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The5ers - Trading & Growth Program

  • #661
  • Dec 5, 2020 6:24am Dec 5, 2020 6:24am
Yeah,
There is nothing wrong with The 5%
But,
For the first time my question is how much risk I/you will use to?

6000*2%=120
250*2%=5

Then the target is

6000*6%=6360 (LOL)

With what risk I/you will take to trade?
120 means 3R
5 means 72R

Then I/you will think this way
275 for 6000 win 3R trade + 39 positions as additional = passed
275 for 250 win 3R trades (9) + 31 positions as additional = passed

But I think The5% doesn't offer this way of service.

As my post before,
275+skill+hardwork=51200
This is on my head cause losing money makes me shaken.
  • #662
  • Dec 5, 2020 6:31am Dec 5, 2020 6:31am
This is for another story,

Let's say that we are professional traders who are not able to give any documents to LMekz. (May our dream just same LOL)

But we have 40000 on our bank account.

Just give 275 and trade 1% of 6000 is never ever hard...

I think we must look and try again to look what The5% try to offer.
  • #663
  • Dec 5, 2020 10:26am Dec 5, 2020 10:26am
Beranger explains how he is using low risk strategy to succeed with The5ers.
Since The5ser's is on a real account, he is already got paid.
He is now one of our funded traders and is trading with a 52K forex funded account on our platform.
His next mission is to reach 10% of profit and double his funds to 104K.

Inserted Video
We are Forex traders - Come trade with us
  • #664
  • Edited 6:50pm Dec 5, 2020 1:28pm | Edited 6:50pm
Guys ... I always hope for a good translation of the text. More than 3 hours for writing and editing. Remember that and don't scold me.

Damn .... I shouldn't be surprised anymore, instead I keep doing it.
Incredible how an "innocent" post of mine created such an animated discussion.
I log in after 19 hours and find more than 2 pages with a total of 33 more posts.
Good. It is also nice that, despite the disagreements, he saw a civil discussion overall. Without biting each other's throats. I am happy with this.
PS:
The speech I often read, on the use or not of a prop company, applies to all ... I hope.

Now, I just can't answer all the points from all the participants. Everyone has their own reasons and their own vision, so I follow my reasoning.
A prop company (I mean legitimate and that pays regularly) is an advantage for all Traders.
1) the one who, for whatever reason, does not have enough funds to make a good result (in money) for month, and could earn more.
2) the one who has good ownership capital and sees no reason not to earn more.
They both win.

I'm not saying that The5%ers is the best in the world. Many might say the same thing about another company.
There are those who love Mercedes and hate BMW (and the opposite), those who love Ferrari and consider the McLaren inferior (and the opposite) and so on.
Even not going very far and staying in "our world", there are those who prefer to use a low time frame and those who prefer a high frame, those who prefer a high leverage and those who work only with a low one. And I could go on indefinitely.

I have read hundreds of times and on all threads of prop companies, the speech "your account really, is the max drawdown".

Let's talk about my example (at least one part):
Paid about 565$ (482€ at the exchange rate) for a 52000$ account with a 13000$ trial. Max Drawdown of 520$ Target 920$.
After the first few days of profit, I lost and got to 12737$ (-263$). I wrote about this, in a previous post.
If I had a personal account of 520$, I would now be at 257$ and would have to make over 100% to break even.
Instead I still had 12737$ and I had to recover "only" about 2.99%. A big difference.
Over time I recovered and touched about 13330$ (very close to +3%). At this time, the max drawdown was around 850$ (my hypothetical private account).
Starting at 257$ and reaching 850$, I'll let you count the %.
Would I have succeeded? I can't know, it certainly wouldn't have been as easy as making 3% from 12,737$.

Again, at that point I could have lost 850$ (and no longer 520$) before losing the "challenge". A challenge that, reached the target, would have led me to have a funded account of 52000$ (2080$ of a hypothetical personal account).

Now let's forget about the mental tricks.
And let's also forget the situation of a "trader" who does it as a hobby, so ... just to have some more money.
We are talking about a Trader with a capital T, or a person who buys and sells to live.
Do you constantly manage, every month, to earn from your private account, what you need to live?
Yes?
Good for you, but point 2 also exists.

But what if you are a hobbyist? Do you have 1000$ or less and are you "happy" if you make 100$ or less?
Yes?
Good for you, but point 1 also exists.

So everyone does his math and decides his life.
There is no right or wrong solution for everyone.
There is only the right solution for itself.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe
  • #665
  • Edited 11:13pm Dec 5, 2020 8:40pm | Edited 11:13pm
Quoting The5ersTF
The discussion around the loss limit comes to life every often. It is important to be aware that the program has different aspects as I have mentioned a few posts above. Nevertheless, in regard to the idea our 6K account can be reproduced with a 275 retail broker account is only theoretical and is not considering real-life conditions. Let me explain: 6,000 account with 1:6 leverage allows you 36,000 market value positions. With a $275 account, you would need to use 1:130 leverage. With the best (and rare) scenario, you will only profit, so with...
Here is the comparison of 2 accounts. The first one is enrolled in 5ers program and the second one is using their own broker to trade.
The 5ers account consists of $275 traders deposit and $5725 5ers deposit.
Each account loses $50 at each row but maintains the same buying power.
The 5ers account keeps the 1:6 leverage but in order for the private trader to maintain the same buying power, it's leverage has to go up with each loss.

After losing 4 consecutive times, the 5ers account has just one more chance to lose $50 but I doubt they are going to wait until the equity is exactly at $5750, So I think the account is pretty much done as demonstrated by Electric Savant's post.

D=Deposit
L= Leverage
BP=Buying Power

5ers Trader
D-----L---BP
6000 1:6 36000
5950 1:6 35700
5900 1:6 35400
5850 1:6 35100
5800 1:6 34800
5750


The private trader, in order to have the same buying power as the 5ers, has to have a larger leverage as demonstrated in a scaling fashion. That trader does not need to increase the leverage with every loss. They can just acquire a 1:500 leverage account and just keep it at that the entire time. By doing that, their buying power will always stay matched with the 5ers.

After 4 consecutive $50 losses, the private trader has also pretty much lost the account.

D=Deposit
L= Leverage
BP=Buying Power

Private Trader
D-----L----BP
275 1:131 36000
225 1:159 35700
175 1:202 35400
125 1:281 35100
75 1:464 34800
25

So, basically, the only difference between a 5ers account and a private trader's account is the leverage assigned to the account.
A trader who can not obtain a 1:500 leverage account or doesn't want to, then is helped by the 5ers deposit which acts only as a compensation to equalize the buying power of a private traders 1:500 leveraged account.

Therefore, the value of 5er's offering is the same as the value of a broker who provides 1:500 leverage.
The only advantage that 5ers offers is the juxtaposition of funds with leverage.
In addition, the private trader is left with $25 in their account after all the losses whereas the 5ers trader will have nothing.

Now, if the math in the above comparisons is not challenged, let's move to the same example with a winning trader:

5ers Trader
D-----L---BP
6000 1:6 36000
6050 1:6 36300
6100 1:6 36600
6150 1:6 36900
6200 1:6 37200
6250 1:6 37500
6300 1:6 37800
6350 1:6 38100
6400 1:6 38400

Deposit plus gains: $275+375=650
5ers Trader's share: $375/2=187.5


Private Trader
D-----L----BP
275 1:131 36000
325 1:112 36300
375 1:98 36600
425 1:87 36900
475 1:78 37200
525 1:71 37500
575 1:66 37800
625 1:61 38100
675 1:57 38400

Deposit plus gains: $275+375=650
Private traders share: $650.00


Difference: 650-187.50= $462.50


As you see. by a mere juxtaposition of dollar amount for leverage, The5ers gains $462.50 in profit.
Since the dollar amount that T5ers contributes will never depreciate or deplete this transaction is only a paper transaction.
In fact, there is no paper either. It's all virtual. That same $5725 can be transferred back and forth virtually indefinitely.
That amount is just a fixed prop. I mean a prop as in an object. It can be pulled out of a drawer like a block of wood, put in the account and in the event of gain or loss by the trader, it can be wholly and completely restored.

The only danger to that 'prop' is if the broker suddenly goes under and takes the money with it (which is an equal concern for all traders) or if just as the 5er's trader is about to taken out of the market due to maximum losses, there is a sudden catastrophic event causing a huge gap in the price of the pairs traded in the trader's account. Of course such events effect both the 5ers and the private trader but according to their amounts that they have deposited.


Conclusion:

1- A trader can create the exact environment that the 5ers offers on their own by simply signing up with a broker offering 1:500 leverage.
2- A trader earns $462.50 more if they go on their own with a 1:500 private account.


The calculations have been done only for the evaluation account.
The next levels may offer different results but bear in mind, the private trader makes and keeps all their profit, therefore, with each gain, their buying power also increase. The 5ers trader makes only 50% of their profit, so in the long run, there is a possibility that the 2 traders catch up with each other. (haven't done the calculations yet).


This analysis isn't made in order to criticize the 5ers or to be a troll to them or to complain about their fees or to establish the superiority of going private over signing up with the 5ers etc. It is meant as a factual, math based comparison that can be objectively verified for the purpose of making the right decision in enrolling in 5ers program or not.
Just as the 5ers scrutinize a trader's ability to make money and to manage the various aspects of their trading, a trader also should have the right to understand the particulars of a funder's program to access the suitability of it.

lastly, please don't hesitate to point out any errors I have made in the math or observations and also, please point out anything I may have missed to mention because I don't want to mislead anyone. Thanks.


The need to find out how much leverage is needed to match a 5ers 6K account came from this link:
https://www.forexfactory.com/thread/...4#post13298584

My calculation methods were based on formula provided in this link:
https://www.forexfactory.com/thread/...1#post13297431
  • #666
  • Dec 5, 2020 9:05pm Dec 5, 2020 9:05pm
It is just too far away dudes......

If there is someone wants to help me...

About another prop firm that offer 6 months of evaluation...

Please PM me....
  • #667
  • Edited 9:47pm Dec 5, 2020 9:32pm | Edited 9:47pm
Quoting nizent
It is just too far away dudes...... If there is someone wants to help me... About another prop firm that offer 6 months of evaluation... Please PM me....
I'm with you on that but you will be compensating for the length of time by having to make more profit with a little bit of the 6K which is basically your own money.
The 6 month evaluation offer was not mentioned as a negative or positive in my calculations, however, you will be turning $275 to $650 in 6 month to qualify.
That is a profit of 236% in 6 month either way.
The 6% in 6 month is based on a dollar amount that is equal to higher leverage.

I still insist that a trader does not have access to 6K even if it is made to look that way.
It's a mirage. Having money in your account and having access to it are 2 different things.
People are assuming having access to $250 worth of risk in a 6K account is the same as having access to $6000 in a 6K account.
In fact, it is advertised that way.

If $1,000,000 was deposited in your account and the cut off still remained at -$250, you could still not be able to trade larger sizes or lose more than $250.


However, if it psychologically boosts your confidence to think you are making 1% per month because you have 6 K in your account and it sounds so possible, then by all means. The trick will have made a win win outcome and everyone will be happy.
  • #668
  • Dec 5, 2020 11:04pm Dec 5, 2020 11:04pm
Quoting OutThere
{quote} I'm with you on that but you will be compensating for the length of time by having to make more profit with a little bit of the 6K which is basically your own money. The 6 month evaluation offer was not mentioned as a negative or positive in my calculations, however, you will be turning $275 to $650 in 6 month to qualify. That is a profit of 236% in 6 month either way. The 6% in 6 month is based on a dollar amount that is equal to higher leverage. I still insist that a trader does not have access to 6K even if it is made to look that way....
@OutThere -- sounds to me like you are still trying to convice yourself. It's all good -- you don't have to enroll -- it's optional...
  • #669
  • Dec 5, 2020 11:18pm Dec 5, 2020 11:18pm
Quoting robots4me
{quote} @OutThere -- sounds to me like you are still trying to convice yourself. It's all good -- you don't have to enroll -- it's optional...
OK, looking forward to your interview when you make it. Your chart better look like his too.
https://www.forexfactory.com/thread/...4#post13298744

He tried a few times and finally got it.
I hope you make it the first time.
  • #670
  • Dec 6, 2020 12:20am Dec 6, 2020 12:20am
Quoting OutThere
{quote} OK, looking forward to your interview when you make it. Your chart better look like his too. https://www.forexfactory.com/thread/...4#post13298744 He tried a few times and finally got it. I hope you make it the first time.
Now I know where side you choose...
My opinion is the stoploss is the account not the account itself.
As my post earlier.

The 275 program is 250 with target 375 so it's about 150%.
I know and really do that what I have is 5 dollars risk whatever I trade from my own account or The5%.

I do really understand what you really want to tell.

6 months to get 150% is achievable for skillful trader. Not every aspired traders wannabe.

This is what you want to say

Why would you trade with them when you are able to trade in the same amount of risk?

Cause the evaluation is evaluation means you need to prove it and when you are still in evaluation you get nothing. No one believes that you are real profitable trader.

Why I defend The5% ahhhhhhh...

But after you get passed this is what The5% wants to offer you that you can't get from your own money.

275 with gain 150% in 6 months is (LOL I don't know) 600.
So you have 600 as it your own account.

With them, what you get?
Is 1000 stoploss.

Additional that we must think ofcourse
Cause this is really matter.
24K*10% means 2400 this is the target with 1000 stoploss.
Means 1000 with gain 240% will achieve 2000 stoploss and so on.

With our own account.
600 gain 240% means 2040.

This is really really do what you want to tell.

There is no reason to trade with them unless you don't forget that trade with them you can take the profit but not with your own account if you want the same fast paced.

Yeah what different is not really big as the profit itself.

Additional is legal documents???
Not everybody has same condition and situation.
And
Retail broker you choose....
I guess not everbody able to create account based on good regulator.

They actually really have math to their own program.....
It is not too good to be true program.
But it is worth for skillful traders.
  • #671
  • Dec 6, 2020 12:43am Dec 6, 2020 12:43am
Quoting nizent
{quote} Now I know where side you choose... My opinion is the stoploss is the account not the account itself. As my post earlier. The 275 program is 250 with target 375 so it's about 150%. I know and really do that what I have is 5 dollars risk whatever I trade from my own account or The5%. I do really understand what you really want to tell. 6 months to get 150% is achievable for skillful trader. Not every aspired traders wannabe. This is what you want to say Why would you trade with them when you are able to trade in the same amount of risk? Cause...
All you need to know about getting funded as you make more and more is to look at these columns:


This is the maximum risk you can take at each level regardless of the balance deposited in your account:

Maximum
Loss
1-$800.00
2-$3,200.00
3-$6,400.00
4-$12,800.00
5-$25,600.00
6-$51,200.00

To finish each level, this is how much you have to make with that money:

Milestone
Target
1-$1,400.00
2-$8,000.00
3-$16,000.00
4-$32,000.00
5-$64,000.00
6-$128,000.00

This is the percentage of gain you are making in each level in order to achieve the goal:

1- 175%
2- 250%
3- 250%
4- 250%
5- 250%
6- 250%

Piece of cake. With your determination you'll do it.

Now if you want to base the % gain on the balance deposited in your account including the portions you can't toush, then this is how it looks like:

1- 7%
2- 10%
3- 10%
4- 10%
5- 10%
6- 10%

Hint: If you want to have to do better, pretend you have twice as much balance in your account and then you can half the above percentages but note that
the playable amount in your account (first column) will stay the same.
  • #672
  • Dec 6, 2020 12:59am Dec 6, 2020 12:59am
Quoting OutThere
{quote}Conclusion:
1- A trader can create the exact environment that the 5ers offers on their own by simply signing up with a broker offering 1:500 leverage.
2- A trader earns $462.50 more if they go on their own with a 1:500 private account.
Exactly my point. Do you want to trade 1:500? How many traders have you seen who are consistently trading 1:500? I hope you remember that this is just the initial phase, the next step you get 4 times the account size and then, twice the size for every milestone. Would able to imitate this organically?

On top of that, you get 50% of the profits in the account, while keeping the growth. This is something that cannot imitate with a self-funded broker account.

Your math is isolating each scenario's pros and cons. That is OK, however when you are trading over time, eventually you would face all scenarios. The deep DD, and Profit, The profit extraction and growth. The5ers offers a well-balanced program for all of these under one solution. Trading is a game of risk management. All scenarios should be composed of one solution that answers as many scenarios.


Cheers
We are Forex traders - Come trade with us
  • #673
  • Dec 6, 2020 1:07am Dec 6, 2020 1:07am
Quoting OutThere
{quote} All you need to know about getting funded as you make more and more is to look at these columns: This is the maximum risk you can take at each level regardless of the balance deposited in your account: Maximum Loss 1-$800.00 2-$3,200.00 3-$6,400.00 4-$12,800.00 5-$25,600.00 6-$51,200.00 To finish each level, this is how much you have to make with that money: Milestone Target 1-$1,400.00 2-$8,000.00 3-$16,000.00 4-$32,000.00 5-$64,000.00 6-$128,000.00 This is the percentage of gain you are making in each level in order to achieve the goal:...
Man you don't read.
I actually debate you.
Ah this man is..... Such a.....
  • #674
  • Dec 6, 2020 1:24am Dec 6, 2020 1:24am
Quoting The5ersTF
{quote} Exactly my point. Do you want to trade 1:500? How many traders have you seen who are consistently trading 1:500? I hope you remember that this is just the initial phase, the next step you get 4 times the account size and then, twice the size for every milestone. Would able to imitate this organically? On top of that, you get 50% of the profits in the account, while keeping the growth. This is something that cannot imitate with a self-funded broker account. Your math is isolating each scenario's pros and cons. That is OK, however when you...
Ok, so I'm not inventing falsehoods. right?
I am pretty much pulling all numbers and calculations and relations from your site and posts and videos.
If you feel confident that all is true, then thanks for your confirmation.

As for do I want to trade 1:500, the outcome is exactly the same. If someone lets their dd go to the near max in a 1:6 leveraged account (using up all margin available), it is just like they are maxing out a 1:500 account.
If someone with The5ers uses half of their margin, it's like someone in 1:500 account is using half their margin.
Just because you are trading a 1:6 leverage account, it doesn't make you any safer. To be safe, you need to be at 1:1 or less.
  • #675
  • Dec 6, 2020 1:24am Dec 6, 2020 1:24am
Before I think you choose a side that opposite from The5%.
But I know you are not a trader but a talker.
That doesn't really want to choose any option but TALK.

I really mean it OT.

And you know, I don't really want to know about something from TALKER like you.

Just like hear false GURU.
  • #676
  • Dec 6, 2020 1:39am Dec 6, 2020 1:39am
Quoting OutThere
{quote} it is just like they are maxing out a 1:500 account. If someone with The5ers uses half of their margin, it's like someone in 1:500 account is using half their margin. Just because you are trading a 1:6 leverage account, it doesn't make you any safer. To be safe, you need to be at 1:1 or less.
Right 1:500, before scaling up 4 times on the first target, and twice for every next target that follows.
If you insist on looking at the program from a one-dimensional view, it is definitely won't make any sense for you.
We are Forex traders - Come trade with us
  • #677
  • Dec 6, 2020 1:51am Dec 6, 2020 1:51am
Quoting The5ersTF
{quote} Right 1:500, before scaling up 4 times on the first target, and twice for every next target that follows. If you insist on looking at the program from a one-dimensional view, it is definitely won't make any sense for you.
Sorry but declaring that you give a trader 1.28 million to trade when you are allowing the use of only $51,200.00, is not like giving them 1.28 million.
If that is a one-dimensional view, then maybe there is just a one dimension there.
However, you choose to present things your way because it does attract more attention and brings in more traders. I understand.
  • #678
  • Dec 6, 2020 2:32am Dec 6, 2020 2:32am
Quoting OutThere
{quote} Sorry but declaring that you give a trader 1.28 million to trade when you are allowing the use of only $51,200.00, is not like giving them 1.28 million. If that is a one-dimensional view, then maybe there is just a one dimension there. However, you choose to present things your way because it does attract more attention and brings in more traders. I understand.

I think you continue to mislead yourself and others.
When we provide 1.28 million is the base account before leverage applied.
How have you come to the conclusion it is before leverage?
We are Forex traders - Come trade with us
  • #679
  • Dec 6, 2020 2:45am Dec 6, 2020 2:45am
Quoting OutThere
{quote} Sorry but declaring that you give a trader 1.28 million to trade when you are allowing the use of only $51,200.00, is not like giving them 1.28 million. If that is a one-dimensional view, then maybe there is just a one dimension there. However, you choose to present things your way because it does attract more attention and brings in more traders. I understand.
@OutThere -- dude -- it's called MARKETING. The @the5ers is a company. They are in business to make money. To make money they need customers. To attract customers they need to promote features they think will attract customers. Business 101 -- no, actually, Common Sense 101. And if you wish they would present details differently so as not to upset your fragile sensibilites that's fine -- apply for a job on their marketing team.

First you don't understand their trading model, and now you are into their marketing? @Koop was right. He must be ROTFL, LHAO...
  • #680
  • Edited 3:32am Dec 6, 2020 3:20am | Edited 3:32am
Quoting The5ersTF
{quote} I think you continue to mislead yourself and others. When we provide 1.28 million is the base account before leverage applied. How have you come to the conclusion it is before leverage?
I calculated the buying power of the 2 amounts given as per your instructional video.

1,280,000 1:6 7,680,000 Buying power


51,200 1:150 7,680,000 Buying power


Your 1.28 million funding in a 1:6 leverage account has the same buying power of 51,200 in a 1:150 leverage account. Incidentally, $51,200 is what the usable amount is in a 1.28 million account. You've just dressed it sexy and put a bow on it.
You maximized the look of generosity of doling out funds to the tune of 1.28 million while also basing an expectation of making a target profit of $128,000 on that figure. At the same time, the trader is getting $51,200 with an effective leverage of 1:150. So, basically. the trader is expected to use $51,200 and make a profit of $128,000 with it.

By inflating the dollar amount to 1.28 million and by restricting the leverage to 1:6, you are making a 51,200 account with 1:150 leverage look look it is a lot bigger than it is.

As you mentioned before, this come to life once in a while. This is not the first time this has been mentioned to you. In fact you are very aware of the mechanics of it and hope more people don't catch on.

My question is; how do you expect to attract such brilliant traders able to trade so well to grow their accounts from $275 into 1.28 million and at the same time, you expect them to not notice the details behind the numbers?

Whatever you are doing is working because not many people are getting it.
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