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The Loneliness of the Long Distance Trader

  • #121
  • Nov 22, 2018 5:48am Nov 22, 2018 5:48am
About limits, I spent years, Monday to Sunday, every moment I was awake looked at price on charts to figure out how the market works. Learnt to code mt4, wrote my own indicators by the thousands that sadly don't work. I seek answers to every question about price that need an answer. From the computer to the phone in bed. It is an obsession to figure out the market. I pushed to the max limit of what I am capable of - I discovered I am capable of more than what I was aware of in the push process. The cost is high, very high to be honest. Too high that most people may not want to pay. I am not bright so to someone else with the right educational background and better brains they may have done it a lot easier and quicker - not me.

What I am saying is trading is not easy, probably the most difficult profession to excel. The cost to achieve it is very, very high. If I didn't push to max limit I will not make it. I had invested too much in that failure is not an option anymore. That's how I reach my destination. For me - my story.

Quoting cat
{quote}Taking an unreasonable chance? There are two ways of defining this with regards to trading, the first is our decision to become traders, which, if we look at the odds against us becoming successful, means that the very first step we make is by taking an unreasonable chance, which makes us all guilty.
I am not certain if I will take this unreasonable chance again given that now I know how high the cost is.
  • #122
  • Nov 22, 2018 6:14am Nov 22, 2018 6:14am
Quoting robots4me
{quote} I think you are taking his use of the word "limits" too literally. Knowing and accepting one's limits not only frees you to experiment but also enhances your enjoyment and chance for success. "Understanding our limits" does not mean to not try something new or not to push yourself -- it simply means to be truthful with oneself. Take your cycling example -- you say that you know you'll never win the Tour de France -- i.e. you do understand your limits. As a result, when you cycle and continue to improve your times then you get enjoyment...
Not really, because darko did not define exactly what he meant by ' limits '. here's his whole paragraph-

" To me, trading is about growing up as a person and learn to respect the market the same way we have to respect each other. We can refuse to participate in the market, the same way we can refuse to participate in a relationship of any kind, but not understanding our limits, taking unreasonable chances, and thinking we can change what we can only accept is a path to bitterness and sometimes madness "

The key words in this are in fact " thinking we can change what we can only accept ". But what is it that we are accepting here, because we are talking about trading, not about life or growing older, and what are these limits, because they have to be defined in this context? I know my limits as a cyclist, at least my biological ones, so with all the will in the world, I am extremely unlikely to keep cycling faster indefinitely. But other limits do not exist because no matter how old I become or how slow I cycle, I can continue to grow and improve in the non-physical sense until the day I drop dead...hopefully on my bike when I'm well over one hundred years of age!

Understanding your limits means " to be truthful with oneself " in your words. Does it? darko never said this. Actually, I wrote something for my Trading Academy thread only last night upon this very subject if you want to pop over there and have a look, but at least for me, being true to yourself and understanding your limits have only an adverse relationship for trading, the former meaning to identify and fully realize your weaknesses as a trader with a view to setting about to rectifying them, whilst the latter implies acceptance of that which cannot be achieved, implying defeat, which is not ignoble by the way. Not identifying our weaknesses and continuing to trade, and lose, without taking real, concerted steps towards change, can , and probably will, as darko says, lead to bitterness, or even madness.
  • #123
  • Nov 22, 2018 6:59am Nov 22, 2018 6:59am
@cat -- good stuff to read -- thanks...

It might be we are on the same page but are stumbling over terminology -- I can't tell. Here's my favorite quote from Theodore Roosevelt -- I think you would agree...

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”
  • #124
  • Nov 22, 2018 7:13am Nov 22, 2018 7:13am
Quoting robots4me
@cat -- good stuff to read -- thanks... It might be we are on the same page but are stumbling over terminology -- I can't tell. Here's my favorite quote from Theodore Roosevelt -- I think you would agree... “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort...
  • #125
  • Nov 22, 2018 8:38am Nov 22, 2018 8:38am
Quoting skyway
About limits, I spent years, Monday to Sunday, every moment I was awake looked at price on charts to figure out how the market works. Learnt to code mt4, wrote my own indicators by the thousands that sadly don't work. I seek answers to every question about price that need an answer. From the computer to the phone in bed. It is an obsession to figure out the market. I pushed to the max limit of what I am capable of - I discovered I am capable of more than what I was aware of in the push process. The cost is high, very high to be honest. Too high...
Thats the thing you cant look at charts and figure out how the market works as its designed to be counter intuitive. I spent 7 years trying to understand and figure it out and thought I need a great deal. It wasn't until I received training from a professional institutional trader did I realise how little I actually knew.
Boxing clever since 76.
  • #126
  • Edited 9:13am Nov 22, 2018 9:00am | Edited 9:13am
Quoting robots4me
{quote} @darko2010 -- I really liked your post. And I'm hoping for some additional guidance. According to the dictionary the definition of stoicism: "...the endurance of hardship without complaint...". But, come on, complaining is half the fun. And if I shouldn't complain, then I hope it's still okay to feel sorry for myself. I mean, otherwise, why get up in the morning? (I'm kidding...) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8NVLq2fGLc
Thanks for the kind words. The dictionary doesn't do justice to stoicism as it a holistic manual to living life devoid of suffering caused by primal intincts. You can check https://www.philosophybasics.com/branch_stoicism.html if you want a better understanding.

Complaining, as you bring it up, is an irrational reaction. Either you know what you are doing (including getting up in the morning) and you inherently accept the associated positive and negative consequences this decision may bring, or you don't, in which case you are a leave blown away by the wind, not knowing where you will end up although you hope it will be a good place. Trading is no exception to that analogy.
  • #127
  • Edited 9:39am Nov 22, 2018 9:12am | Edited 9:39am
Quoting cat
{quote} Great post darko, but limits should not be something any of us should be factoring into our journey, neither is an inability to change that which we know needs changing. Taking an unreasonable chance? There are two ways of defining this with regards to trading, the first is our decision to become traders, which, if we look at the odds against us becoming successful, means that the very first step we make is by taking an unreasonable chance, which makes us all guilty. Second is the act of engaging the markets with our money, which applies...
Thanks Cat, this is these kind of obersvations that give away the fact that English is not my primary language (it is actually the 4th)...
As I read my post, I realize that I should have used "limitations" instead of limits, as I guess the former better describes the notion of elements that are not in our hands to alter compared to the latter which, at least in your mind, is something one can change with work and dedication.

Anybody can run faster and longer with training and perseverance, but, try as you might, you can't be 15 feet tall. My use of "limit" was in that sense.

I suscribe to everything else you wrote, obviously.
  • #128
  • Nov 22, 2018 9:36am Nov 22, 2018 9:36am
Quoting skyway
About limits, I spent years, Monday to Sunday, every moment I was awake looked at price on charts to figure out how the market works. Learnt to code mt4, wrote my own indicators by the thousands that sadly don't work. I seek answers to every question about price that need an answer. From the computer to the phone in bed. It is an obsession to figure out the market. I pushed to the max limit of what I am capable of - I discovered I am capable of more than what I was aware of in the push process. The cost is high, very high to be honest. Too high...
Thanks for your honesty, very refreshing in a world of billionnaire retail traders on FF...

I suck at trading despite my best efforts, but I recently realized that success in trading was not about effort but acceptance, hence my comment on stoicism.
A surfer cannot make a wave appear, change directions or stop, he can only learn to surf on it, he can also refuse those that are too dangerous to ride and those that won't provide enough enjoyment. The surfer does not fight the wave, nor does it command it. Equally, I need a non-adversarial approach to trading, developing that may be viewed as an effort for some, but if this is an effort, trading is not necessarily the primary area in one's life to work on...

The same works in my opinion on many other aspects of life that cannot be altered with effort but patience and respect, as I also mentioned previously.
Trading is a relationship with the market, you can't woo, seduce, threaten or command it. You can just enjoy the ride when it is postively inclined towards you, like a woman (if you are a male heterosexual, that is)...
  • #129
  • Nov 22, 2018 9:52am Nov 22, 2018 9:52am
Quoting darko2010
{quote} Thanks Cat, this is these kind of obersvations that give away the fact that English is not my primary language (it is actually the 4th)... As I read my post, I realize that I should have used "limitations" instead of limits, as I guess the former better describes the notion of elements that are not in our hands to alter compared to the latter which, at least in your mind, is something one can change with work and dedication. Anybody can run faster and longer with training and perseverance, but, try as you might, you can't be 15 feet tall....
Understood. Anyway, it really doesn't matter what any of us say, because this business being what it is, there will always be debate over the many aspects of trading, much to discuss, much to relay, conflicting points of view etc, but at the end of it all, we are all still in our own private battle, and it is within ourselves, and only within ourselves, that the battle can be won.
  • #130
  • Nov 22, 2018 10:56am Nov 22, 2018 10:56am
Quoting cat
{quote} Understood. Anyway, it really doesn't matter what any of us say, because this business being what it is, there will always be debate over the many aspects of trading, much to discuss, much to relay, conflicting points of view etc, but at the end of it all, we are all still in our own private battle, and it is within ourselves, and only within ourselves, that the battle can be won.
Not to seem insistant, but I found a text that better describes what I meant for the benefit of the readers of this thread:

The single most important practice in Stoic philosophy is differentiating between what we can change and what we can’t. What we have influence over and what we do not. A flight is delayed because of weather— no amount of yelling at an airline representative will end a storm. No amount of wishing will make you taller or shorter or born in a different country. No matter how hard you try, you can’t make someone like you. And on top of that, time spent hurling yourself at these immovable objects is time not spent on the things we can change.

Return to this question daily—in each and every trying situation. Journal and reflect on it constantly. If you can focus on making clear what parts of your day are within your control and what parts are not, you will not only be happier, you will have a distinct advantage over other people who fail to realize they are fighting an unwinnable battle.
  • #131
  • Edited 6:12am Nov 23, 2018 5:47am | Edited 6:12am
Quoting skyway
The cost is high, very high to be honest. Too high that most people may not want to pay.


Unfortunately sometimes your family (and friends) are not willing to pay that price.

Maybe this is the price some of us have to pay to succeed in this.

It is just as brutal as the actual learning process, on top of self doubt you receive doubt from everyone else they all want to see you fail and get back the usual grind the misery not necessarily intentionally although some might but you see what I mean.

This may eventually drive some out and back to 9-5.

Indeed the cost is HIGH except for those who're looking to do something else after retirement.

I too probably wouldn't have started if I had known how much I had to endure and the pressure I get from those who are closest to me besides of course self doubt, self hate, frustration I do put on myself. I have no one but myself to keep on pushing. So indeed it's a "very" "very" lonely road and it sure does make you reflect on a lot of things. I have become bitter after everything I went through since i started on this journey - maybe its me growing old or maybe this is what the road to consistency (or success) feels like, but was it worth it ?

At the end of the day people can be too selfish to just listen to each other.... we all play "you don't understand me" part but no one is willing to "listen" sad but the truth.
...
  • #132
  • Nov 23, 2018 8:20am Nov 23, 2018 8:20am
Quoting Piquant
{quote} Unfortunately sometimes your family (and friends) are not willing to pay that price. Maybe this is the price some of us have to pay to succeed in this. It is just as brutal as the actual learning process, on top of self doubt you receive doubt from everyone else they all want to see you fail and get back the usual grind the misery not necessarily intentionally although some might but you see what I mean. This may eventually drive some out and back to 9-5. Indeed the cost is HIGH except for those who're looking to do something else after...
Sometimes in life, we have come just too damned far to give up. As long as we still believe in what we are doing, we MUST carry on, indeed it is the only way to find out whether or not we will eventually succeed. If we don't, then at least we will know that we gave it everything, but to surrender to the pressures and challenges of becoming one of the very few who make it in this business without ever having got there, is something we will take to our graves.

If it's killing you and you've lost the passion, give up, but if you know you're on the right track, no matter how rough a road it is, carry on!
  • #133
  • Last Post: Nov 24, 2018 4:51pm Nov 24, 2018 4:51pm
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