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CHOROS System

  • #15,501
  • Jun 21, 2020 12:58pm Jun 21, 2020 12:58pm
Quoting iero4
Dear all, I just had a meeting with a very experienced trader. Actually he is a golden boy. Head of exotic equities trader in Citi bank and he has been head of Europe trading exotics in Stanley and Morgan. He now has his own hedge fund in London so I arranged a meeting in his summer house next to my place. I wanted to take his opinion about our strategy... If you have watched any video of Antony Kreil you will understand what it was like...my mind is completely blown . He talked about being crypto-long or crypto-short in a position ....



I agree with your friend to some degree. We cannot beat institutional money and algos ( not on a large platform anyways ) - however we have an edge they do not have. that is that we can enter the market or choose to sit on the bench. They cannot sit on the bench and wait for perfect entries they have to get to work always. We can get into a trade once the direction is confirmed ride their push and out quickly and before its finished. I would hazard a guess as to why Kostas1 makes his daily target in 3-4 trades then leaves it alone.. he knows that institutions move price to suit their requirements and provide liquidity. 10-15 pips is better than none and Break even is better than minus 20... these small wins add up over 200 trading days to massive wins when compounded. If we get in and out cleanly then we can win in the long term by taking short term targets and staying in control psychologically and following a plan/strategy with iron discipline. Every time i have lost a trade that hurt, i have moved a stop or entered or exited on a hunch outwith my plan... if i lose and i executed the plan then it doesn't hold any emotional pain for me. I just move on to the next.

We have to hold to a plan that suits us individually. Its been proven time and again that people with exactly the same plans do not make the same outcomes. I use parts of this and what i have learned on this thread but i incorporate it with other things i have learned from other books and other threads and conversations about trading with others. I am thankful for these learning opportunities every day. I also like people with opposing views. I love to try and understand why they have those views - maybe they know something i don't and maybe i can incorporate it.

i said on another thread on Friday to someone else- i say this daily to myself and its stuck with me for years
" we win or we learn" when we lose a trade we have an opportunity to learn why - sometimes it means nothing and we must lose in this game as no one has a 100 percent win rate - but we must humbly accept loss as part of our plan, even when we lose a trade we win in the end if we can understand the learning opportunity"

regards
Dave
  • #15,502
  • Jun 21, 2020 1:40pm Jun 21, 2020 1:40pm
Interesting stuff.. 2 similar things has stuck in my mind as well

1. I attended a seminar with a similar guy (the kind of guy that gets inverviewed by cnn), he have more than 20 years of experience from working at a broker (and trading himself) and he said that in those 20 year, out of thousands and thousands of traders, he only came across 1-2 traders that impressed him (consistently profitable)
2. There was a case in my country were two ex-employees working for a reputable broker went to the press telling them the 'dirty secrets' about brokers and they basically said that when someone insert money into an account they consider it theirs since they would be lost for sure.

Being retail traders we can have a slight edge in the market at best, but I guess there is no guarantee this will also 'work' in the future. The market is heavily influenced by algo's, it will be interesting to see if it will change the market somehow.

That being said I have come across successfull retail traders myself (all trading very differently from each other) and none of them became successfull until at least 5 years.

Quoting iero4
Dear all, I just had a meeting with a very experienced trader. Actually he is a golden boy.
  • #15,503
  • Jun 22, 2020 1:20am Jun 22, 2020 1:20am
Quoting iero4
Dear all, I just had a meeting with a very experienced trader. Actually he is a golden boy. Head of exotic equities trader in Citi bank and he has been head of Europe trading exotics in Stanley and Morgan. He now has his own hedge fund in London so I arranged a meeting in his summer house next to my place. Iero
Iero, thanks for the info. Always interesting to get a peak at the other side.
My view of the forex market can be seen in the photo below:
1. We swim in a sea (of money)
2. Your friend is the whale shark in the middle
3. We are the small fish around him, trying to grab small bites
4. If we get too close to his mouth we become his food....
5. Solution: Get close, grab a bite, get away fast (MaxiPip got the point)

Keep in mind that small bites in a market of trillions has several 0000's

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: whaleshark.jpg Size: 109 KB
  • #15,504
  • Jun 22, 2020 1:54am Jun 22, 2020 1:54am
No one has a crystal ball. Stick with what works for you, and you will always be a winner.
  • #15,505
  • Jun 22, 2020 2:00am Jun 22, 2020 2:00am
Quoting kostas1
{quote} Iero, thanks for the info. Always interesting to get a peak at the other side. My view of the forex market can be seen in the photo below: 1. We swim in a sea (of money) 2. Your friend is the whale shark in the middle 3. We are the small fish around him, trying to grab small bites 4. If we get too close to his mouth we become his food.... 5. Solution: Get close, grab a bite, get away fast (MaxiPip got the point) Keep in mind that small bites in a market of trillions has several 0000's {image}
Kosta you are right...I tell you that after the conversation with him, I was a little bit disappointed but after some hours I am back to where I was. I tried last night to study and refresh my knowledge from university about statistics (Kurtosis, Skewness etc) but this staff is not for us. It is not for day trayding. These guys use statistical tools mainly for long term trayding and for different instruments. They use these formulas to catch the beggining of big moves etc. We are scalpers, we follow the big fish and take bites as you said.
You are allowed to fall but you are imposed to get up!
  • #15,506
  • Jun 22, 2020 4:30am Jun 22, 2020 4:30am
kostas is a living proof that this is possible.. it is more or less 10 years since you posted the famous curve where you started making 3-9% per day, which are crazy returns and no one would stick around something for 10 years if it was not working long term
How has your trading progressed in those 10 years? Has it been a smooth curve upwards or did you have periods (weeks, months (perhaps years)) with the curve also declining?

Quoting kostas1
{quote} Iero, thanks for the info. Always interesting to get a peak at the other side. My view of the forex market can be seen in the photo below: 1. We swim in a sea (of money) 2. Your friend is the whale shark in the middle 3. We are the small fish around him, trying to grab small bites 4. If we get too close to his mouth we become his food.... 5. Solution: Get close, grab a bite, get away fast (MaxiPip got the point) Keep in mind that small bites in a market of trillions has several 0000's {image}
  • #15,507
  • Jun 22, 2020 4:31am Jun 22, 2020 4:31am
Trading is meant to be simple so don’t over complicate it. We are all very good at over complicating everything.
  • #15,508
  • Jun 22, 2020 4:38am Jun 22, 2020 4:38am
Quoting mtruefx
kostas is a living proof that this is possible.. it is more or less 10 years since you posted the famous curve where you started making 3-9% per day, which are crazy returns and no one would stick around something for 10 years if it was not working long term How has your trading progressed in those 10 years? Has it been a smooth curve upwards or did you have periods (weeks, months (perhaps years)) with the curve also declining? {quote}
When you start with a small account 3% is easy. When the possible profits (and losses) are bigger numbers you reduce risk. Also the curve is not always smooth (fore example I learned quickly to avoid a lot of trading in August, December, early January, bank holidays, etc.)
Overall, you can get a very-very healthy living once you know what to do.
With iero's post, I remembered that some years ago, I was contacted by bigger fish that wanted to learn more about longer term experience with Choros and some wanted to invest with me. Couldn't do it since I was worried using other people's money. Some of those trading offices were using similar trading techniques to ours, for their faster trading accounts.
  • #15,509
  • Jun 22, 2020 6:14am Jun 22, 2020 6:14am
Here is my chart for today.

I am going to study more today and leave the market alone for a few hours now
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
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  • #15,510
  • Jun 22, 2020 7:51am Jun 22, 2020 7:51am
Quoting iero4
Dear all, I just had a meeting with a very experienced trader. Actually he is a golden boy. Head of exotic equities trader in Citi bank and he has been head of Europe trading exotics in Stanley and Morgan. He now has his own hedge fund in London so I arranged a meeting in his summer house next to my place. I wanted to take his opinion about our strategy... If you have watched any video of Antony Kreil you will understand what it was like...my mind is completely blown . He talked about being crypto-long or crypto-short in a position ....
"you and I don't know anything. I know THAT for sure."

is my signature. and I mean it.

in the middle of march i used up 100% of my share quota and bought stocks.
although the best fund managers in the world such as warren buffet, george soros, stanley druckmiller, etc... advised against it and are now standing on the sidelines with a lot of cash. i have outperformed them many times now.

what the man who may have been successful in his field has told you is irrelevant. he can't see into the future any more than any of us here.

I wouldn't give anything for what he says.

And neither should you hear me;-)
trading is like dancing, don't think and just listen to the music!
  • #15,511
  • Jun 22, 2020 8:08am Jun 22, 2020 8:08am
Quoting kostas1
{quote} Iero, thanks for the info. Always interesting to get a peak at the other side. My view of the forex market can be seen in the photo below: 1. We swim in a sea (of money) 2. Your friend is the whale shark in the middle 3. We are the small fish around him, trying to grab small bites 4. If we get too close to his mouth we become his food.... 5. Solution: Get close, grab a bite, get away fast (MaxiPip got the point) Keep in mind that small bites in a market of trillions has several 0000's {image}
excellent post and describes very good our daily work and profession.

it reminds me on this funny game i played years ago:
https://www.crazygames.com/game/fish-eat-fishes
trading is like dancing, don't think and just listen to the music!
  • #15,512
  • Jun 22, 2020 8:53am Jun 22, 2020 8:53am
Today's trade

AU which 2 bars pull back and touch M15 35/50

And exit with 5 pips and 10 pips.
Attached Image
  • #15,513
  • Jun 22, 2020 9:26am Jun 22, 2020 9:26am
Quoting iero4
{quote} Kosta you are right...I tell you that after the conversation with him, I was a little bit disappointed but after some hours I am back to where I was. I tried last night to study and refresh my knowledge from university about statistics (Kurtosis, Skewness etc) but this staff is not for us. It is not for day trayding. These guys use statistical tools mainly for long term trayding and for different instruments. They use these formulas to catch the beggining of big moves etc. We are scalpers, we follow the big fish and take bites as you said....
Now from what I know statistics are lagging too, since there is no such thing as a statistics without past data.
MTN
  • #15,514
  • Jun 23, 2020 6:30am Jun 23, 2020 6:30am
what the man who may have been successful in his field has told you is irrelevant. he can't see into the future any more than any of us here. I wouldn't give anything for what he says. And neither should you hear me;-)[/quote]
Indeed...for me is like I never did this conversation...I stick to my plan and go on...
My only and big problem with trading is the psychology ☹

Although I am profitable with this strategy, my biggest 2 problems are greed and not accepting those few loses when they happen

I am fighting with myself really hard so any suggestions would be great from those who have managed to win those emotions...
You are allowed to fall but you are imposed to get up!
  • #15,515
  • Jun 23, 2020 7:01am Jun 23, 2020 7:01am
Quoting Marcelomtn
{quote} Now from what I know statistics are lagging too, since there is no such thing as a statistics without past data.
Statistic is based on hard data ... is not lagging, just describing PAST. Not FUTURE.
We are using statistic of the PAST to figure out what a future might be... to Predict future best tool is a Cristal Ball but some say its lagging too...
"There is a random distribution between wins and losses for any given set of variables that define an edge/system. In other words, based on the past performance of your edge, you may know that out of the next 20 trades, 12 will be winners and 8 will be losers. What you don't know is the sequence of wins and losses .
“Trading in the Zone”, Mark Douglas"
IT IS NOT complete TRUE... you can get 80 looser in a row and still have 60% win rate ...
BN
  • #15,516
  • Jun 23, 2020 8:33am Jun 23, 2020 8:33am
an untypical h4 35/50 trade.
confluence with RN 1.2500 and TL,
good for +20 pips
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: GBPUSDH4.png Size: 57 KB
trading is like dancing, don't think and just listen to the music!
  • #15,517
  • Jun 23, 2020 8:48am Jun 23, 2020 8:48am
Quoting iero4
what the man who may have been successful in his field has told you is irrelevant. he can't see into the future any more than any of us here. I wouldn't give anything for what he says. And neither should you hear me;-)Indeed...for me is like I never did this conversation...I stick to my plan and go on... My only and big problem with trading is the psychology ☹ Although I am profitable with this strategy, my biggest 2 problems are greed and not accepting those few loses when they happen I am fighting with myself really hard so any suggestions would be great from those who have managed to win those emotions...

1) try multi-bullet strategy to avoid losses.
for example you want to short at 1.2500 and your stop would be at 1.2520.
instead of closing the position short a second position and close both at 1.2500
you will make BE on the first trade and +20 on the second one.
you can play this also with a third position or more (mulit-bullet).
BUT i would only do it when the higher timeframes are all in line with the main trading TF, like M15
H1 and H4 should be also in a great shorttrend.

important is also that you need to know when you are wrong. then it will be a big loss.
advantage: you will have 85-90% winrate and its good for your psycho and ego.

i learned a lot from trader "davit" here on ff.



2) rather take R:R 1:1 trades or less so you will get a 70% hitrate and its also better for your psycho or ego than waiting for a big trend.
trading is like dancing, don't think and just listen to the music!
  • #15,518
  • Jun 24, 2020 3:12am Jun 24, 2020 3:12am
this was a GU m5 first touch of 10EMA.
i took it only for +8 pips.

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: GBPUSDM5choros.png Size: 48 KB


you can also see it as a first 35/50 touch on the m1 chart.

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: GBPUSDM1choros.png Size: 46 KB
trading is like dancing, don't think and just listen to the music!
  • #15,519
  • Jun 24, 2020 4:12am Jun 24, 2020 4:12am
Quoting birdland
this was a GU m5 first touch of 10EMA. i took it only for +8 pips. {image} you can also see it as a first 35/50 touch on the m1 chart. {image}
We took the same
You are allowed to fall but you are imposed to get up!
  • #15,520
  • Jun 24, 2020 9:44am Jun 24, 2020 9:44am
Hey guys,

you've a very interesting discussion right there. Although personally I woudn't get discouraged too much by what your friend said iero. Surely it's interesting to hear that side of the story and he isprobably right in terms of we won't make billions with this strategy as maybe he strives to. However if you refer to Clays document "Learning to Dance - My Story" - now that is something inspiring and something to live by! It's optimistic, it's encouraging and simply put it makes you believe that's it's possible to become a very successful retail trader, at least it does for me. Considering this strategy originally dates back to 2010 with many many markets not just forex, I'd say it withstood the test of time :-) Also it's so cool to see people like Kostas still being around after all those years, trading sucessfully with the Dance.

However these are just my 2 cents to the recent discussion :-) Actually I came by to ask another question: Do you guys trade days with very very high volatility? I'm talking about for example 17.03.2020 and 18.03.2020 when the Corona shit really hit the fan. I'm currently backtesting GBPUSD and in these days it's insanely difficult to trade with the usual SL distance between 10 and 15 pips, because in these days price often moves these distances within the shortest of time. Therefore also often violate S/R by enough to take out the stops in the usual distance. On the other side of course it offers huge potential gains of 80 pips or more if you enter correctly. Still I find myself entering 5 times wrong for 1 times right in these days, which still doesn't really making worth it...

Regards,
Methos
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