. We have shown the difference what QT strategy look like. There's nothing more to add to what's already posted on this thread.
Know what you trade
  • #858
  • Mar 4, 2021 5:38am Mar 4, 2021 5:38am
Day is over.

Again, for reasons only it can know, the Algo likes Targets.

I start by watching the unfolding 1hr chart candle movements
(inching or running up & down = slow or fast momentum).

I have some structural chart indis added, but only for big picture visuals
(the indis never determine the trade).

A trader could drop down to a 5min chart to see how it all sets itself up (with ‘new’ momentum), but I can do it all now just watching
the one hour, one candle movement. And then slip over to the 1 min chart for entry.

These two trades today below (for 19p) had me entering one early & one late, based on Targets.
(I had my reasons entering at the time though lol).


So yes, the Maths folk may be more PRECISE.
And a better long term trading option for someone starting out in forex.


Though, as Rmg said in a post above, there are clues everywhere on every chart.

And I do enjoy my own way


Quoting BWilliam
{quote}
There's nothing more to add to what's already posted on this thread.

I agree there BW.
So my last trade pics, they are all pretty much just the same anyway, in the end.

.
Attached Image(s) (click to enlarge)
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  • #859
  • Mar 4, 2021 6:03am Mar 4, 2021 6:03am
Quoting RickM
{quote} I gave you an answer to your question. Its a coding fault of the auction Algo exploited by the major players. No one funds it, the fault offers the big money trader an advantage over the small coin trader to move price by dropping large funds on the opposite side of the order book. So it’s just the big player creating patterns or perhaps I should say “painting candles” to suck in other price action traders who believe in witch craft.
I did see this, but I thought you were kidding. But you repeated it. So you must believe it. It makes no sense, but then again, nothing that has been said about the single controlling algo has made any sense. Let me get this straight: you've detected an error in the algo, whereby large banks can drop funds on the opposite side of their order book (opposite side of the order book, meaning what?) (and without this programming error, the banks would have to do what exactly to drop funds there?)(and the banks benefit from this activity how exactly? Is the basic idea here that they paint candle without actually deploying funds?) Let's say you're head of currency trading at a big bank, where you are responsible for the banks trading book. You are aware of this programming error in the "auction algo", and you are watching the various activities of your traders, when suddenly, you decide it's time to drop some large funds on....what? You do this because you want to paint some candles to sucker in the "small coin" guys. By implication, the large funds you are "dropping" on the "opposite side of the book" (does that mean you are hedging or something, like the book is currently net long but now you move it to neutral or net short in an attempt to "paint candles"?), and if it were not for this programming error, you would or should not be allowed to do this? I have about 1000 more questions about how this works, but you get my drift.
  • #860
  • Mar 4, 2021 6:06am Mar 4, 2021 6:06am
Quoting BWilliam
{quote} There's nothing more to add to what's already posted on this thread.
I agree, after one more piece of information. Once I've learned more about this auction algo coding error, I'm out of here.
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