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No Stop Loss Trading

  • #21
  • Apr 26, 2019 6:35pm Apr 26, 2019 6:35pm
If people understood that if they apply one or two basic patterns and some basic risk manager is enough to succeed.
Instead of trading without controling the risk.

As just an example the simple technique of a channel breakout:
Assuming that we are in a bullish trend and the price is creating a consolidation channel, when the price break the channel in the direction of the trend is the entry and the sl is at the bottom of the channel and we control our risk.
Of course with an experienced trader this technique can be optimized for better results.

Yes, is a very simple and basic technique and there are others that applied correctly is enough to succeed.

This is not a race, it's a marathon.
POW!
  • #22
  • Apr 26, 2019 11:42pm Apr 26, 2019 11:42pm
besides the fun of growing a small account.

how do I generate volume with a stop loss you **** ? have you ever heard about volume rebates ?

learn basic English.
THE OP SAID IN BOLD:

"Step 0= Start with very little money and make it grow....I repeat make money out of nothing and draw-down will give you 0 stress."



and you invite him to give up the idea , why is that ?
  • #23
  • Apr 26, 2019 11:44pm Apr 26, 2019 11:44pm
LOL @ the "stop loss / drawdown" police.
  • #24
  • Apr 27, 2019 12:00am Apr 27, 2019 12:00am
i dont use a stop loss , i am not my brokers friend and i see a few comments on this thread from a few people who work for them
people leave, but this thread will go on for ever
  • #25
  • Apr 27, 2019 2:01am Apr 27, 2019 2:01am
Not using stops is fine, PROVIDED you donīt get caught in a black swan.
Remember EURCHF 1500 pip drop in minutes, a couple of years ago?
Granted, fixed stops were mostly not honoured by brokers anyway.
Excuse: ...."no one to take the other side of the stop"..

It could work using maybe half of your account, and keeping the rest in your private bank, in case you get margin called.
AND provided you get NEGATIVE INTEREST PROTECTION, new ESMA ruling in Europe.
Otherwise you might end up giving back years of "no stop profitable trades", and loose your house and car on top.
Just calculate the loss of a leveraged trade with a 1000 pip DD!
My humble 2 cents.
And yes, stop loss, or rather stop running are the biggest retailer enemies.
  • #26
  • Apr 27, 2019 2:31am Apr 27, 2019 2:31am
Quoting cuchuflito
Not using stops is fine, PROVIDED you donīt get caught in a black swan. Remember EURCHF 1500 pip drop in minutes, a couple of years ago? Granted, fixed stops were mostly not honoured by brokers anyway. Excuse: ...."no one to take the other side of the stop".. It could work using maybe half of your account, and keeping the rest in your private bank, in case you get margin called. AND provided you get NEGATIVE INTEREST PROTECTION, new ESMA ruling in Europe. Otherwise you might end up giving back years of "no stop profitable trades", and...
i never trade chf and the black swan was predicable the peg was going to be go >>>> where was that not a signal to get out of chf , i have a large account and i do not use a stop-loss i do love spikes and push a few boundaries , its not for every trader i manage my account very well after 30 odd years of trading , my question to you is DO THE BANKS USE A STOP-LOSS
people leave, but this thread will go on for ever
  • #27
  • Edited 3:28am Apr 27, 2019 3:10am | Edited 3:28am
I see some polite people, but mostly functional illiterates that cant read beyond no sl.

I said 1 post but will expand a little in this final post for the polite people.


There is a very simple fact of trading 1 -- The market moves in waves it does not infinitely move in one direction forever and ever.
Simple fact of trading 2 --- Price will always revert to the mean but the mean will move and adapt with price. (drop a random MA and see that no matter how far price moves from the MA it will always return to touch it)

Therefore Step 1 starts with those simple facts.


Step 1 = Find a method that picks extreme price movements- This means that you will try to enter at the end of a price movement/wave that is beyond extended/exhausted ,stop hunting, wtf when is it going to stop moving. So even if you are not trading at the very peak and it goes against you it wont move against you for very long.


Step 2= Once price is at its extreme point start adding orders and wait for the retracement or reversal (NEVER OVER-LEVERAGE your entries must survive a big miscalculation on your part and still have enough room to keep adding orders until the peak)


Never Over-leverage means your account will not blow up. We are not taking scalping size entries, the ones that suggest this is case are just dumb.


Step 3= ????


Step 4=Price average done right = Big profits and beautiful equity curb


Step 0= Start with very little money and make it grow....I repeat make money out of nothing and draw-down will give you 0 stress.


This is no magical "use no Sl" and hope to win.

Everything starts with Step 1, you must develop an entry methodology you believe in and that works.
What not using a SL will do its...make your Step 1 method a winner


Repeat with me Never Over-leverage means your account will not blow up.

Example
Trading a $500 at .01 lots means that you need negative 5000 pips to blow up... have you ever fkd up by a margin of 5000 pips in drawdown?

Once you feel confident and have some working method you can increase the trade size and build up from little money.

Say you started with $500, then protect those $500 do not lose them, anything above your deposit money is free money to increase your trade size.

Do not over leverage but aggressively reinvest the profits into trade size.

Your account will grow and so will do your confidence and you will feel nothing about drawdown-- you are only risking your initial investment.

At some point your fingers will sweat and that means that at this point you feel pain from the money at risk, so its best to try to do it again from small to increase your pain tolerance to big accounts.

If your account blows up well evaluate and adapt but at the very minimum protect your deposit money or withdraw often.
If you did it once, then you can do it again and again until its no longer "luck".


Step Final Goal= Your account grows to decent size, you reduce the risk exposure and comfortably farm pips at trade size where your account will never be in risk but still makes big profit.




We are in the discussion section so this is my road map for a potential way to trade from zero with no stop loss, all in all this is useless information without the right mindset and proper method 1 so its a self journey.




Just in case ----No I will tell you how I do it.


Good luck to you should you ever decide to go this path.

Feel free to post some screenshot of your trade explorers to prove how wrong I am.... I just LOL at the oxygen wasters that must state their toxic opinions.
Dragon Rider
  • #28
  • Apr 27, 2019 3:34am Apr 27, 2019 3:34am
Quoting barloc
I see some polite people, but mostly functional illiterates that cant read beyond no sl. I said 1 post but will expand a little in this final post for the polite people. There is a very simple fact of trading 1 -- The market moves in waves it does not infinitely move in one direction forever and ever. Simple fact of trading 2 --- Price will always revert to the mean but the mean will move and adapt with price. (drop a random MA and see that no matter how far price moves from the MA it will always return to touch it) Therefore Step 1 starts with...
people leave, but this thread will go on for ever
  • #29
  • Apr 27, 2019 4:36am Apr 27, 2019 4:36am
Trying to understand where to enter in a trade and where to put the stop is crucial ... comes with experience.
But, I understand the "no SL trading" referred here.


PS: Thatīs why trading is so difficult
POW!
  • #30
  • Apr 27, 2019 8:15am Apr 27, 2019 8:15am
I frequently visit this site, but I mostly stay hidden or not commenting at all. But I would like to share something on this topic.

I have been trading intermittently in the past due to inconsistent results. Most of the time, I lose money. This has changed when I found a strategy that allows me to trade without stop loss. The moment I stopped using stop loss was the time I got profitable! I have been trading a year or two using this method, and my equity curve is consistently going up with a big profit factor!

However, this is not possible without a solid strategy that can give you almost 100% certainty of success!
  • #31
  • Apr 27, 2019 9:19am Apr 27, 2019 9:19am
Quoting fxprimate
Trying to understand where to enter in a trade and where to put the stop is crucial ... comes with experience. But, I understand the "no SL trading" referred here. PS: Thatīs why trading is so difficult
For me; trading with SL is difficult but trading without SL is quite impossible.
  • #32
  • Edited 10:00am Apr 27, 2019 9:31am | Edited 10:00am
Quoting barloc
I see some polite people, but mostly functional illiterates that cant read beyond no sl. I said 1 post but will expand a little in this final post for the polite people. There is a very simple fact of trading 1 -- The market moves in waves it does not infinitely move in one direction forever and ever. Simple fact of trading 2 --- Price will always revert to the mean but the mean will move and adapt with price. (drop a random MA and see that no matter how far price moves from the MA it will always return to touch it) Therefore Step 1 starts with...
There will only be one post from me and no follow ups, this just some information for whoever wants some inspiration on No SL.
lol ok...

the no stop loss theory always looks good on paper. In reality this is how it looks like

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: Capture.JPG Size: 32 KB


so they always propose the "low leverage" posittions to avoid being margin called in a DD. The whole no stop loss method relies on the market to revert back to the mean (i.e trade at the extremes).

Sure, i don't disagree that the market will do that MOST of the time. In fact, forex market is the perfect market for you no stop loss crowds. It's the one asset class that normally do not trend for very long. it's also the one market with excessive leverage (non industry standard) that gives the small guys a chance with this

But couple of things that you don't take into account

1. opportunity cost - you are sacrificing margin call for little gain for the possibility of reversion if you get caught in a strong momentum.

2. emotional response to DD after building the account up nicely for weeks or months. I've see people tilt knowing that their account is about to go bust after few months of work in that "trend trap".

So usually they will choose either.

a) leave the trade alone and hope for the best
b) increase size for subsequent positions within the setup to get the avg price higher to capture the smaller reversion so they can get out at b/e or slight profit

I've seen that for the most part people will choose "b". My uncle Lmoney chooses choice "a". I've seen both in TEs

This EMOTIONAL RESPONSE IS ALWAYS UNDERSTATED WHEN THE NO STOP LOSS TRADER IS FINALLY CAUGHT IN THE RUN AWAY TREND

either way, the forex market punishes you for waiting by charging your overnight positions. So your opportunity cost just turned worse if you had just exited and re assess and trade with the momentum.

The only "benefit" i see in your proposal is this "withdrawal frequency". I totally agree that the sooner you withdraw you original risk, the better. But that doesn't change the mechanics of this stupid strategy. You're basically tyring to predict to avoid the "trend trap" hoping that if you get caught in one, you can just "restart".

Well that's how low level players think in my opinion. Playing the slot machine with pennies and hoping for a big payout.
  • #33
  • Edited 10:17am Apr 27, 2019 10:00am | Edited 10:17am
Quoting NeilWagner
{quote} For me; trading with SL is difficult but trading without SL is quite impossible.
Find a basic pattern like for example the channel BO in my other post and go with the flow.
Try the horizontal channel BO for a start.

Set the SL at the other side of the channel.
Itīs basic, simple and works

Any doubt just say
Cheers
POW!
  • #34
  • Apr 27, 2019 10:31am Apr 27, 2019 10:31am
Quoting hilmy83
{quote} There will only be one post from me and no follow ups, this just some information for whoever wants some inspiration on No SL. lol ok... the no stop loss theory always looks good on paper. In reality this is how it looks like {image} so they always propose the "low leverage" posittions to avoid being margin called in a DD. The whole no stop loss method relies on the market to revert back to the mean (i.e trade at the extremes). Sure, i don't disagree that the market will do that MOST of the time. In fact, forex market is the perfect market...
If No SL works normally is because market is almost all time in range. That explains because many trades are recoverablew. Where No SL can fails in is long time trends but that is trader task know when close it ( understand moment is trend and not range )...
Try don't lose pants never...
  • #35
  • Apr 27, 2019 10:57am Apr 27, 2019 10:57am
Quoting braintheboss
{quote} If No SL works normally is because market is almost all time in range. That explains because many trades are recoverablew. Where No SL can fails in is long time trends but that is trader task know when close it ( understand moment is trend and not range )...
exactly. exiting manually is trading with stops. hence i put out the two options in my original response. But for people who think they can ALWAYS count on market reversion and just rely on 'small positions' as risk management is just nonsense to me.

then again, if you do think i'm wrong, lets see credible data to support it with significant timeline.

i hate discussions without data. most of you should be lawyers by your ability to reason with hot air..
  • #36
  • Apr 27, 2019 11:33am Apr 27, 2019 11:33am
Quoting hilmy83
{quote} exactly. exiting manually is trading with stops. hence i put out the two options in my original response. But for people who think they can ALWAYS count on market reversion and just rely on 'small positions' as risk management is just nonsense to me. then again, if you do think i'm wrong, lets see credible data to support it with significant timeline. i hate discussions without data. most of you should be lawyers by your ability to reason with hot air..
I never say you are wrong. I only pointed why No SL concept fails. People thinks No SL is not close never and that is wrong. For me No SL means not hard stop but closing bad trades since you cant be sure all trades will recover ( you have many examples in charts with movements never recovered ).

I agree with you is not reliable let trades forever. Question is when you have do it. It depends trader. In my case is clear the rules as I posted in my MM thread

Only thing I'm sure is wrong about SL is use hard stops ( its show broker your ass ). But you are right about manual closes are SL ( hidden and dynamic ). Regards
Try don't lose pants never...
  • #37
  • Apr 27, 2019 11:55am Apr 27, 2019 11:55am
Why not hedge instead of using a stop loss?
  • #38
  • Apr 27, 2019 12:00pm Apr 27, 2019 12:00pm
Quoting braintheboss
{quote} I never say you are wrong. I only pointed why No SL concept fails. People thinks No SL is not close never and that is wrong. For me No SL means not hard stop but closing bad trades since you cant be sure all trades will recover ( you have many examples in charts with movements never recovered ). I agree with you is not reliable let trades forever. Question is when you have do it. It depends trader. In my case is clear the rules as I posted in my MM thread Only thing I'm sure is wrong about SL is use hard stops ( its show broker your ass...
umm, you misunderstood to whom i was directing my post to.
  • #39
  • Apr 27, 2019 12:12pm Apr 27, 2019 12:12pm
Quoting hilmy83
{quote} umm, you misunderstood to whom i was directing my post to.
Sure. You know my english is not good
Try don't lose pants never...
  • #40
  • Apr 27, 2019 12:14pm Apr 27, 2019 12:14pm
Quoting STrading
Why not hedge instead of using a stop loss?
Its a good way for soft DD. But only works if you use different pairs. "Hedge" is same pair enters in area of martingale or other failed strategies...
Try don't lose pants never...
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